A song of ice and fire will change big time

[kshRox]

One of the criticisms levelled at ADwD (though more so at AFfC) is that they "spend a lot of time going nowhere" (particularly in terms of the plot). If this were indeed valid criticism**, I don't see how this fits in with your idea that this suits the TV adaptation more than, say, the print original.

It makes perfect sense.
That is what TV series are all about.
Generate viewers and keep them hooked.
If a story (series) comes to a conclusion, it's over - syndication ends, $$$ all gone.

Basically turn a good story into a worthless soap opera that titillates but never delivers. (how many soap operas are in syndication that have been going nowhere for 20 or more years?)

 

[The Imp]

One of the criticisms levelled at ADwD (though more so at AFfC) is that they "spend a lot of time going nowhere" (particularly in terms of the plot). If this were indeed valid criticism**, I don't see how this fits in with your idea that this suits the TV adaptation more than, say, the print original.

At least with a book (any book in a series, that is, by any author), it won't become fully clear that the readers have been turned off the series until they don't buy the next one***. TV companies get a very quick indication of viewers deserting a show, and (as in the case of Game of Thrones), critics giving their views on every episode, every week. This is why there have been discussions about what would disappear from the adaptation of AFfC (presumably prompted by those who do think AFfC was a bit slow)?

Bearing this in mind, wouldn't a version of ADwD written to suit the TV have been (considerably) shorter, and have contained far more of the overall plot? And wouldn't it have a far smaller number of locations?



** - I don't think it is, but then I like a plot that sits properly in its world and which shows the consequences of all the major action (whether well meant or not) on that world. Dany, for instance, is having to learn by her own mistakes, and given the number of people whose lives are (partly) in her hands, the consequences can be disastrous. The alternative is a Dany who would be unbelievable, one whose actions are guided by some sort of magical goodness, so that she has a knowledge of human nature and of how to pull the levers of power that would surpass that of any ruler in the real world, however experienced or gifted****.

*** - Has the criticism of AFfC harmed sales of ADwD?

**** - Even Napoleon Bonaparte.

Great points Ursa.

Just to add to that, GRRM used to write for TV. he understands the process. If he's thinking about the TV show while writing (aDWD only) it's not showing in the writing.

 

[Werthead]

In other words, it's a massive cash cow... GRRM will make more money from one season of the TV shows (especially when it go into syndication) than he make from all books combined...

Nope. GRRM made his money from the TV show when he sold the rights to HBO in 2007 for a lump sum. Apparently that was for a significant, but not mind-boggling amount of money. He also gets a fee (from what I understand) for writing his one script per season. Aside from that, the amount of money he gets directly from the TV series is non-existent.

Of course, he has benefitted from the TV series propelling sales of the books to a staggering degree. Before the show started filming in 2009, ASoIaF had sold about 5 million copies in total. As of right now, ASoIaF has sold 20 million copies (9 million in 2011 alone). 75% of the sales of the series have come in the last three years, propelled by the success of the TV series and the build-up to it. As a result of this, GRRM's earnings in 2011-12 topped $15 million, vastly more than what he would have gotten for selling the TV rights to HBO.

So GRRM is benefitting from the TV series propelling book sales, but it's the book sales that are making him the money, not the TV series directly.

And it's important to HBO that he don't turn off casual viewers who would never read the books. He will not screw up his cash cow (HBO) and all the new viewers wouldn't like if the series went too dark and not ending it somewhat happily...

The Sopranos. The Wire. Deadwood. Rome. Oz. Carnivale. The Pacific. Six Feet Under.

HBO really does not have a problem with 'dark' and unhappy endings.

I am a writer myself (you might not be able to tell that by my spelling...LOL) but I sat down with a few producers and directors from HBO in LA a few months ago and rule #1 of TV Series/movie writing... Make sure the viewers are somewhat happy with the ending...

Which is why The Sopranos had such a universally-praised and uncontroversial ending

You have Independent movies who buck the tread but don't make much money and you have summer blockbusters that make billions rehashing the same plot with different characters and actors. Once ASOIAF became Hollywood, A bitter end to the series went down the tubes...

