Gratuitous Rape in Fantasy novels

[Warren_Paul]

Come on, we're not all sexist ignorant pigs.

Sorry, you are right to put the some in there. But being a guy myself, the some is implied anyway.... It is a mentality that has become all too common though.


btw, my source for that comment about involuntary body reactions came from being present at a rape victims seminar, because somebody close to me was also a victim of rape, and she too got confused with the way her body reacted, and started to wonder if she actually 'enjoyed' it. She didn't though, it was part of the trauma, and like I said, being confused.

 

[David Evil Overlord]

But it doesn't apply to men who've been raped by a woman, does it? Or does it (in fiction)?

A friend of mine studied Sexual Psychology at University. She said that men who reported they had been raped by women were routinely laughed at by authorities, because us men are apparently supposed to be ready for sex at the drop of a pair of panties. We, supposedly, don't need to be raped by women. We're always willing. Well, some of us are people, not stereotypes.

My friend also mentioned one case where a man who had just been raped by a woman went straight to a bar and beat the crap out of the first man he met there. His masculinity had been taken away by this woman, so he tried to get it back through random violence.

EDIT: That'll teach me to read the whole thread before posting a response to an earlier comment. Hope, than you for being brave enough to share that with us. *hugs Hope*

 

[Ursa major]

To the best of my knowledge: in England and Welsh law, rape can only be performed by men, not women. (I won't spell out why, but I'm sure you can guess.) Other things that may be described as rape (e.g. men being raped by women) would, I believe, be serious sexual assaults.

I'm not sure when** the specific definition was introduced into English law, so this may not always have been the case, and I don't know how other countries' laws define rape. (And if just about everyone here thinks of those sexual assault as rape, one or more characters in a book may think this too.)


EDIT: I wrote this before seeing Hope's post (which must make my nitpicking about the legal position in England seem rather superfluous, if not hard hearted). I'm lost for words regarding Hope's awful experience and instead can only wish her well.



** - According to the Rape Crisis website, the "Sexual Offences Act 2003 (the Act) came into force on the 1 May 2004." Whether the definition was simply copied from an earlier statute, I don't know.

 

[Brian G Turner]

I get a bit annoyed when I read RH's what I'd consider racist term, 'privileged white male author' and would like to point out that ecchi anime/manga is way more perverted and objectifying of women than any books written by 'white males' I've read. If RH were to turn their attention in that direction, the writer would have a field day with it. The issue RH complains about isn't solely with the western world.

Indeed - pot, kettle, hypocrit, come to mind. My take, though, is that unpleasant as hate can be in any form, like any good troll there's a grain of truth in there, no matter how exaggerated and distorted. The sad fact is, though, that a lot of writers could do with being more aware of how they handle gender, sexuality, race and similar important issues, and RH gets the message across with a sledgehammer.

 

[Gary Compton]

as someone who has been raped I've been watching this thread with interest, and am pleased with the responses. I dont think that rape should be excluded from fiction just because it is a horrible thing to happen, and its good to know that most/some the people who are going forward with putting it in are doing their research into long-term effects and such.

If its in a longstanding relationship as a part of domestic violence its best to enjoy it as much as possible, though that isn't always much. But this makes it harder to get over later and is part of a larger Stockholm syndrome response of "well I'm in for the long haul with this guy I better do what will be least unpleasant and get it over with" and can change the definition of rape.

A friend of mine once said "rape is anything where you are not emotionally present for the sex act" to which I responded "well then I've only not been raped twice."

So it's important to know how the character defines rape when and if it happens.

I heard an argument once that hookers only get raped if they aren't paid. I cant see that as being true in any way. I can see how they could be raping themselves as a profession though. But that might just be my personal experiences twisting my perspective on how things could go.


I've had to take a hard look at how I define rape in my life, and its tricky. Sometimes I want to agree with my friend, but that leaves one's partners open to unintentional rape, I mean if they are present and I"m not then is it my fault they raped me? Probably, especially if I wasn't honest enough to say so.

