Gratuitous Rape in Fantasy novels

[Kissmequick]

Of course you can write about it.

The difference is, as always, in the execution - how you handle it, the prominence/graphicness you give it, what it adds to the plot (something, I really really hope, esp. if graphic - I'd say 99 times out of a hundred we don't need to see it in all its gruesome detail ETA: and if written well, implications can be so much more vivid than letting it all hang out), what it means to the characters and how it affects them etc etc

Unfortunately, it's been used so often, so...problematically shall we say? that it means you may have to try that bit harder. It's not something you can just throw in as a 'Hmm, I need to prod her to make her do something. Something nasty to motivate her. Oh, I know!'

 

[AnyaKimlin]

I think with any controversial issues that the important thing is to write well rounded, believable characters. It does not have to be realistic as much as it should be believable and for the character to make sense with their actions.

 

[David Evil Overlord]

And back to the fiction after my earlier threadjacking...

I remember now that The Desert Spear by Peter V Brett contains a male-male rape scene. It seems to be the motivating factor for the victim to become the greatest warrior he can be, revenge himself upon his attacker (with another male-male rape scene, with the earlier roles reversed), and go on to be a leader of the "you have failed me for the last time!" variety.

The Amazon warrior novels of Sharon Green (mentioned upthread) have two contrasting societies: the male-dominated cities, and the female-dominated Amazon tribes. While they did feature men raping women, they also featured women raping men (hard to perpetuate an Amazon clan without men or cloning, and the technology level doesn't support cloning). Something to offend everyone? Don't know how the series turned out -- I believe there were five books, and I've only read the first one.

I once tried reading one of the Gor novels. It mostly seemed to consist of two women arguing about whether a woman should be a willing sex slave for any "real" man who wanted her right then and there, or whether a woman should (gasp!) have some sort of rights, like she was a real person or something.

 

[Toby Frost]

I hope the crass, cheesy, bad writing refers to gratuitous rape and not considered presentation of a difficult subject.

Yes, of course. The point I was trying to make was that it's a bad way to justify the character going on an exciting killing spree, and to use it solely as that is bad and false, because it obviously has to entail more than that. To put it more broadly, if you make bad things happen to characters in a story that's even halfway realistic, the bad things have to have a credible effect on them. I am going to stop commenting in this thread, as I seem to be finding it hard to express myself clearly. Anne's post covered this ground well, and my main point in posting was simply to express agreement.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

. I am going to stop commenting in this thread, as I seem to be finding it hard to express myself clearly. Anne's post covered this ground well, and my main point in posting was simply to express agreement.

That makes two of us, i keep tying myself in knots and deleting posts... i think we are all saying the same thing in different ways.

 

[Beef]

I've been following this thread for a bit and the interesting question that keeps popping up in my mind is: 'Why is rape such an issue and yet something like murder isn't, at least not to the same extent?'

Both are pretty abhorrent crimes, but I think most would agree that murder is in most cases worse. And yet, more often than not, someone is murdered in pretty much every piece of fiction on my bookshelf. I'm not just talking about GRRM, where people are getting impaled left and right, and you have quite grisly and detailed descriptions of people mutilating one another. Even enormously popular soap operas have the odd murder in, on occasion, just to move the plot along.

I think the distinction lies in the fact that our society accepts what murder is, and murderers, for the most part, are caught and punished. But in the case of rape, that doesn't happen. It's almost like a collective guilt we all have that we fail as a species when it comes to even recognising this one particular crime. We get into long-winded discussions about what rape even is. We try to quantify it.

I would probably struggle to do justice to rape, were I to decide to address it. I would be afraid that someone who actually has experience of rape would read it and think "That's bullsh*t, that's not how things are at all, this person has no idea what they are talking about."
But another danger might be someone who, like me, has no experience of rape, might read my awful rape scene and think "Yes, that fits with my idea of what a rape is." And i'd just be propogating this quite narrow idea of what constitutes a rape. I'd be propogating a myth. And it might be absolute garbage and implausible and insensitive, but worse, when you consider how fiction shapes our perceptions of other people (especially the opposite sex), someone might actually read it and say "yes this is what rape is" when it really, really isn't.