Rome had a bittersweet ending. Deadwood didn't have an ending at all (more the creator's fault than HBO's, it has to be said). The Wire's ending was very mixed (some good but a lot of bad as well).

HBO is not Hollywood and, as they have both said and shown by the type of shows they make, they have zero interest in adhering to Hollywood cliches.

You can already start seeing it in ADWD... Nothing major happened and only one main character somewhat died and no one was really in any situation where you thought they wouldn't make it... Completely unlike the first books...

Substantial amounts happened in ADWD. However, they were mostly concerned with clarifying and expanding the backstory rather than propelling the present narrative (though it was moved decisively forwards in several areas; saying 'nothing happened' is hyperbolic at best). The book was rather subtle in how it expanded the storyline and characters and so far the TV series has shown ineptitude with handling subtlety, which is rather concerning.

 

[garion77]

It makes perfect sense.
That is what TV series are all about.
Generate viewers and keep them hooked.
If a story (series) comes to a conclusion, it's over - syndication ends, $$$ all gone.

Basically turn a good story into a worthless soap opera that titillates but never delivers. (how many soap operas are in syndication that have been going nowhere for 20 or more years?)

Exactly! I am a huge GRRM fan and like him as a person. He seems like the kind of guy you can sit down at a Football game and have a beer with...

AFFC wasn't his best work but was a good book. I enjoyed the story from beginning to end...

But ADWD was horrible... And it took 6 years to write! 6 years! How can you say you are taking your writing serious and take 6 years to write ONE book? Past writers took a lot of years to write their books as well but they had full time job... And didn't have the technology we have today... 6 years is inexcusable...

ADWD has HBO hands all in it... No serious deaths or disfiguring of main characters other than Jon for the cliff hanger... When have GRRM ever did cliff hangers? He usually take main characters out in the middle of the books.

ADWD just felt too much like TV series cliff hanger...

 

[The Imp]

Exactly! I am a huge GRRM fan and like him as a person. He seems like the kind of guy you can sit down at a Football game and have a beer with...

AFFC wasn't his best work but was a good book. I enjoyed the story from beginning to end...

But ADWD was horrible... And it took 6 years to write! 6 years! How can you say you are taking your writing serious and take 6 years to write ONE book? Past writers took a lot of years to write their books as well but they had full time job... And didn't have the technology we have today... 6 years is inexcusable...

ADWD has HBO hands all in it... No serious deaths or disfiguring of main characters other than Jon for the cliff hanger... When have GRRM ever did cliff hangers? He usually take main characters out in the middle of the books.

ADWD just felt too much like TV series cliff hanger...

GRRM ALWAYS, I repeat ALWAYS does cliffhangers. He started doing them with the Bran chapter when Jaime pushed him out of the window, and continued through many of the chapters of ALL of the books. Arya being blind, Brienne being hung, Tyrion at the Blackwater, Cersei's imprisonment, Jon going over to the Wildlings, Dany, Davos, Theon, Tyrion, Sansa, etc. etc. etc.

If you want to make the argument that he wrote the ENTIRE series with the idea of turning it into a TV show have at it, but don't point a finger at his most recent work and erroneously claim that it's different than the previous 4 books.

As for the quality of aDWD, there are many who liked it, particularly after a re-read. Obviously, there are also people who didn't like it. I'll still stand by the statement I made a long time ago that GRRM at his worst is better than almost any living writer at their best

 

[garion77]

GRRM ALWAYS, I repeat ALWAYS does cliffhangers. He started doing them with the Bran chapter when Jaime pushed him out of the window, and continued through many of the chapters of ALL of the books. Arya being blind, Brienne being hung, Tyrion at the Blackwater, Cersei's imprisonment, Jon going over to the Wildlings, Dany, Davos, Theon, Tyrion, Sansa, etc. etc. etc.

If you want to make the argument that he wrote the ENTIRE series with the idea of turning it into a TV show have at it, but don't point a finger at his most recent work and erroneously claim that it's different than the previous 4 books.