Or I could define it succumbing to someone else's unwanted advances, Date Rape sort of things. Then again, is it my fault they raped me? I'm the one who didn't stand up for myself after all.

Or is it just the times when I didn't want it and after expressing myself to be of such an opinion had my wishes disregarded?


Under any of these cases I would say that rape hasnt defined my life, although there is no escaping how it has shaped it. Since the first case was when I was ridiculously young (please dont ask how young, I'll answer and it would break your heart) it definitely shaped how I interacted with people from a young age. When I finally did come to sexual maturity the memory had been sufficiently repressed that I didnt understand how it was still shaping my interactions. Then later in life when the memory resurfaced and so much of my interactions and strange reactions became clear to me I had to admit that it really had happened and that it had shaped my life.

But something that shapes your life and something that defines your life are not the same thing. Something that defines your life holds all your focus and is where you put your energy. Something that shapes your life is something that changes the shape of your perspective, not necessarily something that changes what you look at.

We all have a chose in what we look at. Not always what we see. Not always in what we can do about it. But I think that not looking is the most tragic thing a person can do.

Sejena Hope. You opened up your soul in that post and I literally fell back in my chair.

Wow Mrs Wonderful - you are strong, loving and courageous for sharing that.

I LOVE you as a friend, as a woman of substance, and as a confidant

I hope, excuse the pun, that this thread doesnt rake the memories up for you.

Lots of love and keep smiling

XXX

 

[hopewrites]

Well that's the thing (and thanks to everyone for their out-poring of support) for about 25 years I didn't deal with it (anyone who knows how old I am dont do the math cause I didnt exaggerate) then just before I found this site I had to start dealing with it. So it doesnt rake up the memories for me, and if it was detrimental to my emotional stability I could easily just avoid reading the thread. Mainly I wanted to say how grateful I am that people are taking the subject seriously, and thinking about the repercussions for their characters.

Yes a body reacts in ways we don't always want it to. Anyone one in middle school caring their books to hide what their body is up to without their consent will tell you that. And there is alot about being raped that is confusing. Espically if its not a violent rape. Personally I think those are more damaging than the violent ones. The person who is acting out agaist you is also professing to care, and then acting in a way that shows they dont. The body reacts to stimuli whether the mind and heart wish to accept the source of the stimuli.

I can see how that would make a male rape case harder to prove, and I know for a fact that a rape case where your story is doubted is harder to deal with than if people get behind you and are bloodthirsty for "justice".

The reason I love reading is that it's a chance to look at what other people have dealt with, fictional or not, and how they chose to deal with it.

Even if your characters chose not to deal with what happens to them, there are consequences to those choices. One of the ways I chose to deal with what happened to me is to make myself available to writers I respect (that means you guys, and yes that means you can PM me to see what I think about your characters reactions. I'd be honored to give my opinion.) who want to fully develop their characters and help them to move forward with their stories in a realistic way.

Then when your books get out there, and someone who has gone through something tragic reads them and says "I can get through this" because they know they will or wont be like your characters, I can feel that I've shed a little of the wrong that was done to me in helping someone else.

What I love about writing is that anything that happens to my characters will change them, one way or another. People rise up to met challenge in many ways.

Persuasion is one of my favorite Jane Austen novels because it shows how doing something that on the surface seems deftest really shows a lot of strength and courage. She appears to give in to family and friends, but really she is just trying to get through and show as much love as she can to the people she cares for.

 

[Warren_Paul]

... I know for a fact that a rape case where your story is doubted is harder to deal with than if people get behind you and are bloodthirsty for "justice".

This is the most sad of all; when people doubt the legitimacy of the charge. It hurts friendships, and families, and forces rifts between people.

I can speak from experience seeing the victim's friends and family turn against them and say that the perpetrator was the actual victim, and that the victim seduced him. I've seen it nearly tear a family apart. It is very troubling. Thankfully, the authorities have a bit more respect for the victims here - sad that I can't say that for the entire world - and took the victim's side and did the right thing. But it took a long time to repair the damage those scared, misguided words did.