 

[Darth Angelus]

There's a certain (deluded) mindset that if you want to create a "kickass" female character, a good way to establish motivation towards violence is to have her be a rape victim. This trope is sloppy unimaginative writing, not to mention horribly disrespectful towards real victims of such violence. There are also writers who seem to think that the only way to put a female character in peril is to have her raped or threatened with rape - as if violence towards women can only ever be expressed sexually.

That trope is atrocious, no doubt about it.
It is clearly the simplest, cheapest way to traumatize the female character in question, making it very sloppy and unimaginative indeed.
As for the part of it being "horribly disrespectful" to real victims of such violence, I can see that angle of it, and I want to agree, but there is a catch that makes me not so sure I can. The problem is that you could apply analogous reasoning to pretty much any severely morally wrong act in fiction. Many genres invariably need some kind of wrongs commited to drive the plot. Crime is an obvious example, very much as the genre name implies, but really in any genre where you have a villain. Wrongs written into fiction (and I talk about severe ones here, even going into something as extreme as genocide) will almost always have some kind of real world equivalent. Is it disrespectful to real victims of some wrong to use it to drive the plot in fiction?
I fear such a principle could become a bit problematic for writers. It is hard not to step on anyone's toes when there are barely any spots left where there are no toes, if you see what I mean.
Yes, rape is used in a very cheap way here, and it is poor writing, but does that really make it respectless to real victims? I am not sure where I stand on this.
In any case,I find there are other aspects of that trope that are far more morally objectionable, such as the sexism, and the very message itself that someone who gets raped becomes "kickass".

But, in any case, we agree that it is both bad writing and wrong to use this trope.

I'm not going to post it here, so it will remain unjudged unless I manage to get the novel published, in which case I will point everyone in the right direction.

Nor do I expect you to. What I meant was just that I was speaking in general, not about your work specifically.

In the immediate aftermath, she is violently sick, but I guess you mean the long-term affect. I've tried to show that the rape and other events have contributed to make a stronger person than she would otherwise have been.

Yes, I meant it in the long-term perspective.
Anyway, as for her becoming a stronger person than she would otherwise have been, I am sorry, but I don't think that would quite work, even though it depends on what you mean by that. If anything, I would guess that quite the opposite would happen, really. It is more likely to lead to insecurity and distrustfulness, possibly with reduced faith in mankind, I believe.
I don't really know rape victims, though, so it is kind of speculation on my part, but strengthening the victim as a person just does not quite ring true.
I guess your idea is somewhat along the lines of that in rough situations, people harden as needed to adapt, becoming stronger for it, am I right? It is a rather common trope, and true to an extent, I believe. However, the rough part cannot be anything too extreme. Rape would just be too much of a psychological shock (for lack of a better term) for the victim to be able to adapt.

 

[Darth Angelus]

I've been following this thread for a bit and the interesting question that keeps popping up in my mind is: 'Why is rape such an issue and yet something like murder isn't, at least not to the same extent?'

Both are pretty abhorrent crimes, but I think most would agree that murder is in most cases worse. And yet, more often than not, someone is murdered in pretty much every piece of fiction on my bookshelf. I'm not just talking about GRRM, where people are getting impaled left and right, and you have quite grisly and detailed descriptions of people mutilating one another. Even enormously popular soap operas have the odd murder in, on occasion, just to move the plot along.

I think the distinction lies in the fact that our society accepts what murder is, and murderers, for the most part, are caught and punished. But in the case of rape, that doesn't happen. It's almost like a collective guilt we all have that we fail as a species when it comes to even recognising this one particular crime. We get into long-winded discussions about what rape even is. We try to quantify it.

I would probably struggle to do justice to rape, were I to decide to address it. I would be afraid that someone who actually has experience of rape would read it and think "That's bullsh*t, that's not how things are at all, this person has no idea what they are talking about."
But another danger might be someone who, like me, has no experience of rape, might read my awful rape scene and think "Yes, that fits with my idea of what a rape is." And i'd just be propogating this quite narrow idea of what constitutes a rape. I'd be propogating a myth. And it might be absolute garbage and implausible and insensitive, but worse, when you consider how fiction shapes our perceptions of other people (especially the opposite sex), someone might actually read it and say "yes this is what rape is" when it really, really isn't.