As for the quality of aDWD, there are many who liked it, particularly after a re-read. Obviously, there are also people who didn't like it. I'll still stand by the statement I made a long time ago that GRRM at his worst is better than almost any living writer at their best

No... A cliff hanger is when something happens and the book ends... Events happening within the book like Jaime pushing Bran out the window isn't a cliff hanger... Jon snow dying is a cliff hanger... Having to wait another 6 years to see if he is really dead is a HUGE cliff hanger...

I am a fan of GRRM and not a fan boy... If someone does something I see is wrong, I will call them on it... I might be wrong myself in my assessment but that's how I see it...

6 years is inexcusable to write a book unless you aren't worried about the money... And BAM! Pops up the show... Most authors can't afford to wait 6 years between books... But most authors don't have a hit HBO show either... And just because someone sells millions of books, don't mean they make millions of dollars... Agents, publishers, Taxes, and many other things cut into your money greatly...

But GRRM got the big payday from HBO so he don't need to worry about paying the bills. And what the other guy said about HBO giving GRRM a lump some of money have nothing to do with royalties. All writers for book, movies, and TV get a lump some. You still get between 2-5% royalties on the back end...

Example... If it cost HBO 50 million dollars to make AGOT, every penny after that GRRM get a percentage... Any half way decent agent will make sure that's part of the contract...

 

[The Imp]

No... A cliff hanger is when something happens and the book ends... Events happening within the book like Jaime pushing Bran out the window isn't a cliff hanger... Jon snow dying is a cliff hanger... Having to wait another 6 years to see if he is really dead is a HUGE cliff hanger...

I am a fan of GRRM and not a fan boy... If someone does something I see is wrong, I will call them on it... I might be wrong myself in my assessment but that's how I see it...

6 years is inexcusable to write a book unless you aren't worried about the money... And BAM! Pops up the show... Most authors can't afford to wait 6 years between books... But most authors don't have a hit HBO show either... And just because someone sells millions of books, don't mean they make millions of dollars... Agents, publishers, Taxes, and many other things cut into your money greatly...

But GRRM got the big payday from HBO so he don't need to worry about paying the bills. And what the other guy said about HBO giving GRRM a lump some of money have nothing to do with royalties. All writers for book, movies, and TV get a lump some. You still get between 2-5% royalties on the back end...

Example... If it cost HBO 50 million dollars to make AGOT, every penny after that GRRM get a percentage... Any half way decent agent will make sure that's part of the contract...

if you want to pick nits i can nit pick with the best of them.

A cliffhanger, as defined by almost anyone other than you, can occur at the end of a chapter or at the end of a book. If it happens at the end of a book it's usually called a cliffhanger ending.

GRRM was doing just fine before the HBO show happened. I have no idea how much money he'll end up making as a result of the show, but he was a wildly popular best selling author before the show was even conceived of, and again, if he was ONLY interested in the money he would have published something that was way below his standards probably two years before aDWD was released in 2012. you're free to believe whatever you like, and you're also free not to read the books or watch the show/ If you hated aDWD that much, and feel SO manipulated, perhaps there's another fantasy series out there that would better suit your needs and taste

 

[Ursa major]

No... A cliff hanger is when something happens and the book ends...

Sorry, but this is simply not the case. Just look at TV shows and see what they do before a commercial break; or what authors do at the end of chapters, or scenes, or named/numbered "parts" of a book.

Events happening within the book like Jaime pushing Bran out the window isn't a cliff hanger... Jon snow dying is a cliff hanger... Having to wait another 6 years to see if he is really dead is a HUGE cliff hanger...

Yes, that is a huge cliffhanger, one that doesn't come at the end of the book (i.e. it fails your own definition), but is followed by two chapters (The Queen's Hand and Daeneyrs) plus the epilogue.

I am a fan of GRRM and not a fan boy... If someone does something I see is wrong, I will call them on it... I might be wrong myself in my assessment but that's how I see it...

...which doesn't mean it is in any way true. Where is the real evidence, rather than vague speculation?