I think you are an amazing person, Hope, to be so strong and talk about your experience with us. *hugs*

 

[Reivax26]

Rape in fantasy novels is a touchy subject. My favorite author, David Gemmell, only touched on the subject a few times in all of his books. The one that I remember the best was Tanaki in Quest for Lost Heroes.

I thought he did a very realistic portrayal of it to be honest.

 

[hopewrites]

There was something else I kept meaning to post about, but I couldn't remember the other two times I had posted.

The bit about purity, I know we've kinda moved on a bit, but I wanted to say that there are some Religions who haven't let go of the idea of virginal purity, for both genders not just us females. So although society would like to say its very forward thinking and accepting of people of diverse sexual experience and taste, most people are still tied to or at least aware of the ideal that a persons sexuality is sacred.

I wouldn't ague too much with that. The power to create life should be treated with reverence and respect.

It could be comical to try and imagine a rapist who had respect for life and its creation process, if anything about rape could be comical.

I was raised in a household where a lot of emphasis was placed on respecting one's body and that extended to all aspects of it. What one ate, what one wore, to speak nothing of the taboo on extramarital sex or tattoos.

I've kind of moved away from the extremities of that ideal system. Though I hold to the root of the idea that how we treat our bodies shows the kind of respect and love we have for our self.

So a violation of someones body, could be felt as a violation of everything they are. A misuse of life creating powers (because I've never heard of a rapist running around with a condom on.) even if no life is created from it could still be felt strongly by the victim.

I did hear of a guy who claimed a woman had "stolen his baby" in that she got pregnant off him when he didn't want to be a father. He said she lied to him about where she was in her cycle and knowingly stole life from him.
They eventually made it up, and he mostly forgave her. Seeing your son's face will do that to a man I guess.

 

[Tyler Danann]

In the book I'm writing right, now there's no rape scenes. It's a ghastly subject, one in which the writer must avoid or fringe-around if possible.

However, one of the main villains in the book does use sodomy as both a tool of pleasure and one in which he breaks down the defiant will of another (which it was and is still used for alas). I 'tell' about him doing this but don't 'show' it if you get my meaning.

Same for sex / love scenes but more 'showing' and less 'telling'

 

[Tyler Danann]

Rape in fantasy novels is a touchy subject. My favorite author, David Gemmell, only touched on the subject a few times in all of his books. The one that I remember the best was Tanaki in Quest for Lost Heroes.

I thought he did a very realistic portrayal of it to be honest.

Was that at the beginning by the raider-band? I didn't like that bit, I was hoping Waylander was going to come on the scene and kick some ass. He does but later, in the day or so after the rape took place.

 

[Tyler Danann]

A friend of mine studied Sexual Psychology at University. She said that men who reported they had been raped by women were routinely laughed at by authorities, because us men are apparently supposed to be ready for sex at the drop of a pair of panties. We, supposedly, don't need to be raped by women. We're always willing.

A female friend of mine looked into this. She said that in most cases those same men claiming female rape are effeminate or bisexual, so they are more 'vulnerable' to 'forward' women. That's why it's so seldom and rare.

My friend also mentioned one case where a man who had just been raped by a woman went straight to a bar and beat the crap out of the first man he met there. His masculinity had been taken away by this woman, so he tried to get it back through random violence.

He wasn't likely to of been raped if he has the capacity to beat the crap out of another man from being 'abused' by a woman.

Well I'm going to ruffle some feathers here and say that any man who ends up being raped by a women is either not fighting back hard enough or she had a massive force multiplier like a firearm or blade to coerce him with.

 

[hopewrites]

Well I'm going to ruffle some feathers here and say that any man who ends up being raped by a women is either not fighting back hard enough or she had a massive force multiplier like a firearm or blade to coerce him with.

emotional blackmail works wonders.

 

[Tyler Danann]

emotional blackmail works wonders.

That would be more a date-rape or even stolen-sex.

 

[hopewrites]

Date rape is still rape, no mater which gender is the aggressor.

