A song of ice and fire will change big time

[ArstenWhitebeard]

I know I am responding to an old post but I had to add a few things in response to these kinds of posts.

I write movies and tv series... Every writers goal is not to make tons of money but get their show to syndication... You don't need to pay the actors and actresses anymore and can show the tv series on multiple stations and the biggest prize... The stations overseas... Mega bucks... But you must reach that magical 100 episode...

1-I really don't mean to be disrespectful, but I wouldn't hasten to put you and GRRM in the same category as writers. First of all, as you meantioned, you are in the business of writing movie/TV scripts, while GRRM is a fantasy novelist. Also, you can't say all authors are motivated by the same thing (in this case Money) I am sure many are, but I bet there are many who are not. Many novelists cringe at the idea of their work being turned into a movie or show because they know that allot of the time, they have no say over the final product. If they only cared about the money all movie adaptations would go the way of Eragon

GRRM ending will change from what he planned because even the HBO can't go too far off script... And the casual viewers will not like a completely bitter ending... The last thing you want is viewers talking about how bad the series ended... That could cost HBO millions...

2- you have to keep in mind that the books come first. The show was made because the books were amazing, and the show is good because the books were amazing.I am not so neive to think that HBO won't consider making changesin the show, they already have. but they are appealing to an audience that already likes the show. If they change the show from the books, or if GRRM changes the books to better suit the Show (which makes no sense since the show is BASED on the books) then they would be losing that audience. If anything, the show should encourage GRRM to keep the ending he has already had in mind. 10 million people basically told him that they like his novels and his writing style, why would this make him think he should change them?

And at the end of the day, it's all about business and profit...

3- Just because it is for you (and, lets face it, millions of other people), does not necessarily mean it applies to GRRM. For all I know, he could be doing it all for the money, but if that is the case, at least he understands he can make more money by putting out 1 brilliant series than a couple mediocre series.

PS: My opinion of a cliffhanger is some kind of event or action that is left hanging without a resolution until some future installment (Same Bat Time! Same Bat Place!) such as the next episode of a series, often bridging a television series from one season to the next or the next book in a series - imho

You meant same Bat Channel, by the way.

I really hope I don't come accross as too defensive (I wanted to be a little defensive). I don't think GRRM ***** gold, but he does come pretty close to writing it. I have no idea what motivates him or even what kind of person he is. Don't know or care if he cares about integrity. but to me, it simply doesn't make sense that the success of the show would change his ideas for the direction of the book. If the show tanked, then I think you would have an argument.

 

[Gumboot]

Sorry, but you're simply ignoring what other posters have said, that GRRM gains no continuing income from the series save for the payment for he receives for each episode he writes (one per season).

...

Sorry, but we're in the realms of fantasy now. GRRM isn't an actor whose name can open a Hollywood blockbuster; he's a writer. He wants his most famous work to appear on the screen. How much of your profit would you offer him if you were a producer who could simply walk away and adapt another novel/series of novels (ones that have actually been completed)?

While I'm mostly in agreement I just have to say that on these two particular points you are 100%, absolutely and totally wrong.

George RR Martin is not only a writer on the show but also co-executive producer and the creative originator of the project. He absolutely gets a percentage of the profits.

I have no idea what his royalty terms are, and I certainly wouldn't go as far as to claim he makes more from the TV series than from selling his books, but he most assuredly gets royalties.

 

[Gumboot]

Not on a screen adaptation. You sell the film and TV rights to your work to a company. If they actually produce the film or book, they then own the TV/film version of the story and all of the proceeds of the associated merchandise go to them. Canny and exceptionally powerful authors - like JK Rowling - will get a royalty on a movie deal. With TV, given that the income stream is much more fragmented, that is usually not the case.

This is incorrect. In fact, if you're a writer's guild member (which Martin is) royalties are compulsory. Actors also get royalties, as do producers, and on rarer occasions other creative HODs such as DOPs and Production Designers.

GRRM gets a payment for the scripts he writes and may get some kind of payment for his 'executive producer' credit. As far as I know - and trust me when I say few people know or have investigated more things about ASoIaF than myself - he doesn't get any royalties beyond that.