6 years is inexcusable to write a book unless you aren't worried about the money... And BAM! Pops up the show... Most authors can't afford to wait 6 years between books... But most authors don't have a hit HBO show either... And just because someone sells millions of books, don't mean they make millions of dollars... Agents, publishers, Taxes, and many other things cut into your money greatly...

Do you really have no idea how difficult it is to write a book, even from scratch (where you can put whatever you like on the page)? GRRM doesn't just have to write an interesting narrative, but a group of narratives that fit with what is already in the public domain AND the with conclusion he's aiming for at the end of the series. This is damned hard to do, particularly so in the middle of a series, where the plot strands are at their most numerous and one has to pare them down (or prepare them for paring) to reach a satisfying conclusion (of the book and of the series).

And that six-year gap isn't unprecedented: look at the Dark Tower series with its six-year gap between Book III: The Waste Lands (1991) and Book IV: Wizard and Glass (1997). It isn't as if King's series required him to carry across dozens of plot lines between the books, just the stories associated with a handful of characters. (The books themselves are big and complex, but the need for detailed continuity is simply not there between books three and four of The Dark Tower.)

But GRRM got the big payday from HBO so he don't need to worry about paying the bills. And what the other guy said about HBO giving GRRM a lump some of money have nothing to do with royalties. All writers for book, movies, and TV get a lump some. You still get between 2-5% royalties on the back end...

Sorry, but you're simply ignoring what other posters have said, that GRRM gains no continuing income from the series save for the payment for he receives for each episode he writes (one per season).

Example... If it cost HBO 50 million dollars to make AGOT, every penny after that GRRM get a percentage... Any half way decent agent will make sure that's part of the contract...

Sorry, but we're in the realms of fantasy now. GRRM isn't an actor whose name can open a Hollywood blockbuster; he's a writer. He wants his most famous work to appear on the screen. How much of your profit would you offer him if you were a producer who could simply walk away and adapt another novel/series of novels (ones that have actually been completed)?

 

[garion77]

Sorry, but this is simply not the case. Just look at TV shows and see what they do before a commercial break; or what authors do at the end of chapters, or scenes, or named/numbered "parts" of a book.


Yes, that is a huge cliffhanger, one that doesn't come at the end of the book (i.e. it fails your own definition), but is followed by two chapters (The Queen's Hand and Daeneyrs) plus the epilogue.


...which doesn't mean it is in any way true. Where is the real evidence, rather than vague speculation?


Do you really have no idea how difficult it is to write a book, even from scratch (where you can put whatever you like on the page)? GRRM doesn't just have to write an interesting narrative, but a group of narratives that fit with what is already in the public domain AND the with conclusion he's aiming for at the end of the series. This is damned hard to do, particularly so in the middle of a series, where the plot strands are at their most numerous and one has to pare them down (or prepare them for paring) to reach a satisfying conclusion (of the book and of the series).

And that six-year gap isn't unprecedented: look at the Dark Tower series with its six-year gap between Book III: The Waste Lands (1991) and Book IV: Wizard and Glass (1997). It isn't as if King's series required him to carry across dozens of plot lines between the books, just the stories associated with a handful of characters. (The books themselves are big and complex, but the need for detailed continuity is simply not there between books three and four of The Dark Tower.)

Sorry, but you're simply ignoring what other posters have said, that GRRM gains no continuing income from the series save for the payment for he receives for each episode he writes (one per season).


Sorry, but we're in the realms of fantasy now. GRRM isn't an actor whose name can open a Hollywood blockbuster; he's a writer. He wants his most famous work to appear on the screen. How much of your profit would you offer him if you were a producer who could simply walk away and adapt another novel/series of novels (ones that have actually been completed)?

'

Let me repeat... I am a writer... I sold a few screenplays... It really don't matter whether you are a writer of books or movies when it adapted to script form... They will hire someone like me to read the book and write a script... Trust me when I say the two guys who produced the series aren't the writers of the script...

