A song of ice and fire will change big time

[garion77]

just a restatement of my original post here, which I stand by!

MY point exactly-He sold the script, that is his payment. What HBO does now is up to them.

Exactly! They will end how they end it. So for GRRM to change his to suit them makes no sense whats-so-ever.

Coragem- Is Fevre Dream being made into a film? I recently read it and truly enjoyed it. Would love to see a good film production!




As to snarkiness and sarcasm-I wish to restate an opinion that caused me to face more than a little flake in the past but I stand by it.

We, on this forum, are not here to idolize GRRM, far from it. We disagree with him on many issues regularly. We disagree with each other on a daily basis. It is what keeps it interesting. Yet we are all discussing a work that we enjoy reading, watching. We devote our time to it for that reason. Personally, I am a working RN (50-60 hours a week) I do volunteer work, am in school for my BS, have a husband, children (almost grown true but still a lot of work!) 2 dogs and 8 cats. Trust me when I say, life is too short! Everyone is certainly entitled to their opinion, freedom of speech is something I hold dear yet, To me it is simple, if you truly do not like the story or the show, then you have wasted enough of your time on it! Why continue to waste your precious time dis ing it to others who enjoy it? Move on! My stack of half-read books proves this is a theory I live by! Literature and film are to be enjoyed. Sorry I just don't get it. Just my 2 cents.

Just because someone don't view things the way you do, don't mean they should or shouldn't read something... It's my right to complain as much as I please just like it's your write to defend as much as you please. If I see something isn't right, I will speak up whether others agree or not... And If my disagreement with GRRM last book influenced your opinion of it, oh well...

I am not on here to write things you want to hear... You should join a GRRM fan boy/girl club for that... I am here to point out things I like and dislike... I am not a fan boy... I am a GRRM fan...

But I still love you guys... I enjoy the forum and the people on the forum... I don't take it personal at all... I don't want people agreeing with me on everything... I come on the forum to get different opinions... And I learned a lot about the books since joining the forum.

 

[Slizabeth]

Hi everyone! I'm new to this forum. But, like all of you I love these ASOIAF books. I think they're all amazing.

I just wanted to add that I sincerley hope that GRRM has an ending in mind for this epic series, and that he does not allow himself to be influenced by other factors.

I would also agree with some others who have commented that ADWD (while still brilliant) is a lot more slow moving than all of the previous books.....and almost seemed to go sideways more than forwards in regards to plot advancement.

 

[kshRox]

As to snarkiness and sarcasm-I wish to restate an opinion that caused me to face more than a little flake in the past but I stand by it.

We, on this forum, are not here to idolize GRRM, far from it.

I read this and feel like you are criticizing me for being dis-respectful.
If you're not then I apologize for taking it the wrong way.

If you are, please give me a break.
I was trying to break the tension because it seemed some people were getting their small-clothes in a twist or perhaps their cod-piece needed to be adjusted. I was attempting to lighten the mood.

As for idolizing GRRM - seems to me there are some people who get uptight pretty quick if anyone says anything critical of GRRM or his motives.

We disagree with him on many issues regularly. We disagree with each other on a daily basis. It is what keeps it interesting. Yet we are all discussing a work that we enjoy reading, watching. We devote our time to it for that reason.

I very much enjoyed GRRMs novels too (up to ADWD).
I also find the HBO adaptation entertaining.

That said I'm concerned and disappointed by the utter downward spiral in the quality of his work. I'm disgusted that he needs approximately 6 years to complete a novel which in my opinion was a complete load of crap compared to his earlier works. I also suspect he may wind up as some other authors who leave their work unfinished - he's not a spring chicken.

I lean towards Garion's view that he may have had his head turned by syndication $$s.

I understand this is my opinion and I'm not trying to convince anyone else I'm right. As a matter of fact, I hope I'm wrong which is one of the reasons why I still like to discuss it. If you respond to my comments though, I'll tell you why I think so -

I'm certainly not trying to offended you the imp or anyone else who disagrees with me - for heavens sakes, write me off as a looney and ignore me . More power to you and I'm glad you are enjoying the series.