With all due respect, your assertions indicate your knowledge of the film industry is limited. I don't agree with garion on much of what he's saying, but on the royalty matter he's correct.

Not necessarily. Hollywood's preferred method of business is to give the author a massive load of cash up-front and then take everything else. Some authors are poweful enough to swing a better deal, including royalties for themselves. Rowling did. Tolkien's estate did (though only after a lengthy legal battle).

Again, this is incorrect. Royalties are standard practise in the industry. In fact, since it's a relatively simple matter to fiddle the accounts and keep profits to a minimum, Hollywood's preferred method is lower upfront fees and promise of royalties instead. The truly powerful manage to secure first dollar gross royalties, which is where the real earner is.

I haven't heard of such a thing in TV, though it is possible.

It's not only common. It's standard practise. And standing agreements between the various guilds mean that for guild members it's compulsory. You HAVE to give them royalties.

However, the 'give the author a production credit' technique is also widely-employed so the author does get some additional money during production, even if not royalties as such.

Most of those production credits are as an associate producer, and they typically only get royalties. Martin, however, is a co-executive producer on the series, which is a different kettle of fish. It means he's one of the big bosses.

 

[Gumboot]

Back to the topic of discussion, I recall an early interview with the producers of the TV series, where the very issue of the series "catching up" with the books was discussed. The producers made it clear this very real possibility had been considered. Martin had given them the bare bones outline of the story ahead, and the plan was, at that point, to adhere to the books for about 3 or 4 seasons and then to begin to deliberately diverge.

I don't know if this is still the plan - this was long before even season one came out - but it at least indicates that this very issue is something the TV series had in their heads right from the outset. Their willingness to diverge from the books also affirms that Martin would stick to his original plan for the books.

As for ADWD, I am amongst those fans of the series who was fairly disappointed with it, and in general I feel like the quality of the last two has been measurably down on the rest of the series. (Although even with that in mind I still consider them well above most work in the genre).

with ADWD in particular my primary issue was the first half; I felt like the second half of the book read well, but that there was a great deal of not much in the first half. I think that might be a byproduct of the duration since the last book, which may have disconnected Martin somewhat from the dramatic arc.

Having said that, I've personally found that "middle book syndrome" is a common problem with very long series, where the first and last few books are great, but the middle books tend to become bloated and lack structure.

At least if Martin is yet another author to fall victim to this phenomenon, he's created interesting enough characters and a complex enough world that the book's still engaging while we wait for those last few books to kick the narrative back into gear.

 

[Werthead]

George RR Martin is not only a writer on the show but also co-executive producer and the creative originator of the project. He absolutely gets a percentage of the profits.

There is no such term as 'creative originator' of the project. If you mean the prime mover behind the project known as the television series, Game of Thrones, then he is not. That role is fulfilled by D.B. Weiss and David Benioff (who are the creators of the television series, the executive producers and showrunners). Martin wrote the novels that they chose to adapt.

You are correct that Martin has a co-executive producer credit and one writing credit per season, which would definitely provide some kind of regular income, but beyond that we do not know.

I have no idea what his royalty terms are, and I certainly wouldn't go as far as to claim he makes more from the TV series than from selling his books, but he most assuredly gets royalties.

He definitely does not make anything close to what he makes from the books from the TV series.

This is incorrect. In fact, if you're a writer's guild member (which Martin is) royalties are compulsory. Actors also get royalties, as do producers, and on rarer occasions other creative HODs such as DOPs and Production Designers.

Good point. I forgot that GRRM is a member of the guild. Also, as he is actively involved in the production (in a way that most writers of source material are not) this has a different bearing on the situation.

However, you are incorrect in the rest of your statement: royalties are only paid to the originators of IP material (in this case, GRRM and Benioff and Weiss). Everyone else gets residuals.

Most of those production credits are as an associate producer, and they typically only get royalties. Martin, however, is a co-executive producer on the series, which is a different kettle of fish. It means he's one of the big bosses.