And a actor and writer are two different things... That's apples and oranges... And it is about the money... Only a person who living in a fantasy world would think otherwise... Bill Gates and Warren Buffet is richer than GRRM and they still are in business for profit... GRRM is accustom to a certain life style and he will do what it takes to keep that life style... You can never have enough money... Or he would be doing it free or donating it all the charity...

And he do gain continued income... You aren't in the business and trying to tell me, the guy who is shooting a movie I wrote and will be released in Jan (Fatal Ten, make sure you see it when it hit the movies) how this industry work? I revised some scripts for the guys at HBO... I pitched a few TV series scripts I wrote to HBO Executives... I know some of the people who work for HBO... You might not know but HBO also have a movie wing that finance certain Hollywood movies. Low budget movies between 5 million and 20 million dollars...

I work in the industry... While I am at it, Match Makers Undertakers is another movies under my production company that should hit the movies in Dec of this year. Check that out as well...LOL

GRRM get royalties...

 

[kshRox]

Hey guys.
GRRM is second only to the Almighty.
His pen is made of platinum and pure gold pours forth from its tip.

His character is above reproach and he only writes to please his fans,
Money does not enter into the equation as he would never stoop to allow filthy luchre to influence him in any way . . .

come on guys, just because someone else doesn't share your opinion and may even have one different than yours, it is not a personal affront, challenge or insult - just different strokes for different folks.

PS: My opinion of a cliffhanger is some kind of event or action that is left hanging without a resolution until some future installment (Same Bat Time! Same Bat Place!) such as the next episode of a series, often bridging a television series from one season to the next or the next book in a series - imho

 

[Brian G Turner]

One of the criticisms levelled at ADwD (though more so at AFfC) is that they "spend a lot of time going nowhere" (particularly in terms of the plot).

Personally I think each of the books has managed to see the story get weaker and weaker. Instead of moving forwards, the feeling for me is that the story keeps moving outwards instead. So, little happens, but we see more of it.

It gives the books the feeling of s soap-opera, with no over-arching central plot, and instead lots of small ones that really don't really go anywhere.

How that works for the TV series is anyone's guess - my original fear was that the series would end up losing viewers fast because of the lack of progress in the later books: in basic terms, the 5000+ pages of ASoIaF have barely moved past the basic character situations at the end of Game of Thrones.

However, that may end up playing to a strength: GRRM excels at writing characters to love or hate, so perhaps the TV audiences will be satisfied with the soap opera feel of the later books.

About the only change I can imagine coming from the TV series is that GRRM will look to actually set a pace to finishing the story, instead if showing us more irrelevant POV characters that do nothing more than add to the sense of world building.

Just my POV.

 

[The Imp]

'

Let me repeat... I am a writer... I sold a few screenplays... It really don't matter whether you are a writer of books or movies when it adapted to script form... They will hire someone like me to read the book and write a script... Trust me when I say the two guys who produced the series aren't the writers of the script...

And a actor and writer are two different things... That's apples and oranges... And it is about the money... Only a person who living in a fantasy world would think otherwise... Bill Gates and Warren Buffet is richer than GRRM and they still are in business for profit... GRRM is accustom to a certain life style and he will do what it takes to keep that life style... You can never have enough money... Or he would be doing it free or donating it all the charity...

And he do gain continued income... You aren't in the business and trying to tell me, the guy who is shooting a movie I wrote and will be released in Jan (Fatal Ten, make sure you see it when it hit the movies) how this industry work? I revised some scripts for the guys at HBO... I pitched a few TV series scripts I wrote to HBO Executives... I know some of the people who work for HBO... You might not know but HBO also have a movie wing that finance certain Hollywood movies. Low budget movies between 5 million and 20 million dollars...

I work in the industry... While I am at it, Match Makers Undertakers is another movies under my production company that should hit the movies in Dec of this year. Check that out as well...LOL

GRRM get royalties...

Whatever you say, friend.

 

[Ursa major]

'

Let me repeat... I am a writer... I sold a few screenplays... It really don't matter whether you are a writer of books or movies when it adapted to script form... They will hire someone like me to read the book and write a script... Trust me when I say the two guys who produced the series aren't the writers of the script...

