A song of ice and fire will change big time

[garion77]

I think ASOIAF ending will change big time... Since the HBO series, I bet GRRM has changed a few things about how he was planning on ending everything... A Game Of Thrones on HBO is such a massive hit, it's the most streamed TV series on TV... It's also only second in ratings to True Blood which has been on years longer. They say viewer ship for AGOT will bypass True Blood on HBO in the next year...

In other words, it's a massive cash cow... GRRM will make more money from one season of the TV shows (especially when it go into syndication) than he make from all books combined... And it's important to HBO that he don't turn off casual viewers who would never read the books. He will not screw up his cash cow (HBO) and all the new viewers wouldn't like if the series went too dark and not ending it somewhat happily...

I am a writer myself (you might not be able to tell that by my spelling...LOL) but I sat down with a few producers and directors from HBO in LA a few months ago and rule #1 of TV Series/movie writing... Make sure the viewers are somewhat happy with the ending... It's a reason why most movies are almost identical in the plots...

You have Independent movies who buck the tread but don't make much money and you have summer blockbusters that make billions rehashing the same plot with different characters and actors. Once ASOIAF became Hollywood, A bitter end to the series went down the tubes...

You can already start seeing it in ADWD... Nothing major happened and only one main character somewhat died and no one was really in any situation where you thought they wouldn't make it... Completely unlike the first books...

Just saying...

 

[kshRox]

I thought the addition of gratuitous sex, violence and sadism in ADWD may have been influenced by the success of the HBO adaptation. There has always been sex, violence and sadism in ASOIAF but I felt the dial was turned up in this last book and actually it put me off.

However I imagine it sells well on film.

 

[juleska]

I can buy off on the ending of the series changing significantly for the show, but affecting the books, I don't know. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

 

[The Imp]

I think that GRRM is well aware of the fact that it's the popularlity of the books that dirves the series, rather than the reverse. I do not see him changing the books to meet the needs of a TV audience, as the writers of the show can do that after the fact, as they've already proven. Also, I think you may be greatly underestimating how much money GRRM gets from the sale of his books, not only aSoIaF but others as well. He doesn't seem like the type to sell out to make a few more bucks from TV, in fact, he's said this when talking about why HBO was able to sell him on the idea of the series after others had tried and failed.

 

[kshRox]

I think that GRRM is well aware of the fact that it's the popularlity of the books that dirves the series, rather than the reverse.

I think you may be greatly underestimating how much money GRRM gets from the sale of his books, not only aSoIaF but others as well.

He doesn't seem like the type to sell out to make a few more bucks from TV, in fact, he's said this when talking about why HBO was able to sell him on the idea of the series after others had tried and failed.

I'm not sure about your first point. Many viewers never have, never will read the books while most readers will watch the series (imho).

I wonder if there are any stats on his revenues.

Who knows what 'type' GRRM is?
I don't know him but a friend of mine who met him got a pretty negative impression of him (this is of course anecdotal and GRRM may have been put-off by a fan recognizing him). My understanding is before ASOIAF he was published but not particularly popular, nothing like he is now.

Again, I think he lost control of his story and sold out. Although I disclosed on another thread that I was very disappointed by ADWD which probably colors my judgement.

A Game Of Thrones on HBO is such a massive hit, it's the most streamed TV series on TV...

In other words, it's a massive cash cow... GRRM will make more money from one season of the TV shows (especially when it go into syndication) than he make from all books combined...

 

[Needle]

I have to disagree with you garion. I do not see GRRM changing the books for the sake of the HBO series for many reasons. We will not even talk about how many of his readers he would piss off!

1. Regardless of how big the series is, the author's share of the revenues from a film or tv series is minimal compared to their share of revenue from their books. True it has created an entirely new buzz surrounding the books and sold more books but this has no impact on series revenues for GRRM.

2. Changing the books would, in reality have little or no effect on what HBO chooses to do with the series.

The only author of our time who has the cloat to maintain control of his stories on screen is Stephen King. He has made the statement (rough quote here) that after he sold the rights to Children of the Corn he learned that this included the title. He was horrified at what followed, 5-6 terrible sequels. Now the only way his stories can be changed on screen is if he allows it. Those stories that are most important to him remain under his control or they don't get them, simple as that.