 

[Mouse]

Well I'm going to ruffle some feathers here and say that any man who ends up being raped by a women is either not fighting back hard enough or she had a massive force multiplier like a firearm or blade to coerce him with.

Uh no. Some women are stronger than men, you know. One of my friends is Britain's 5th (it might be 4th now) Strongest Woman and she's stronger than all my male friends. Also, what about drugs/alcohol and stuff like that? Don't be so narrow minded.

And, while I'm here, given the numbers of members on this forum, and given statistics, how many people reading this are going to have experience of this themselves? I think some people need to be mindful of what they're saying.

Hope is incredibly brave for posting, but that doesn't mean that anybody who doesn't want to talk about stuff isn't brave.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Well said, Mouse.

In the book I'm writing right, now there's no rape scenes. It's a ghastly subject, one in which the writer must avoid or fringe-around if possible.

However, one of the main villains in the book does use sodomy as both a tool of pleasure and one in which he breaks down the defiant will of another (which it was and is still used for alas). I 'tell' about him doing this but don't 'show' it if you get my meaning.

Same for sex / love scenes but more 'showing' and less 'telling'

If someone was sodomised against their will that is a form of rape. Legally rape is the insertion into the vagina and sodomy the anus, but if it is done against someone's will it is treated the same as a rape crime. I can't tell if that is what you have done, but it seems to be implied that it has been used n such a fashion.

 

[Kissmequick]

Well I'm going to ruffle some feathers here and say that any man who ends up being raped by a women is either not fighting back hard enough or she had a massive force multiplier like a firearm or blade to coerce him with.

Sorry, but that's exactly the crap that gets laid at female victims' doors too - why didn't you fight back? You should have been able to fight harder, one knee in the nuts and he ain't raping no one... If it was rape you would have shouted for help etc etc. And it's BS.

That the victim gets blamed is part of the whole huge problem with rape in society.

 

[hopewrites]

I completely agree mouse! I've had loads of support and the luxury of taking nearly two years of doing almost nothing but deal with it and its repercussions. I would certainly never judge anyone for not speaking out as I have.
The only things that have made doing so possible are the hours and hours a day I've put into healing and the time I've spent building trust for the members of this site. I didn't expect quite the number of people expressing their respect and gratitude as have both here and in private, and shame on me for not expecting my friends to applaud my efforts, but knowing that what I had to say would be respected and listened to gave me that last push of courage I needed to stand up and say "look I hope none of you know from experience like I do, but you're on the right track and this and this is why." The details of my experience are immaterial except in how they changed and shaped my views and interactions. The number of times or people who have victimized me or attempted to victimize me is only important when talking about the various ways in which a person can be assaulted.

 

[Warren_Paul]

Well I'm going to ruffle some feathers here and say that any man who ends up being raped by a women is either not fighting back hard enough or she had a massive force multiplier like a firearm or blade to coerce him with.

That would be more a date-rape or even stolen-sex.

So you're saying that date-rape isn't as bad as physically forced rape? I seriously frown at that. It doesn't matter how the rape came about, it's still rape, it's still taking something against their will. Not to mention I know plenty of women who are physically stronger than me.

I believe statistics show that the majority of rape is committed by a family member of the victim, or somebody they considered their friend, or at least knew beforehand and felt comfortable around. I would imagine in most of those cases, they were not necessarily physically restrained, regardless of their gender, but forced by other means, whether it be drugs, alcohol, emotional blackmail or serious threats. In the cases of male rape, it most certainly is intoxication and blackmail as the main culprits.

Read this: Can a man be raped by a woman? and the studies it links in the article. Take good notice of the second page where she mentions statistics of male rape. You'll be surprised.

I think we have TV to blame for the misconception that rape happens when people go out alone, late at night and get dragged down dark alleyways by strangers. That does happen, but accounts for only about 9% of rape cases.

But oh no, it's okay; men can't be raped... I'm sure they appreciate being told that they cheated on their partner by letting the woman rape them. [/endsarcasm]