I might turn your comments back to you.

If you see this thread is questioning GRRMs commitment to his art in regards to selling out for dollars - why waste your time arguing the point?

Unless you find discussing it interesting or entertaining, then great!
If you find it frustrating or it upsets you? Ignore it.

Personally, I am a working RN (50-60 hours a week) I do volunteer work, am in school for my BS, have a husband, children (almost grown true but still a lot of work!) 2 dogs and 8 cats. Trust me when I say, life is too short! Everyone is certainly entitled to their opinion, freedom of speech is something I hold dear yet, To me it is simple, if you truly do not like the story or the show, then you have wasted enough of your time on it! Why continue to waste your precious time dis ing it to others who enjoy it? Move on! My stack of half-read books proves this is a theory I live by! Literature and film are to be enjoyed. Sorry I just don't get it. Just my 2 cents.

I'm a single dad with 2 daughters who just started high school balancing sports, club and my full time work. Your not the only one who is busy. I read, (attempt to) write and interact on this forum because it is an activity I enjoy and can fit into my hectic schedule.

Because I enjoy it.

 

[Ursa major]

As for idolizing GRRM - seems to me there are some people who get uptight pretty quick if anyone says anything critical of GRRM or his motives.

Actually, kshRox, what we we don't like is the serial posting of the same opinion(s)**, whether pro or anti, by the same person** without viable evidence to back it up. If I were to post ten times in a row that the moon was made of green cheese, that wouldn't make it so; furthermore, I'd expect to be pulled up for it.


** - Obviously, when someone new comes on and says what has been said many times before, that's an entirely different matter, particularly in this, the GRRM sub-forum, where there are so many threads and we go out of our way to tell people who haven't read all the books to be careful which of those threads they read, in case of spoilers.

 

[kshRox]

Actually, kshRox, what we we don't like is the serial posting of the same opinion(s)**, whether pro or anti, by the same person** without viable evidence to back it up. If I were to post ten times in a row that the moon was made of green cheese, that wouldn't make it so; furthermore, I'd expect to be pulled up for it.


** - Obviously, when someone new comes on and says what has been said many times before, that's an entirely different matter, particularly in this, the GRRM sub-forum, where there are so many threads and we go out of our way to tell people who haven't read all the books to be careful which of those threads they read, in case of spoilers.

I wouldn't mind engaging in a conversation concerning whether GRRM sold out or not - what in his work lends to this idea or what does not. The impact of selling out and syndication in general and how this impacts the industry.

Again, if this topic doesn't interest you then why do you keep responding?

If you think this is a one-note topic I would point out that it's rather interesting trying to move on to a general discussion when GRRM fans appear to attack anyone for saying anything critical of the author bringing us back to the main points.

I suspect you're another one-note Johnny concerning GRRM from previous comments and frankly believe your disrupting a conversation because you don't like the content rather than moderating so . . .

fine, I'll move on and leave it alone because obviously there is a bias against criticism of GRRM.

 

[The Imp]

I read this and feel like you are criticizing me for being dis-respectful.
If you're not then I apologize for taking it the wrong way.

If you are, please give me a break.
I was trying to break the tension because it seemed some people were getting their small-clothes in a twist or perhaps their cod-piece needed to be adjusted. I was attempting to lighten the mood.

As for idolizing GRRM - seems to me there are some people who get uptight pretty quick if anyone says anything critical of GRRM or his motives.



I very much enjoyed GRRMs novels too (up to ADWD).
I also find the HBO adaptation entertaining.

That said I'm concerned and disappointed by the utter downward spiral in the quality of his work. I'm disgusted that he needs approximately 6 years to complete a novel which in my opinion was a complete load of crap compared to his earlier works. I also suspect he may wind up as some other authors who leave their work unfinished - he's not a spring chicken.

I lean towards Garion's view that he may have had his head turned by syndication $$s.