If you need a further example of what Hollywood can do to a story check out Legend of the Seeker! Supposedly Terry Goodkind's Sword of Truth. I get teed off just reading the episode info on my dish guide!

 

[The Imp]

I'm not sure about your first point. Many viewers never have, never will read the books while most readers will watch the series (imho).

I wonder if there are any stats on his revenues.

Who knows what 'type' GRRM is?
I don't know him but a friend of mine who met him got a pretty negative impression of him (this is of course anecdotal and GRRM may have been put-off by a fan recognizing him). My understanding is before ASOIAF he was published but not particularly popular, nothing like he is now.

Again, I think he lost control of his story and sold out. Although I disclosed on another thread that I was very disappointed by ADWD which probably colors my judgement.

My first point is probably the most irrefutable of any I made. If the books weren't REALLY popular they wouldn't have asked GRRM to do the HBO series.

As for who GRRM is, my opinion, based on lsitening to many of his interviews, is that he's a man of principle and is totally fixated on getting the story "right" If he was worried about milking a cash cow he would have churned out all 7 books by now and been on to something else. Anyone who trashes half of a very long novel becuase they weren't happy with it is NOT IMO driven by finances.

 

[Overread]

I'm going to come in and agree with IMP - I can see that the series will change of course; hopefully he's passing that terribly difficult midpoint of a long series so the pace will quicken and things will start happening. Plus we might get a bit of a change since he did have to cut a whole original idea of a much much slower pace (ie the 5 or so year time jump that was cut and required a massive re-writing of much of the last book).

So I suspect we will see a shift, but I don't think it will be based on the TV show at all. I think to do that would just not fit with who GRRM is and also would be the biggest nail in any fan of the books (who have made all else possible) since massive shifts in the story would be needed to fit it in with the TV series.

 

[kshRox]

Well as I said, my opinion may be colored by what I consider nothing less than a go no-where rape of my pocket book on his last addition to the franchise. I lost all respect for him as a person.

I know he is a talented author so I'm left to suspect he just sold out.
From what little I have read or heard about him he also doesn't seem to have any regard for his readers.

jmho

 

[Overread]

I think he might have a short fuse with readers who demand/go rabid for the next book. Heck I've even heard that some have sent threats and all kinds of un-needed comments toward him simply because he hasn't written the books fast enough for their liking.

So I think some of it isn't him, its partly the community lashing out (and I will add that its a very tiny group - very tiny).


As for the sex/violence etc... - eh my feeling is the series has had these elements in them for ages. Maybe a few more bad characters are rising to the fore as of late, but honestly those elements have been part of the series for a long while.

Also I've never really viewed any author any less or any more of a person for writing about a certain kind of fantasy character. GRRM's series has always been on the dark and bloody side of fantasy so I don;t see any change

 

[Rufio]

The violence and sadism have been present from the get go, no question. The sex, maybe not so much but I can think of three examples of first hand descriptions of sex in Feast For Crows (Cersei and whatshername, Sam and Gilly, Arys Oakheart and Arianne) so the idea that it's there because of the tv show doesn't hold water.

The show has not shied away from darkness so far, although they have been willing to make changes. So again, why change the books, the tv show will look after itself.

Also I don't see why he'd change it or spin it out due to the tv show, he's making his money from that, the books are selling in huge numbers but at the rate they are coming out it's hard to see the point of milking the series, and again the problems with Feast/Dance pre-date the tv show by a long way.

 

[ziebra]

For what its worth, myself and quite a few friends of mine that are also fans only came upon the series from the TV show, and every single one of us has now read all 5 books at least once. To put it another way, I don't know of ANYONE who has seen the show, and not sought out the books.

 

[The Imp]

For what its worth, myself and quite a few friends of mine that are also fans only came upon the series from the TV show, and every single one of us has now read all 5 books at least once. To put it another way, I don't know of ANYONE who has seen the show, and not sought out the books.