No. The only 'big bosses' are Benioff and Weiss. Martin's role as a producer is advisory. He helps with casting decisions, discusses the writing process and advises in general terms, but has no day-to-day role on the show (since he is 5,000 miles away from the production base, this is unsurprising) and his conclusions are frequently overruled by Benioff and Weiss.

Essentially, 'producer' (of whatever stripe, whether 'executive' or not) is a term so vague as to be meaningless. Some producers are in charge of the entire project (hence the unofficial term 'showrunner') and some sit at home and have nothing to do with the project at all. For example, the Weinstein brothers are listed as executive producers on the LotR trilogy when they had no role on the New Line project at all (they did provide some initial development funds at Miramax, but took no active role in the production of the finished movies). Films with megastar actors often list the actor as an executive producer simply because their agent got them on there to add prestige, and not much beyond that.

 

[Gumboot]

There is no such term as 'creative originator' of the project.

It wasn't intended as a film role, but merely an observed fact; he created the world of westeros. It's his IP. Some ignorant first time writers are stupid enough to give away their IP for a quick royalty cheque, but George RR Martin has worked in the film industry for years, and knows what it's worth.

You are correct that Martin has a co-executive producer credit and one writing credit per season, which would definitely provide some kind of regular income, but beyond that we do not know.

He definitely does not make anything close to what he makes from the books from the TV series.

No, I wouldn't think so.

Good point. I forgot that GRRM is a member of the guild. Also, as he is actively involved in the production (in a way that most writers of source material are not) this has a different bearing on the situation.

Well, there's degrees of involvement. For example I know for a fact that Terry Goodkind was involved in Legend of the Seeker, just not particularly closely.

However, you are incorrect in the rest of your statement: royalties are only paid to the originators of IP material (in this case, GRRM and Benioff and Weiss). Everyone else gets residuals.

Yes indeed, you are quite correct, that was a sloppy use of terms there.

No. The only 'big bosses' are Benioff and Weiss. Martin's role as a producer is advisory. He helps with casting decisions, discusses the writing process and advises in general terms, but has no day-to-day role on the show (since he is 5,000 miles away from the production base, this is unsurprising) and his conclusions are frequently overruled by Benioff and Weiss.

Benioff and Weiss are irrefutably more in control than Martin, and certainly he's not involved in day-to-day running of the production (he's an executive producer, not a producer) but I think you're firstly underestimating how compartmentalised a big production like this is, and secondly underestimating how important the input of executive producers is. Having any say whatsoever in casting decisions is enormously influential on a production like this, to begin with. That's why I laughed when Martin kept saying he wasn't directly involved, but then kept blogging about his input into casting the show. If you help cast a show like this, you're deeply involved. It's probably one of the most important jobs on the production.

Essentially, 'producer' (of whatever stripe, whether 'executive' or not) is a term so vague as to be meaningless.

I can assure you that the different types of producer have very specific meanings that directly relate to their involvement in the project.

For example, the Weinstein brothers are listed as executive producers on the LotR trilogy when they had no role on the New Line project at all (they did provide some initial development funds at Miramax, but took no active role in the production of the finished movies).

It's quite true that Barrie Osborne was given remarkably free reign in making the film, but your assessment is a little off. A credit doesn't necessarily mean you worked on an entire project. The Weinstein brothers were only executive producers during development, at which time they had a great deal of input. When it shifted to New Line, the executive producer role was taken over by Michael Lynne, Mark Ordesky, and Robert Shaye, and they most certainly had input into the production.

Films with megastar actors often list the actor as an executive producer simply because their agent got them on there to add prestige, and not much beyond that.

Films with megastar actors are almost always initiated by the megastar themselves, and they have an enormous amount of power. The same happens with directors; once they're powerful enough they create the projects they want to create, and make sure they have control over the project. This isn't true of all actors and directors, of course, some of them just like doing their job. But if an actor or director is listed as any sort of producer it's because it's their project; they initiated it, and they control it.