I understand this is my opinion and I'm not trying to convince anyone else I'm right. As a matter of fact, I hope I'm wrong which is one of the reasons why I still like to discuss it. If you respond to my comments though, I'll tell you why I think so -

I'm certainly not trying to offended you the imp or anyone else who disagrees with me - for heavens sakes, write me off as a looney and ignore me . More power to you and I'm glad you are enjoying the series.

I might turn your comments back to you.

If you see this thread is questioning GRRMs commitment to his art in regards to selling out for dollars - why waste your time arguing the point?

Unless you find discussing it interesting or entertaining, then great!
If you find it frustrating or it upsets you? Ignore it.



I'm a single dad with 2 daughters who just started high school balancing sports, club and my full time work. Your not the only one who is busy. I read, (attempt to) write and interact on this forum because it is an activity I enjoy and can fit into my hectic schedule.

Because I enjoy it.

Just speaking for myself personally, snarkiness and sarcasm NEVER lightens my mood, nor do comments about my panties, which I'm wearing because my codpiece was chafing I clearly can't speak for anyone else other than myself though.

Now, let me just cut to the chase.

We don't have flame wars here. A troll might emerge from time to time, but they quickly realize that there are websites that have far more fertile ground that they can sow their seeds of discord in. Yes, We are respectful of each other, and don't use personal attacks as a way of trying to win an argument or score debate points. I realize that this is not how Internet message boards usually work, and it takes some getting used to, but what we have as a result of these "norms" is a tension free board where people's opinions are respected, even if they differ from the majority.

One of the big problems that many new posters have is that they think that they are "re-inventing the wheel", which is fine, but continuing to try an announce your "invention" or promote it becomes tedious. A few things that have been discussed here before-

GRRM is 64 years old, quite obese, and very likely at risk for a massive heart attack. He may not live to finish the series.

GRRM takes a lot of road trips, which takes time away from writing our beloved series. This is compounded by the fact that he can\t write when travelling.

GRRM has too many other projects going on- aSoIaF novellas, aSoIaF map books, Wild cards, various anthologies, TV shows, etc. etc. All of this takes time away from writing

GRRM writes (as he himself admits) very slowly.

GRRM is too much of a perfectionist

GRRM watches too much TV, football in particular.

There might be others, but you get the point, which is, the fans here are no different than the fans anywhere else. Everyone who regularly posts here is well aware of everything i just wrote. If a new person shows up and wantd to say some of these things for the thousandth time people will listen and respond politely, but as Ursa said, it's the serial posting of the same arguments that becomes grating.

One last point. it's incredibly boring when everyone is in lockstep with everyone else and no one disagrees. Voices of dissent 9from main opinions) help people focus more clearly on what they believe, and perhaps even change their minds entirely. I personally welcome lively discussions where people hold wildly differing opinions, and I think everyone else here who posts regularly would agree.

 

[kshRox]

Just speaking for myself personally, snarkiness and sarcasm NEVER lightens my mood, nor do comments about my panties, which I'm wearing because my codpiece was chafing I clearly can't speak for anyone else other than myself though.

Now, let me just cut to the chase.

We don't have flame wars here. A troll might emerge from time to time, but they quickly realize that there are websites that have far more fertile ground that they can sow their seeds of discord in. Yes, We are respectful of each other, and don't use personal attacks as a way of trying to win an argument or score debate points. I realize that this is not how Internet message boards usually work, and it takes some getting used to, but what we have as a result of these "norms" is a tension free board where people's opinions are respected, even if they differ from the majority.

One of the big problems that many new posters have is that they think that they are "re-inventing the wheel", which is fine, but continuing to try an announce your "invention" or promote it becomes tedious. A few things that have been discussed here before-

GRRM is 64 years old, quite obese, and very likely at risk for a massive heart attack. He may not live to finish the series.

GRRM takes a lot of road trips, which takes time away from writing our beloved series. This is compounded by the fact that he can\t write when travelling.

GRRM has too many other projects going on- aSoIaF novellas, aSoIaF map books, Wild cards, various anthologies, TV shows, etc. etc. All of this takes time away from writing

GRRM writes (as he himself admits) very slowly.

GRRM is too much of a perfectionist

GRRM watches too much TV, football in particular.

