Gratuitous Rape in Fantasy novels

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I've been avoiding posting in this thread. However, I feel like I have to respond. Hope is incredibly brave in posting and in her attitude, and I hope that her strength reminds anyone in such an awful situation that there is light at the end of the tunnel.

Well I'm going to ruffle some feathers here and say that any man who ends up being raped by a women is either not fighting back hard enough or she had a massive force multiplier like a firearm or blade to coerce him with.
Considering violence doesn't have to be overt, but can equate to intimidation and psychological pressure/abuse (quite apart from Mouse's excellent point), this is the equivalent of 'well, she shouldn't have been out at night on her own'.

I'm sorry, but such attitudes only make it more difficult for rape victims of any sex to come forward.

That would be more a date-rape or even stolen-sex.
Date Rape is still rape. I'm sorry, I don't usually use text speak, but WTF!?
 
A friend of mine studied Sexual Psychology at University. She said that men who reported they had been raped by women were routinely laughed at by authorities, because us men are apparently supposed to be ready for sex at the drop of a pair of panties. We, supposedly, don't need to be raped by women. We're always willing. Well, some of us are people, not stereotypes.

My friend also mentioned one case where a man who had just been raped by a woman went straight to a bar and beat the crap out of the first man he met there. His masculinity had been taken away by this woman, so he tried to get it back through random violence.

I maybe didn't make the point clearly enough, DEO -- I didn't mean men don't get raped or that it isn't appalling, I meant that you don't tend to encounter it in fiction. Whereas in fantasy many women get raped -- often apparently as a default need-a-traumatic-experience-so-obviously-it's-rape -- the fantasy I've read perpetuates the idea that men only have sex when they want (because they want to all the time).

It's part of the same problem -- woman as sexual victim/ man as sexual predator -- societally, we have an easy default pattern for thinking about these things and some authors never seem to get beyond that.

EDIT -- can I just add to the whole 's/he deserved it thing' with the idea that started it -- that somehow being sexually active makes you less of a victim. That is such rubbish that I can barely type for fury. But people believe it. It's like saying smiling at one person gives someone else the right to punch you in the face.

EDIT again -- you know one awful thing about date rape is that when I was growing up it happened so often it was almost normal. It was a fairly normal experience for a girl to be bought drinks (or not) and then to be pressured/ forced into sex against her will. More than half my friends first had sex that way (and probably didn't bother mentioning it after that first time). God that's depressing. And the guys weren't evil or dressed in black armour or anything, they were just normal guys -- a little older than us -- and they thought it was normal as well.
 
And thanks for pointing us back in the direction of the real topic of the thread, Hex. :)

If you're meaning by the comment I made in the other thread as being the thing that started it, I wasn't actually meaning being sexually active lessens the blow, I was meaning that the character's first sexual experience was rape. That has got to have an effect on her, and for the character to go chasing after some other guy afterwards implies to me that the character was thinking, 'oh well, I've lost my virginity now, so might as well not save myself for my true love and instead shag the first guy I come across.' Which seems nonsense to me.

The only way I could accept a person wanting to have sex straight after being raped was if they hoped it would help them get over the rape by replacing the nightmare experience with a better one, if possible, but even then, I'm not entirely convinced. Possible, yes, likely, no.

If a woman is raped, are they going to go straight home to their partner and want to have sex?


Oh dear... I think I just steered it off course again. :eek:


@Hope It was good to talk about the real effects in reality, as that will help us write better scenes involving it.
 
I agree, Hex, we don't see it in fiction that often. I'm sorry if I steered the topic more towards reality than fiction. I think as its emerging more in societies view we'll see it better explored, hopefully with taste, in fiction.

Catwoman and Black Widow are the only female sexual predators that come to mind at the moment. But I'm sure the crime dramas have had them.
 
Hope... wow. What you said takes a lot of strength, and I admire you for being so incredible. I hope you have an incredible life, with friends and family and everything that makes you happy.