And a actor and writer are two different things... That's apples and oranges... And it is about the money... Only a person who living in a fantasy world would think otherwise... Bill Gates and Warren Buffet is richer than GRRM and they still are in business for profit... GRRM is accustom to a certain life style and he will do what it takes to keep that life style... You can never have enough money... Or he would be doing it free or donating it all the charity...

And he do gain continued income... You aren't in the business and trying to tell me, the guy who is shooting a movie I wrote and will be released in Jan (Fatal Ten, make sure you see it when it hit the movies) how this industry work? I revised some scripts for the guys at HBO... I pitched a few TV series scripts I wrote to HBO Executives... I know some of the people who work for HBO... You might not know but HBO also have a movie wing that finance certain Hollywood movies. Low budget movies between 5 million and 20 million dollars...

I work in the industry... While I am at it, Match Makers Undertakers is another movies under my production company that should hit the movies in Dec of this year. Check that out as well...LOL

GRRM get royalties...

And certain people are getting over-excited, if not over-emotional.

And sorry again, but if you really want us to accept that what you're saying about GRRM's behaviour has some basis in fact, give us some hard evidence, rather than overcooked assertions and assumptions (bolstered - not - with flaky examples and the misuse of well-understood concepts).

 

[Ursa major]

Personally I think each of the books has managed to see the story get weaker and weaker. Instead of moving forwards, the feeling for me is that the story keeps moving outwards instead. So, little happens, but we see more of it.

That is the big danger of big, wide-ranging series. I suspect many people found the original book to be too broad, what with their many PoV characters. I suppose it was more acceptable early on, as many of those PoVs stayed close to one another - e.g. when Ned, Cat, Arya, Sansa, Bran, John and Tyrion were all in Winterfell, and later when the first four were together in King's Landing, so those nervous of the broad sweep of the story could learn to accept the many PoVs before they all headed all over the place. Daenerys was always elsewhere, and some criticised the book for including her. For me, it was A Clash of Kings that was difficult to get into, at first. I think coping with that broadening, on the first reading, prepared me for the rest of the books. (For instance, I really liked A Feast for Crows on the first reading, which does exhibit some of what your taking about.)

In the end, I suppose it all depends what one thinks the "Song" is about: the battle for the Iron Throne; the battle for Westeros against the Others; the return of the dragon monarchy; a broad description of how war (politics by other means) can impact a society....

It gives the books the feeling of s soap-opera, with no over-arching central plot, and instead lots of small ones that really don't really go anywhere.

That's always a danger with so many plot lines. (To be fair, what little I've seen of long-running soaps is that they abandon character credibility and continuity on the altar of plot. I'm not sure that's happening in ASoIaF: in fact some of the problems, e.g. those surrounding Dany, are caused by the character she's become. Making her more focused, like her brother, would have avoided all the heart searching in Slaver's Bay.

 

[The Imp]

Hey guys.
GRRM is second only to the Almighty.
His pen is made of platinum and pure gold pours forth from its tip.

His character is above reproach and he only writes to please his fans,
Money does not enter into the equation as he would never stoop to allow filthy luchre to influence him in any way . . .

come on guys, just because someone else doesn't share your opinion and may even have one different than yours, it is not a personal affront, challenge or insult - just different strokes for different folks.

PS: My opinion of a cliffhanger is some kind of event or action that is left hanging without a resolution until some future installment (Same Bat Time! Same Bat Place!) such as the next episode of a series, often bridging a television series from one season to the next or the next book in a series - imho

No need to snarkiness and sarcasm. No one is denying anyone their right to have an opinion. If I disagree I'll say so though.

 

[garion77]

Don't get me wrong... ASOIAF is still my all time favorite books... I am a huge GRRM fan... But I also read "The wheels of time" and the first 3 books was up there with ASOIAF... But as it went on, the books had too many plots going on at one time and got confusing... I stop reading at book 8... It just wasn't going anywhere... I heard the new guy who is finishing it up is doing a wonderful job pulling things together. That probably happen with GRRM... Someone else will need to finish it up for him... I can't see him physically or mentally finishing up the series with 6 and 7 years between each book... And he don't look like the healthiest of people...