There might be others, but you get the point, which is, the fans here are no different than the fans anywhere else. Everyone who regularly posts here is well aware of everything i just wrote. If a new person shows up and wantd to say some of these things for the thousandth time people will listen and respond politely, but as Ursa said, it's the serial posting of the same arguments that becomes grating.

One last point. it's incredibly boring when everyone is in lockstep with everyone else and no one disagrees. Voices of dissent 9from main opinions) help people focus more clearly on what they believe, and perhaps even change their minds entirely. I personally welcome lively discussions where people hold wildly differing opinions, and I think everyone else here who posts regularly would agree.

Look, I'm sorry if what I thought were tongue-in-cheek comments did not have the desired effect - to wratchet down the tension level.

As for your other comments, I feel like your insinuating I'm a troll if not out-right saying it. OK, that stings a little, but you are entitled to your opinion.

It also seems pretty clear that you are saying there is no room for comments or discussion that does not fall in line with you and your friends line of thought by asserting it is old ground you've already covered.

Again, OK, there are plenty of ways to stifle conversation or idea's you don't like, that works as well as any I guess.

I'll leave you and your friends to what I consider an intolerant and one-sided view of GRRM and his work.

 

[The Imp]

Look, I'm sorry if what I thought were tongue-in-cheek comments did not have the desired effect - to wratchet down the tension level.

As for your other comments, I feel like your insinuating I'm a troll if not out-right saying it. OK, that stings a little, but you are entitled to your opinion.

It also seems pretty clear that you are saying there is no room for comments or discussion that does not fall in line with you and your friends line of thought by asserting it is old ground you've already covered.

Again, OK, there are plenty of ways to stifle conversation or idea's you don't like, that works as well as any I guess.

I'll leave you and your friends to what I consider an intolerant and one-sided view of GRRM and his work.

Your comment wasn't anywhere near troll-worthy. I don't insinuate, one of my many faults is saying what's on my mind. If I thought you were a troll I'd say so.

As for not welcoming |dissenting opinions, is this not crystal clear?

There might be others, but you get the point, which is, the fans here are no different than the fans anywhere else. Everyone who regularly posts here is well aware of everything i just wrote. If a new person shows up and wantd to say some of these things for the thousandth time people will listen and respond politely, but as Ursa said, it's the serial posting of the same arguments that becomes grating

Sorry if you don't feel welcome, but that's absolutely not the case. Post whatever you feel like, as often as you feel like doing so. The "stifling" will be the crickets you hear if you (or anyone else, including me) keep posting the same tired stuff that any fan/critic of GRRM has seen many times before. All I'm saying is that works well on larger message boards, where you might find newer readrs, or maybe even people who haven't read the books at all. You won't get much of a response here.

And that's it for me on this topic. If I want to argue there are sports and political forums I belong to where the arguments are 24/7 and everyone's panties are bunched up

 

[kshRox]

Thanks Imp.
I appreciate your supportive comments.

 

[Anushka Mokosh]

Look, I'm sorry if what I thought were tongue-in-cheek comments did not have the desired effect - to wratchet down the tension level.

As for your other comments, I feel like your insinuating I'm a troll if not out-right saying it. OK, that stings a little, but you are entitled to your opinion.

I don't think he insinuated you're a troll. He just mentioned their short-lived existence here.

It also seems pretty clear that you are saying there is no room for comments or discussion that does not fall in line with you and your friends line of thought by asserting it is old ground you've already covered.

Again, OK, there are plenty of ways to stifle conversation or idea's you don't like, that works as well as any I guess.

I'll leave you and your friends to what I consider an intolerant and one-sided view of GRRM and his work.

He never said you are not allowed to disagree, he just said that saying the same thing over and over again without giving a new reasons and proofs is tedious and irritating. In fact, his last sentence clearly negates your conclusion.

And once again, I'm entering a discussion after it's over.