I have to point out one thing, though I don't want to seem like I'm being antagonistic:


Espically if its not a violent rape. Personally I think those are more damaging than the violent ones.
While I understand where you're coming from (I really do) and I agree with everything else you've said, I can't agree with this. You have to understand that you're coming from this with your point of view from your experiences, and that others may have different experiences and views. I think you do, since you said "personally".

The idea that a stranger can beat you into submission with no warning - in a alley, in a back street, in a park - and force you against your will because they're stronger... that shakes a person up just as badly as other types, and I'm not lessening those other types, not at all. You don't look at strangers the same way, you don't look at alleys the same way, you feel so incredibly helpless and dirty, you wonder "Why me?"... I would definitely say it's on-par with every other type of rape simply because of the scars it leaves on a person and a person's family. Especially if it happens when a person is young and unworldly - and it affects everything and everyone around them, in ways people couldn't imagine.
 
hope -- I can only echo what everyone else said. Keep strong and happy.

Re the date/companion-rape against stranger rape -- it always worries me there's a tendency for people to think one is worse than the other. Different people will be affected different ways. The loss of trust in someone known can be devastating, just as the destroying of one's life by a stranger can be.

Anyhow, the thread issue is about the prevalence of rape in fantasy -- but is it also prevalent in SF does anyone know?
 
A female friend of mine looked into this. She said that in most cases those same men claiming female rape are effeminate or bisexual, so they are more 'vulnerable' to 'forward' women. That's why it's so seldom and rare..

Something to think about: are the effeminate or bisexual men more vulnerable, or are they perhaps skewing the statistics because they are the ones doing the reporting while the more "manly" men can't admit (perhaps even to themselves) that it happened to them?

He wasn't likely to of been raped if he has the capacity to beat the crap out of another man from being 'abused' by a woman.

Well I'm going to ruffle some feathers here and say that any man who ends up being raped by a women is either not fighting back hard enough or she had a massive force multiplier like a firearm or blade to coerce him with.

Do you know she did not? I don't know that detail. But I do know what it's like to have a blade held to your throat. Lucky for me, he only wanted money.

What if he had wanted more than money? Should I have fought back? I was unarmed. I was also twelve years old.

Did it affect me? Hell, yes. But not at the time. Then, my mind kept telling me this couldn't be happening. Later, it was telling me I was lucky to be alive.

And, no, I don't pretend to know what a rape victim has gone through.
 
Does it happen in dystopian sf?

Is there an element in which we're all supposed to be beyond the traditional so sex in sf is free and uncomplicated?

But then what about the girl who gets passed around like a toy in Brave New World? There's The Handmaid's Tale as well. And I know Blade Runner is not really what Philip K Dick wrote, but there is certainly sexual nastiness with the "pleasure" replicants. Plus, from the other side, in We, the rebel woman (whose name I have forgotten, 'X', I think) uses sex as a method of control in a rather freaky way.

Clearly, my science fiction reading is decades out of date.
 
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Wow, very interesting thread, with plenty of good replies.

Like many others here, I would like to praise hopewrites for the strength and courage to come out with this. I wish you only the best of luck in dealing with your traumatic experience, which can barely begin to understand.

I would also like to say that it is ludicrous to think a person cannot unwillingly be sexually aroused. The body will respond to certain stimuli of the genitals in certain ways, whether the mind was willing to go through with the sexual act or not. The body functions with plenty of involuntary responses like this (I do not know the medical terms, but I am still positive this is the case). Sure, it is possible (I am not sure) that it is slightly harder to get aroused if one is entirely unattracted by the other person, but far from impossible, as the body's response to physical stimuli is clearly largely separate from the mind.
This view seems to be more than a little akin to the absurd notion that victims of legitimate rape do not get pregnant (which is totally insensitive to raped women, in addition to totally unscientific crap, of course), because both place waaay to much control over bodily functions under the control of the will of the mind.