I haven't picked up a wheels of time book in at least 8 years... And I won't until every book is finished... But most likely never... I might read the last book to see who live and who died...

And to the guy who is talking about GRRM is more worried about his legacy than money must be seeing something I am not... If he was so worried about his legacy, he wouldn't have fans waiting 6 years... When critics start to make jokes about you and how long it take you to write a book, your legacy has already took a major hit... When fan start complaining about how long it take you to write a book, your legacy is already in danger.

When a writer takes so long to finish a book, the expectations for the book could never be reached... After 6 years, we expect a book so amazing, that it create it's own sunlight...LOL

After 6 years, myself and others want to read a truly earth shattering and life changing book...

 

[Werthead]

6 years is inexcusable to write a book unless you aren't worried about the money... And BAM! Pops up the show... Most authors can't afford to wait 6 years between books... But most authors don't have a hit HBO show either...

GRRM completed A DANCE WITH DRAGONS before the HBO show started airing. Early interest had propelled the books in sales before the TV series started, but it was nothing like what would happen later on.

And just because someone sells millions of books, don't mean they make millions of dollars...

Actually, yes it does. If someone sells 1 million books and the author is getting their 15% of the hardcover and their 10%-odd of the paperback, that means they will make more than $1 million dollars from the book.

Agents, publishers, Taxes, and many other things cut into your money greatly...

They do. But if you're selling millions of books (or, now in GRRM's case, tens of millions of books), you're still making a truckload of cash.

And what the other guy said about HBO giving GRRM a lump some of money have nothing to do with royalties. All writers for book, movies, and TV get a lump some. You still get between 2-5% royalties on the back end...

Not on a screen adaptation. You sell the film and TV rights to your work to a company. If they actually produce the film or book, they then own the TV/film version of the story and all of the proceeds of the associated merchandise go to them. Canny and exceptionally powerful authors - like JK Rowling - will get a royalty on a movie deal. With TV, given that the income stream is much more fragmented, that is usually not the case.

GRRM gets a payment for the scripts he writes and may get some kind of payment for his 'executive producer' credit. As far as I know - and trust me when I say few people know or have investigated more things about ASoIaF than myself - he doesn't get any royalties beyond that.

Example... If it cost HBO 50 million dollars to make AGOT, every penny after that GRRM get a percentage... Any half way decent agent will make sure that's part of the contract...

Not necessarily. Hollywood's preferred method of business is to give the author a massive load of cash up-front and then take everything else. Some authors are poweful enough to swing a better deal, including royalties for themselves. Rowling did. Tolkien's estate did (though only after a lengthy legal battle).

I haven't heard of such a thing in TV, though it is possible. However, the 'give the author a production credit' technique is also widely-employed so the author does get some additional money during production, even if not royalties as such.

Trust me when I say the two guys who produced the series aren't the writers of the script

David Benioff and Dan Weiss most certainly are the writers of the majority of the scripts of the series produced to date.

 

[kshRox]

No need to snarkiness and sarcasm. No one is denying anyone their right to have an opinion. If I disagree I'll say so though.

Yes, I was being snarky!!!!!!
Guilty as charged!!!!!

Just trying to lighten it up a little.

 

[Needle]

I have to disagree with you garion. I do not see GRRM changing the books for the sake of the HBO series for many reasons. We will not even talk about how many of his readers he would piss off!

1. Regardless of how big the series is, the author's share of the revenues from a film or tv series is minimal compared to their share of revenue from their books. True it has created an entirely new buzz surrounding the books and sold more books but this has no impact on series revenues for GRRM.

2. Changing the books would, in reality have little or no effect on what HBO chooses to do with the series.

The only author of our time who has the cloat to maintain control of his stories on screen is Stephen King. He has made the statement (rough quote here) that after he sold the rights to Children of the Corn he learned that this included the title. He was horrified at what followed, 5-6 terrible sequels. Now the only way his stories can be changed on screen is if he allows it. Those stories that are most important to him remain under his control or they don't get them, simple as that.