 

[Needle]

kshRox, I just want to say here that I am not criticizing you at all. Honestly, although I opened my comments with "snarkiness and sarcasm" my comments were mainly directed at garion who simply keeps stating over and over- basically ADWD sucks because GRRM is money hungry and no longer cares about the books-now the books suck-I don't like them and if you don't agree with me you must be a "fan boy". This is not lingo I am familiar with but I'm pretty sure it's an insult.

I agree that ADWD was not up to par, could choke Dany myself just to shut her up! But the reasons are myriad why this could be. Anyway that is all I have to say on this matter. Please join us for better discussions in other thread.

FYI- I never get my panties in a bunch-don't wear any!

 

[kshRox]

FYI- I never get my panties in a bunch-don't wear any!

Well, I apologize to Imp for my snarky comments.
I really meant them tongue in cheek.

Also very much appreciated him addressing my concerns as well as you too.

I do want you to know your FYI does bring up some very interesting mental images!
Especially with such an intriguing avatar.

Completely unbidden, but . . .

 

[The Imp]

Well, I apologize to Imp for my snarky comments.
I really meant them tongue in cheek.

Also very much appreciated him addressing my concerns as well as you too.

I do want you to know your FYI does bring up some very interesting mental images!
Especially with such an intriguing avatar.

Completely unbidden, but . . .

Just as an FYI, I can be as snarky and sarcastic as anyone, just ask my wife I just try to restrain myself here. It's also worth noting that I've had to apologize on more than one occasion.

As for Needle's post, i can only get into trouble if I comment

 

[Ursa major]

I wouldn't mind engaging in a conversation concerning whether GRRM sold out or not - what in his work lends to this idea or what does not. The impact of selling out and syndication in general and how this impacts the industry.

If the thread is a genuine debate, that's fine by me.

Again, if this topic doesn't interest you then why do you keep responding?

Because apart from my general duties as a mod, I'm also meant to be making sure flame wars don't break out in here. Okay, it's a rather easy job, to be fair, because the members here are usually far too sensible to go down that route. However, we - the general membership - like to prevent threads heading off that way, by asking for examples to back up assertions, and by guiding people away from ad hominem attacks.


That's one of the reasons I was suggesting that evidence ought to be provided with the assertion(s). The main reason, though, is that if someone keeps making bald statements, it:

• puts the onus on the rest of us to prove the statement wrong, which can be difficult (proving a negative is sometimes a hiding to nothing), and wasteful (particularly where the assertion is general);
• prevents the poster of the bald statement from convincing others of their case, because an assertion is not usually very persuasive on its own.

If you think this is a one-note topic I would point out that it's rather interesting trying to move on to a general discussion when GRRM fans appear to attack anyone for saying anything critical of the author bringing us back to the main points.

If those "bringing us back" provided extra evidence (or some evidence, where none has been previously forthcoming), that's fine. Saying the same thing over and over again, and seemingly getting more frustrated each time, is not the way to go. Argue points with evidence, or examples, rather than trying to debate what are simply beliefs.

I suspect you're another one-note Johnny concerning GRRM from previous comments and frankly believe your disrupting a conversation because you don't like the content rather than moderating so . . .

You can suspect all you like. You'll find that I debate all sorts of issues on these boards. Debating, however, requires something to debate, rather than a one-note moan.

fine, I'll move on and leave it alone because obviously there is a bias against criticism of GRRM.

There's a bias against evidence-free whinging and moaning (and evidence-free fanboying, if that's a word, for that matter), and for proper debate. If you'd been reading my previous posts, you might have noticed that I was trying to encourage this.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Removed a couple of posts - let's try and keep it civil and non-argumentative, thanks!

 

[Anushka Mokosh]

Enough you guys. I keep getting mail that you posted something only to see it removed. (I hope this won't get removed) The discussion is getting out of hands. Let's just stick to topic and if you feel the need to settle score with someone you think offended you or you're being accused of doing so, deal with it via PM or just forget about it.

Now back to the topic at hand. As I mentioned in another thread, I don't thing G.R.R.M. sold out and decided to change his ending because the show is a hit. He's an old guy who likes to do things his own way. He never ever cared about what we think, he doesn't do things to appeal to his fans. He does whatever he wants. In those novels, he's a god, the ultimate player of the game and from the interviews I've seen, I get the feeling he likes it very much. (I know I would.)