 

[Reivax26]

I watched a Q&A that a group did with him on Youtube after the first season came out. I found him to be quite funny to be honest and he comes across as a very intelligent man. Also I got the feeling that he wants the books and the show to be two seperate entities. So far I haven't seen anything get changed dramatically in the show and have enjoyed it quite a bit. I am really excited about the new actors for the 3rd season of the show.

I really wish he was better at writing on the go though as someone had mentioned earlier. It would mean that the next book would come out sooner and that would make a lot of people happy. Then again if it is required for him to take longer and the book be better than its predecessor then I am ok with that as well. A Dance with Dragons was my least favorite book.

 

[ThePro]

First off, let me just say that it is a relief to come to a forum that roots out trolls and flamers pretty much just by sticking to a simple code of ethics and refusing to give into asshole-ery. A-fricken-men.

I am a brand new forum member and someone who has just completed the series for the first time and am starting my re-listen/read (listen to the first 3 audio books, read the last two because of well-known consistency problems I won't get into here). A good, and old friend of mine is on this forum (Juleska) and she recommended it to me. I see why now. I looked at the westeros.org forum and saw a thread where people spent THREE PAGES discussing how they would conduct the thread, and even that descended into senseless argument.

All that said, I also have to speak here as someone who didn't have to wait that extended period between books 3-4 and 4-5. So, personally, I find that AFFC and ADWD were quite entertaining, although having to jump back in time in ADWD made it tricky to remember what had happened when, but I worked it out the best that I could and really enjoyed it!

Also, I agree with Imp and Needle (and anyone else who reiterated it) in saying that basing what you post on facts and not speculation (especially speculation about things where there ARE facts that refute your speculation) is a lovely and refreshing approach.

As for an opinion, based on a) my recent completion of the series so far and b) reading up on a couple of interviews and wikipedia - I think that GRRM has no intention of allowing the TV series affect his overall story. That being said, I *just* read in an EW interview that he will most likely make some changes to Osha based on how the actress cast in that role played it.'

So, sure, there will be minor influences, but, again, I don't see any indication that he will change any major elements of the story for TV. The motivation just isn't there. His goal (and it's blatantly obvious if you read the interview I just did) is to write the best epic fantasy series ever - or at least the best that he can. He references Tolkien at every turn as a standard to aspire to - and hopefully to surpass on some level. Authors about money and fame don't care about those types of things.

I also think that it's wholly unfair to judge the quality of a book on how long you had to wait for it. Yes, I get it, I didn't have to wait. But still, we're talking about a literary legacy here. Six years might seem like a long time these days, but 20+ years from now, when people are studying his work in class, or reading it for fun, they won't care if it took him 10 years between books. The end, in this case anyway, DOES justify the means.

Also, if you read interviews, you will see that GRM DOES, in fact, have his ending "in broad strokes" already conceived. His whole conundrum is condensing the story into as few books as makes sense to get to that end. THAT is what's taking forever. Perhaps if he'd already written an epic fantasy series before this he might have had some idea of how to avoid some of the pitfalls he's run into. But, at least, instead of allowing aid pitfalls to get the better of him and just being like "screw it, I'll just do this, cash in and move on" he hasn't.

I'm in the music business (albeit not at a super high level currently) and I'll never be arrogant enough to think that how I, personally, feel about music and money and fame are the SAME WAY that EVERYONE ELSE in the industry feels. That's a type of thinking that leads to a lot of bigotry ("all men are like ...", "all women are like" "all writers are like...").

Maybe the author of this post is a writer (gods save his poor editor) but clearly, if that is the case, he is very narrow in his focus and not interested in the facts about THIS PARTICULAR CASE - which happens to be the only case that matters, or is relevant, in this sub-forum.

OK, you didn't like ADWD. Fine. Maybe that should have been the topic of your thread.

Incidentally, since someone may ask (although i suspect that a lot of you have already seen these), here are the links to the two interviews that I read before making this post (and after reading all - or most all - of the other comments first):

[Edit: oops - I'm too new to post links - so if you want them, let me know but it's two EW interviews posted on Jul 12th and 21st]

Lastly, I'll say this: True fans who defend their beloved author are not necessarily "fan-boys." In fact, most of them ( at lest on this forum) are fact-checkers and people with a solid sense of logic and reason. Thankfully, those are the bulk of the posters here.