Like many other phenomena in human life, I guess the concept "rape", while intuitive, is hard to define. It is rather unsatisfactory to tie it to penetration, really. Saying it is "forced sex" is essentially correct, I guess, but one must remember that there are other ways than physical ones to force someone, making the word "force" is vague of and by itself. The law is pretty bound to make fairly strict definitions of criminal acts, which to be fair it must do, but which may also lead to splitting hairs at some points.
When we look beyond the technical, I think the core aspect is the complete and total violation of another person's privacy and integrity, often done to assert the power of the perpetrator over the victim. Metaphorical uses of the word "rape" also seem to focus mostly on this aspect, in my experience. I believe the essence of this is hard to capture in a legal document, however, leading to more technical definitions, but I still think this is the core, and frankly, short of murder, that is just about the worst thing one person could do to another.


Regarding the subject of the thread, how rape is portrayed in fiction, I have to wonder if part of the problem isn't a lack of understanding of it? I mean, normal people will obviously realize that it is a downright extremely awful, horrible and traumatic experience that leaves the victim severely psychologically harmed. Normal compassion will tell that much.
Still, those are really just generalities, with no real nuances and deeper understanding of the trauma. Understanding that a certain experience is emotionally horrific is not really to understand it. Certainly not on a level where you can portray it realistically. To do that, you would need to do plenty of research on real rape cases, I think, sparing little effort in delving into the psychology of the victims.
Just to clarify my point about a traumatic experience. I lost my father a little over a decade ago (and for the record, I do not compare that to rape, just let me get to my point), and the real experience was not the way I would have imagined it before it happened. Just as bad, definitely, but still very different than my earlier imagined, abstract and hypothetical version of the sadness of losing a parent, which was very one-dimensional, compared to the real thing.
I think being a victim of rape is both significantly more severe and complex psychologically than losing a parent, so I would imagine it would be even harder to truly understand beyond the generalities, unless you have personal experience.

What I think is that if an author decides to include rape just for drama, chances are they do little or no research on the psychology of it, and go by this one-dimensional understanding of the psychological effects of rape, and that may not be very accurate or plausible enough for a novel.
That is just my theory, though. hopewrites might be able to better tell us how similar the imagined version of being raped (from someone who has not experienced it) to the real one, if they wish, I guess.
 
I believe rape victims' bodies quite often get aroused or climax during rape, which is horrible and confusing and has nothing to do with finding the rapist attractive.

Also, I wonder why rape is so easily used in fiction -- does it have to do with the belief that it's the worst thing that can happen to a woman? or is it to do with a truly pure woman obviously not wanting to have sex, ever, so one way to keep her "pure" in the author's eyes is to have her raped (that's so twisted), or is it actually supposed to be sexual fantasy (which is significantly worse)?

Plus, I also wonder how much authors investigate violence and the effects of war on people -- really research rather than just imagine it.

AND would having a story about real war actually be one you'd want to read?
 
Wow, very interesting thread, with plenty of good replies.

Like many others here, I would like to praise hopewrites for the strength and courage to come out with this.

Me too.

Understanding that a certain experience is emotionally horrific is not really to understand it. Certainly not on a level where you can portray it realistically. To do that, you would need to do plenty of research on real rape cases, I think, sparing little effort in delving into the psychology of the victims.

I'd been trying to avoid saying this, but I have written a graphic rape scene, no holds barred. It's not gratuitous, being essential to the victim's story. It was a very difficult piece to write and I didn't research it at all. For me, it was important to focus on the emotions of the victim and too much research might have got in the way.

I read the scene at a writers' group and a book club and the reaction was overwhelming positive, but feel free to tell me I shouldn't have included all the detail.
 
I believe rape victims' bodies quite often get aroused or climax during rape, which is horrible and confusing and has nothing to do with finding the rapist attractive.

Exactly.

Also, I wonder why rape is so easily used in fiction -- does it have to do with the belief that it's the worst thing that can happen to a woman?
Maybe.

or is it to do with a truly pure woman obviously not wanting to have sex, ever, so one way to keep her "pure" in the author's eyes is to have her raped (that's so twisted),
I had not thought about that one, but yes, it is twisted.

or is it actually supposed to be sexual fantasy (which is significantly worse)?
Now we are going into a territory I barely want to know. I really hope this is not the case.