Very good post!

Yes, I think the fact that it is harder to "quantify" (as you put it) than murder may have a lot to do with it. The risk of making a twisted portrayal of what rape is, is much higher than it is for murder, and there are stereotypes which will fail to match reality, often making the meaning of "rape" narrower than it ought to be.

And welcome to the forum, by the way!

 

[Beef]

And welcome to the forum, by the way!

Cheers! You all seem lovely.

 

[j d worthington]

On getting it right... there are plenty of accounts by people who have been through the experience. Do some research, find common factors, and try to synthesize the things which are genuine. But I warn you, such accounts tend to be either hellish to read, or the person has spoken with such lack of affect (as a defense mechanism) that this aspect itself can seem more horrible than the act itself.... In any event, rape should be used with care, as it is such an emotional landmine....

 

[Anne Lyle]

As for the part of it being "horribly disrespectful" to real victims of such violence, I can see that angle of it, and I want to agree, but there is a catch that makes me not so sure I can. The problem is that you could apply analogous reasoning to pretty much any severely morally wrong act in fiction.

Sorry - I didn't mean that writing about rape was disrespectful. I was talking about the trope specifically - that reducing rape to a go-to solution for female "character building" diminishes the very real trauma suffered by rape victims.

 

[Hex]

Is it the same as the almost automatic way to make a man a bad-ass -- by having his wife/ children/ bethrothed/ parents killed off?

And it's an interesting point about torture and other violence. Perhaps our issue with rape is, as Beef suggests, that it still happens in the UK/ US and we're a bit rubbish at dealing with it. Maybe in cultures where torture is still a very real danger, that's more of an issue?

I don't have a problem with rape in stories (except the obvious problem that I dislike reading about it). I'm not suggesting we should censor it, or that there should be a one-size-fits-all result. Not everyone will be utterly traumatised, but like everything, I suppose, the character's response needs to make sense.

And another question -- is the prevalence/ expectation (!) of rape in urban fantasy (although I admit I haven't enountered it very much) a way of balancing strong female characters? Of making their strength more acceptable? Are we really still that misogynistic?

 

[Mouse]

Tyler, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about!

I've been following this thread for a bit and the interesting question that keeps popping up in my mind is: 'Why is rape such an issue and yet something like murder isn't, at least not to the same extent?'

Um, because the victims of murder are dead?? So we tend not to write from their POVs and therefore can't **** it up. (Though, I guess we can write from their POVS if we're writing ghost characters. And I'm thinking of Annie from Being Human and how she dealt with her boyfriend when she realised he'd killed her).

Anyway...

The thing that irritates me is when it's obviously written as some sort of sick sexual fantasy, when the victim becomes 'badass' (ridiculously so), when the victim literally doesn't give a toss (not 'apparently'), when it's written that the victim enjoyed it and when it's written just because of the whole 'bring him/her down a peg or two' and the whole 'she's a woman therefore she must get raped.'

(Note, I've used 'victim' even though it's a horrible word because I'm referring to men and women).

As to the Urban Fantasy thing... What UF are we talking about here? Because I read it and I can't say as I've come across any rape yet. Are we talking the crappy vampire stuff or what?

 

[Darth Angelus]

Sorry - I didn't mean that writing about rape was disrespectful. I was talking about the trope specifically - that reducing rape to a go-to solution for female "character building" diminishes the very real trauma suffered by rape victims.

Yeah, I got that, and I guess you have a point.

I think that happens to other types of crimes, too, though. I do not know if you have watched Star Wars Episode IV, but Princess Leia gets to watch as the Empire blast her home planet Alderaan into asteriods (civilian inhabitants and all). It was pretty much used similarly, as a go-to solution to show the Empire was wicked. It is then never mentioned again. The question is whether that is disrespectful to real victims of genocide?

I guess it could be, in a way, when any type of crime resulting in severe trauma to the victim is used lightly, and without the appropriate emotional impact. However, it could just be poor writing, and lack of skill to write these things properly, I think.

 

[Darth Angelus]

Tyler, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about!

Agreed, he does not.