 

[ThePro]

Sorry - one other thing. It's about assumptions. I touched on that in my last post, but I thought it might be worth noting that while I have watched about 5 episodes of the first season of the show, I find myself perfectly content reading or listening to the books themselves. Sure I may very well watch the show in it's entirety when it's all said and done, but to assume that people will automatically love the show and get hooked on it from the books doesn't apply to everyone who reads the books - just like people who watch the show aren't guaranteed to read (or get into) the books. And I have the luxry of watching any episode whenever I want, so it's not an availability thing.

Anyway yeah, just my extra copper, fwiw.

(happy holidays everyone, btw!)

 

[ThePro]

Wait - why did my second post in this thread (this is my 3rd) have to go to the moderator and my second (above) just posted?

Anyway, my "one other thing" was after a considerably longer post - maybe that's it? No biggie - just looks all out of context and order - and, damnit, my first post was (far) more interesting.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

I've approved your missing post. It automatically went into moderation because of the partial link to westeros.org. You don't have enough posts yet to be able to post links, so the forum software -- which reacts to anything that looks even vaguely like a link -- disappeared it, pending a moderator's approval.

It now appears in the thread right where you originally put it.

 

[ThePro]

Thanks Teresa! I thought I had removed my links, but I see - I mentioned westeros.org not meaning to make that a link, but I understand how the software would parse that as a partial link. Oops!

 

[Ursa major]

Oops again, I'm afraid: you mentioned it in that post as well, so that too disappeared.

(But it's now restored.)

 

[The Imp]

TP

I agree with nearly all of what you posted.

Was it Osha or Asha that you're referring to btw? I'm not "in love' with either actress btw. i think they both look a bit too soft to me to consider them to be authentic, either by Wilding or Iron born standards.

Happy holidays to you as well, and once again, welcome to this wonderful little corner of the online world

 

[ThePro]

Imp

Definitely Osha - I haven't gotten far enough into the show to see Asha yet.

Here's the q/a from the interview:

Is there any performance in the TV show that’s caused you to think differently about a character?
The performances have been great, but they’ve been great at capturing the characters as I saw them. The one exception is Natalia Tena as Osha. Cause she’s very different than in the book, but I think she’s more interesting. When I bring Osha back in Winds of Winter, I’ll have Natalia in mind and perhaps give the character more interesting things to do.

Thanks for the welcome - I figured if Juleska was a regular member here then it must be a reasonably civil/logical place. I'll probably be pretty sporadic in posting, but I'm happy to have a place to come to discuss this fascinating world and characters!

Oh, and Ursa - um, thanks for 'un-oopsing' me again. I'm laughing at myself right now realizing that I used the domain name AGAIN in my reply post. Good times. lol

 

[Needle]

TP,
Just wanted to say Welcome to Chrons! There is a great bunch of people here to communicate with. I know, cause they put up with me!

A belated Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all! looking forward to a new year with you all!

Sending my love, Needle.

 

[ThePro]

Thanks Needle! Look forward to discussing, and attempting to unravel this epic (for once, and accurate use of the word) story!

Happy Holidays to you and all!

 

[The Imp]

TP,
Just wanted to say Welcome to Chrons! There is a great bunch of people here to communicate with. I know, cause they put up with me!

A belated Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all! looking forward to a new year with you all!

Sending my love, Needle.

back at you Needle.

 

[Eulalia]

Happy Holidays, Needle!

Even the direwolves are soft, Imp. Yara is not quite as fierce as I would have thought, I agree. To be cleansed, we just need to read the books again.

 

[The Imp]

Happy Holidays, Needle!

Even the direwolves are soft, Imp. Yara is not quite as fierce as I would have thought, I agree. To be cleansed, we just need to read the books again.

that is a GREAT idea. I actually am due for a re-read of aDWD.
My wife is away until the 13th of January and winter is here, and I spend more time at home. My nephew is in Hawaii and I asked him to send some dragonglass, but there wasn't any laying around