Plus, I also wonder how much authors investigate violence and the effects of war on people -- really research rather than just imagine it.
I am not sure. It may depend on genre. In a bit of a heroic genre, where fighting is really a central part of the action, I guess not all that much. I know a lot of works in these genres also get a bit of criticism for skipping the emotional effects of violence.

AND would having a story about real war actually be one you'd want to read?
Possibly. Maybe not delving too deeply into the worst parts of it, but a little research could add a sense of authenticity.
 
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I'd been trying to avoid saying this, but I have written a graphic rape scene, no holds barred. It's not gratuitous, being essential to the victim's story. It was a very difficult piece to write and I didn't research it at all. For me, it was important to focus on the emotions of the victim and too much research might have got in the way.

I read the scene at a writers' group and a book club and the reaction was overwhelming positive, but feel free to tell me I shouldn't have included all the detail.

I have not read your scene, so it is a bit hard for me to tell.

If you can plausibly capture the emotions of the victim, you probably have a great gift of imagination. I would guess the aftermath of the event would be even harder to portray than the scene itself, though. I think that is where the greatest challenge would be, but I could be wrong.
 
Me too.



I'd been trying to avoid saying this, but I have written a graphic rape scene, no holds barred. It's not gratuitous, being essential to the victim's story. It was a very difficult piece to write and I didn't research it at all. For me, it was important to focus on the emotions of the victim and too much research might have got in the way.

I read the scene at a writers' group and a book club and the reaction was overwhelming positive, but feel free to tell me I shouldn't have included all the detail.

I think if you have had beta feedback that's thoughtful hopefully you can rely on that, and that is wasn't gratuitous. The fact you are still worrying about it is another sign that it was a considered piece, i worry about my scenes all the time, but am reassured by beta reaction to them.
 
Coming back to the original post, I have to admit I haven't read many books with rape as a major event, but I get the impression that the blog linked to is talking about contemporary-set fantasy (UF? YA?) and a rape that affects the protagonist, not something like GRRM where the rape is often a side-event and just one symptom of the brutalising effects of war*.

There's a certain (deluded) mindset that if you want to create a "kickass" female character, a good way to establish motivation towards violence is to have her be a rape victim. This trope is sloppy unimaginative writing, not to mention horribly disrespectful towards real victims of such violence. There are also writers who seem to think that the only way to put a female character in peril is to have her raped or threatened with rape - as if violence towards women can only ever be expressed sexually.

* Not that I enjoy GRRM harping on about rape either, but it's a very different use of the subject
 
I've just skimmed through a lot of the posts, but not all. So if this has been covered already.....

There is another kind of fantasy rape fiction that was much more common a couple decades ago than today. That of the strong, usually warrior woman, constantly being overpowered by stronger men who "have their way". And although she is always an unwilling participant, her body "betrays" her and she loses herself into the experience.

The character is never maimed mentally by these events. She just gets up, dusts herself off and continues with her adventure until the next assault. And so on, and so on.

Anyone who has read Sharon Green's older books knows what I am talking about. As a side note, I always found it interesting that it was a woman writing these rape fantasies for men.

Then there are the infamous Gor novels where "real" women cannot help having their sexual desires aroused when confronted by a Gorian warrior. One who knows what women really want.

These rape fantasy books could not be further from reality. But judging by the number written, they were quite popular, mostly, I imagine, amongst young men who hadn't a clue how to interact with a flesh and blood member of the opposite sex.
 
I have not read your scene, so it is a bit hard for me to tell.

I'm not going to post it here, so it will remain unjudged unless I manage to get the novel published, in which case I will point everyone in the right direction.

I would guess the aftermath of the event would be even harder to portray than the scene itself, though. I think that is where the greatest challenge would be, but I could be wrong.

In the immediate aftermath, she is violently sick, but I guess you mean the long-term affect. I've tried to show that the rape and other events have contributed to make a stronger person than she would otherwise have been.

I think if you have had beta feedback that's thoughtful hopefully you can rely on that, and that is wasn't gratuitous. The fact you are still worrying about it is another sign that it was a considered piece, i worry about my scenes all the time, but am reassured by beta reaction to them.

Thanks, Springs, that's encouraging.
 
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