Fans like his novels because they are unpredictable. If he were to become completely predictable for the sake of his fans' conjectures coming true, I think he'd lose a substantial portion of his fan-base and I think he is aware of that. I don't think he would risk the fans he has for fans he might never get or try to please fans he has (they are already buying books so why do exactly what they want?).
So far, everything fits to the plot that already happened and everything that was mentioned. We won't really know if he sold out until the last book though. It will definitely be a bitter-sweet ending and bitter to sweet ratio will give us the final conclusion about all of this.

That's what I stated before and I stand by it. I still haven't seen any proof of him changing his ways. True, I was dissatisfied with ADWD but mostly because the plot was so slow and nothing major happened (probably because ADWD and AFFC are actually chronologically parallel). I agree that the book was a filler, but it had to happen. As for the gore, sex and violence getting more book-time, is seems normal to me. If you slow down the plot that much, you have to linger on the details and let's face it, Westeros as Martin wrote it is full of sex, gore and violence and is a part of their everyday life. Since nothing of greater importance is happening, he is dedicating more attention to those parts of everyday life.

Just my opinion. Agree or disagree just give me reasons for it.

 

[The Imp]

The book has been far better for me the second time around. In an effort to find out what happened as quickly as possible, I really rushed through it the first go round, and I think the (apparent) quality of the book suffered.

I don't believe that GRRM lies to his fans (on purpose), so i believe him when he says that he was going through sheer hell trying to unravel the Meereenese Knot. It follows then that the literary corner he wrote himself into probably delayed the publication of aDWD by at least a year.it was his need to write the perfect book that resulted in the ultimate release date, not some Machiavellian machinations based on the erroneous notion that he would profit from the book more if the show was a success. The show could have just as easily been a failure by the way.

If GRRM only cared about the money, he would have cranked out TWoW already in order to take advantage of the extreme popularity of Game of Thrones (HBO) and aDWD. IMO, the available evidence supports a theory of GRRM being more worried about the quality of his final product than the bottom line of his check book

 

[bubba-gump]

The book has been far better for me the second time around. In an effort to find out what happened as quickly as possible, I really rushed through it the first go round, and I think the (apparent) quality of the book suffered.

I've been thinking this for a while but I feel I can't reread aDwD without rereading the whole series which is rather daunting!

This is my first post and I felt I had to put in my tuppence worth with this question because it's obvious GRRM won't change his story to make a few more bucks. If he was like that he would have jumped at the $millions offered for movie deals years ago! but he didn't, why, because story came first and he felt his story wouldn't thrive in film format.
Secondly, the way GRRM writes makes me think he's not one to change his story for the whims of studio execs or even rabid fans, much as we try!

 

[The Imp]

I've been thinking this for a while but I feel I can't reread aDwD without rereading the whole series which is rather daunting!

This is my first post and I felt I had to put in my tuppence worth with this question because it's obvious GRRM won't change his story to make a few more bucks. If he was like that he would have jumped at the $millions offered for movie deals years ago! but he didn't, why, because story came first and he felt his story wouldn't thrive in film format.
Secondly, the way GRRM writes makes me think he's not one to change his story for the whims of studio execs or even rabid fans, much as we try!

Ahoy, and welcome Bubba

You hit the nail on the head. GRRM has stated that the reasons he went with HBO were

Dan and Dave convinced him that they loved the story as it was and would remain true to it. GRRM has stated that he has zero control over content, and they can do whatever they like, but he is confident they will remain faithful to the books

Also, GRRM wanted HBO becuase of concerns about censorship, espcially if hthe show got an early network time slot. 8 PM EST would be especially bad. Obviously, no matter what time it airs on HBO, they can pretty much show whatever they feel like, as we have seen in some of the "infohump" scenes

and remember bubba, life is like a bowl of stewed mushrooms, you can never be quite sure of what you're going to get (unless your host tastes them first)

 

[bubba-gump]

thanks for the welcome Imp, and the tip!