You apparently have never met my sweet wife I can also think of 7 friends that haven't 9read the books)

 

[garion77]

You apparently have never met my sweet wife I can also think of 7 friends that haven't 9read the books)

And my co-workers and friends. They keep talking about how great the show is so I brought them the series to read and no one read it! It drives me crazy! I tell them the books are way better but they say they like the series...

Don't get me wrong, I like GRRM as a author and a person for what I know about him. But ADWD was written more for an adaption to TV...

And anyone who think books (other than Rowlan) make more than a TV series in syndication don't understand how royalties work... And GRRM is big enough author to damand royalties trust me... He is not a novice writer trying to make a name. AGOT will be playing in the Asian market, European market, middle east, and all over the world long after GRRM is dead and gone... His family will be making millions of dollars off the series long after the only place you can find his book is in a library...

Many of those markets will not get the series for another 8 years or so... Prime time TV will not get AGOT until it last episode on HBO... GRRM will get a royalty from all of that...

I write movies and tv series... Every writers goal is not to make tons of money but get their show to syndication... You don't need to pay the actors and actresses anymore and can show the tv series on multiple stations and the biggest prize... The stations overseas... Mega bucks... But you must reach that magical 100 episode...

GRRM ending will change from what he planned because even the HBO can't go too far off script... And the casual viewers will not like a completely bitter ending... The last thing you want is viewers talking about how bad the series ended... That could cost HBO millions...

And at the end of the day, it's all about business and profit...

 

[Overread]

Does GRRM really care about HBO's millions?

He's already got his income off the books and likely already got his payments for the series on the TV so chances are HBO making or losing millions really isn't his concern, its theirs. And they went into this knowing that they would likely produce, screen and go to DVD with the entire current written series far in advance of GRRM actually getting the final books out. So however it goes they are going to hit a spot where they either end the series early - pause and wait - drop the project half finished or make up their own ending.

The last I wouldn't put passed them doing, however it will depend how strong a contract GRRM has with them and how much actual control he has over his own material and IP rights in that contract. My hope is that he's retained enough control to prevent a disaster (HBO doing it themselves).

 

[C Of K]

Does GRRM really care about HBO's millions?

He's already got his income off the books and likely already got his payments for the series on the TV so chances are HBO making or losing millions really isn't his concern, its theirs. And they went into this knowing that they would likely produce, screen and go to DVD with the entire current written series far in advance of GRRM actually getting the final books out. So however it goes they are going to hit a spot where they either end the series early - pause and wait - drop the project half finished or make up their own ending.

The last I wouldn't put passed them doing, however it will depend how strong a contract GRRM has with them and how much actual control he has over his own material and IP rights in that contract. My hope is that he's retained enough control to prevent a disaster (HBO doing it themselves).

GRRM has stated that he's only a consultant for the show, and that he writes only one episode a season. He doesn't really make any decisions beyond that episode, and I'm not entirely certain that he even has full control over everything that happens in it. But I think Overread's last option is one that some people have been ignoring some in this thread.

Those at HBO will do whatever is best for their series despite what GRRM does with his books, and he knows that they will, so I don't think he'll be changing much of the ending because of the show. He trusted Weiss and Beniof because they are actual fans of his books, but in the end, the show is their baby, and if his ending will hurt them in any way, they will do what is right to protect themselves.

No matter how happy GRRM makes his ending, if everything goes right, and he is able to finish before they finish the series, then he will still never know exactly how much Weiss and Beniof will like that ending until they've had a chance to read it and tell him personally what they thought. I don't see GRRM trying to guess at the ending that those two guys may want to see.

 

[Coragem]

I think that GRRM is well aware of the fact that it's the popularlity of the books that dirves the series, rather than the reverse. I do not see him changing the books to meet the needs of a TV audience, as the writers of the show can do that after the fact, as they've already proven. Also, I think you may be greatly underestimating how much money GRRM gets from the sale of his books, not only aSoIaF but others as well. He doesn't seem like the type to sell out to make a few more bucks from TV, in fact, he's said this when talking about why HBO was able to sell him on the idea of the series after others had tried and failed.

I agree, and I don't think it's all about money for GRRM. The guys is 64, he has all the money he could ever need. Also, he has always been a genre fan and writer – that's who he is, and he always says it's where he belongs. He wants to be remembered as a good or great writer. He wants a literary legacy.