If you need a further example of what Hollywood can do to a story check out Legend of the Seeker! Supposedly Terry Goodkind's Sword of Truth. I get teed off just reading the episode info on my dish guide!

just a restatement of my original post here, which I stand by!

Does GRRM really care about HBO's millions?

He's already got his income off the books and likely already got his payments for the series on the TV so chances are HBO making or losing millions really isn't his concern, its theirs. And they went into this knowing that they would likely produce, screen and go to DVD with the entire current written series far in advance of GRRM actually getting the final books out. So however it goes they are going to hit a spot where they either end the series early - pause and wait - drop the project half finished or make up their own ending.

MY point exactly-He sold the script, that is his payment. What HBO does now is up to them.

GRRM has stated that he's only a consultant for the show, and that he writes only one episode a season. He doesn't really make any decisions beyond that episode, and I'm not entirely certain that he even has full control over everything that happens in it. But I think Overread's last option is one that some people have been ignoring some in this thread.

No matter how happy GRRM makes his ending, if everything goes right, and he is able to finish before they finish the series, then he will still never know exactly how much Weiss and Beniof will like that ending until they've had a chance to read it and tell him personally what they thought. I don't see GRRM trying to guess at the ending that those two guys may want to see.

Exactly! They will end how they end it. So for GRRM to change his to suit them makes no sense whats-so-ever.

I agree, and I don't think it's all about money for GRRM.
He has also proved with Fevre Dream (refusing to let anyone other than him write a film script) that he doesn't bend to Hollywood.

Coragem.

Coragem- Is Fevre Dream being made into a film? I recently read it and truly enjoyed it. Would love to see a good film production!

Hey guys.
GRRM is second only to the Almighty.
His pen is made of platinum and pure gold pours forth from its tip.

His character is above reproach and he only writes to please his fans,
Money does not enter into the equation as he would never stoop to allow filthy luchre to influence him in any way . . .

come on guys, just because someone else doesn't share your opinion and may even have one different than yours, it is not a personal affront, challenge or insult - just different strokes for different folks.

No need to snarkiness and sarcasm. No one is denying anyone their right to have an opinion. If I disagree I'll say so though.

As to snarkiness and sarcasm-I wish to restate an opinion that caused me to face more than a little flake in the past but I stand by it.

We, on this forum, are not here to idolize GRRM, far from it. We disagree with him on many issues regularly. We disagree with each other on a daily basis. It is what keeps it interesting. Yet we are all discussing a work that we enjoy reading, watching. We devote our time to it for that reason. Personally, I am a working RN (50-60 hours a week) I do volunteer work, am in school for my BS, have a husband, children (almost grown true but still a lot of work!) 2 dogs and 8 cats. Trust me when I say, life is too short! Everyone is certainly entitled to their opinion, freedom of speech is something I hold dear yet, To me it is simple, if you truly do not like the story or the show, then you have wasted enough of your time on it! Why continue to waste your precious time dis ing it to others who enjoy it? Move on! My stack of half-read books proves this is a theory I live by! Literature and film are to be enjoyed. Sorry I just don't get it. Just my 2 cents.

 

[The Imp]

We, on this forum, are not here to idolize GRRM, far from it. We disagree with him on many issues regularly. We disagree with each other on a daily basis. It is what keeps it interesting. Yet we are all discussing a work that we enjoy reading, watching. We devote our time to it for that reason. Personally, I am a working RN (50-60 hours a week) I do volunteer work, am in school for my BS, have a husband, children (almost grown true but still a lot of work!) 2 dogs and 8 cats. Trust me when I say, life is too short! Everyone is certainly entitled to their opinion, freedom of speech is something I hold dear yet, To me it is simple, if you truly do not like the story or the show, then you have wasted enough of your time on it! Why continue to waste your precious time dis ing it to others who enjoy it? Move on! My stack of half-read books proves this is a theory I live by! Literature and film are to be enjoyed. Sorry I just don't get it. Just my 2 cents.

Thank you for saying this, and may I say, you are one BUSY woman