He has also proved with Fevre Dream (refusing to let anyone other than him write a film script) that he doesn't bend to Hollywood.

In sum, I think we underestimate GRRM if we suppose he'd compromise his Ice and Fire vision. But there are other concerns. Read his recent blog posts – he's been in LA, busy in meetings, meetings, meetings. The more fame he gets, the more marketable his brand becomes, the less time and mental space he has to write.

Coragem.

 

[The Imp]

I agree, and I don't think it's all about money for GRRM. The guys is 64, he has all the money he could ever need. Also, he has always been a genre fan and writer – that's who he is, and he always says it's where he belongs. He wants to be remembered as a good or great writer. He wants a literary legacy.

He has also proved with Fevre Dream (refusing to let anyone other than him write a film script) that he doesn't bend to Hollywood.

In sum, I think we underestimate GRRM if we suppose he'd compromise his Ice and Fire vision. But there are other concerns. Read his recent blog posts – he's been in LA, busy in meetings, meetings, meetings. The more fame he gets, the more marketable his brand becomes, the less time and mental space he has to write.

Coragem.

Hopefully, he'll take time away from travelling to cons and maintain his already liesurely writing pace As we all know, his Achilles heel is not being able to write on the road

 

[The Imp]

Does GRRM really care about HBO's millions?

He's already got his income off the books and likely already got his payments for the series on the TV so chances are HBO making or losing millions really isn't his concern, its theirs. And they went into this knowing that they would likely produce, screen and go to DVD with the entire current written series far in advance of GRRM actually getting the final books out. So however it goes they are going to hit a spot where they either end the series early - pause and wait - drop the project half finished or make up their own ending.

The last I wouldn't put passed them doing, however it will depend how strong a contract GRRM has with them and how much actual control he has over his own material and IP rights in that contract. My hope is that he's retained enough control to prevent a disaster (HBO doing it themselves).

Anything can happen, but I think there are a few "givens' that bode well for the show

1- For the most part, the first two seasons have stuck to the story that is in the books. To date, nothing major has happened that would cause them to be irrevocably split from the path of the books

2- The show is VERY popular. I know of people that have gotten HBO just got GOT (much as I did way back when for The Sopranos)

3- We have the "best" book coming up in seasons 3 and 4. It's going to be really hard to screw up those two seasons. My guess is that the number of people watching the show has not peaked yet.

Which brings us to aFFC and aDWD. My hope is that they cover those two books chronologically, much in the way that some people have gone back and re-read the two books concurrently. I also hope that they edit down some of the more tedious material, such as nearly interminable Dany chapters in aDWD. If they do that well enough I think that they're going to have a strong fan base going into TWoW

 

[Ursa major]

But ADWD was written more for an adaption to TV...

One of the criticisms levelled at ADwD (though more so at AFfC) is that they "spend a lot of time going nowhere" (particularly in terms of the plot). If this were indeed valid criticism**, I don't see how this fits in with your idea that this suits the TV adaptation more than, say, the print original.

At least with a book (any book in a series, that is, by any author), it won't become fully clear that the readers have been turned off the series until they don't buy the next one***. TV companies get a very quick indication of viewers deserting a show, and (as in the case of Game of Thrones), critics giving their views on every episode, every week. This is why there have been discussions about what would disappear from the adaptation of AFfC (presumably prompted by those who do think AFfC was a bit slow)?

Bearing this in mind, wouldn't a version of ADwD written to suit the TV have been (considerably) shorter, and have contained far more of the overall plot? And wouldn't it have a far smaller number of locations?



** - I don't think it is, but then I like a plot that sits properly in its world and which shows the consequences of all the major action (whether well meant or not) on that world. Dany, for instance, is having to learn by her own mistakes, and given the number of people whose lives are (partly) in her hands, the consequences can be disastrous. The alternative is a Dany who would be unbelievable, one whose actions are guided by some sort of magical goodness, so that she has a knowledge of human nature and of how to pull the levers of power that would surpass that of any ruler in the real world, however experienced or gifted****.

*** - Has the criticism of AFfC harmed sales of ADwD?

**** - Even Napoleon Bonaparte.