The thing that irritates me is when it's obviously written as some sort of sick sexual fantasy, when the victim becomes 'badass' (ridiculously so), when the victim literally doesn't give a toss (not 'apparently'), when it's written that the victim enjoyed it and when it's written just because of the whole 'bring him/her down a peg or two' and the whole 'she's a woman therefore she must get raped.'

Yes, all of these are very offensive stereotypes, and horrible writing that is severy twisting reality.

Tyler -- I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're joking. I accept that it's comforting to blame the victim (because then the terrible thing isn't going to happen to us since we're not weak men/ women in short skirts). But actually, awful things happen to all sorts of people -- strong people, weak people, good people and bad people. We should blame the perpetrators, and the society that makes it possible for someone 'normal' to be a rapist.

Indeed. My guess is that Tyler has an incredible just-world bias. It is the only way I can understand it.

 

[prizzley]

Anyway, as for her becoming a stronger person than she would otherwise have been, I am sorry, but I don't think that would quite work, even though it depends on what you mean by that. If anything, I would guess that quite the opposite would happen, really. It is more likely to lead to insecurity and distrustfulness, possibly with reduced faith in mankind, I believe.

The reader has to judge whether the victim's reaction is believable based on her/his character and the circumstances of his/her life, both leading up to the rape and after.

I know a childhood rape victim, who is one of the sanest, nicest and happiest women. She has never discussed her experience with me, and I'd never ask her, but she must have found a way of overcoming the trauma, rather than let the rape and the rapist rule her life. For me she is a shining example, as is hope, that we don't have to have to accept the line that "rape is the worse thing that can happen". Unfortunately in the real world, that often is the case.

Some excellent posts on this, better expressed than mine.

 

[HoopyFrood]

This seems appropriately timed, so I'll add it here. Greg Rucka, who writes comic books (and is known for his awesome female characters) was asked recently a similar question. The full answer can be found here: http://ruckawriter.tumblr.com/post/41180748602/ive-been-asked-to-make-my-answer-rebloggable

But here's the main gist:

Fiction - regardless of its form, and video game narrative, I think we all agree, is fiction - at its best, reflects truths about reality. Fiction educates, even if it does so obliquely, or behind the cover of story. Fiction, ideally, asks questions that provoke thought and attempts to answer those questions posed.

Rape is a reality. Ignoring it empowers it. Diminishing it empowers it. Fetishizing it empowers it. Ignorance of it empowers it, and we just finished an election season here in the U.S. where that ignorance was on spectacular, non-ironic, display.

So, as if all the above wasn’t clear, I am very much speaking from my own opinion. Do I think rape has a “place” in fiction? Absolutely, yes. It’s a very specific place, I feel. It’s a place that must illuminate it as the crime against body and soul that it is. It’s a place where its weight and horror must be acknowledged, never diminished. It’s a place where it must be recognized as the evil it is.

Yes, certainly, there are characters where being a rape survivor is a crucial element of who they are. For some, it is even their core motivation. In the right hands, written with the proper thought and care and - in my opinion, and most crucially - honesty, yes, there is a place.

But as a short-hand for “justifying” why a character - specifically a female character - is who she is, or does what she does? I hate it. I’m inherently very suspicious of it, to the point of active hostility. I am leery of the prurient interest, and in the case of Lara specifically, I cannot escape feeling that is hard at work here. I read a quote where one of the developers, I believe, claimed that putting Lara in this position, under this threat, would make the player “want to protect her.” I found that both condescending and remarkably ignorant. Having not played the game, I can’t speak with any authority on it, but I find it hard to believe that was their motive to begin with.

I am very, very tired of rape being used as an explanation for why a woman is “strong.” As if an explanation is required. I find that insulting as hell, frankly. And I’m a guy.

Long answer is long. Getting longer.

Characters - good characters - are never any one thing. A rape survivor should never be defined by the crime committed against him or her. But the nature of the crime is so vile, in my opinion, that incorporating it into any character demands it be given the full weight and consideration it deserves. Anything less, as I said at the start, diminishes the crime. That’s irresponsible writing, at the very least, and irresponsible writing is, to me, bad writing.

 

[Darth Angelus]

I know a childhood rape victim, who is one of the sanest, nicest and happiest women. She has never discussed her experience with me, and I'd never ask her, but she must have found a way of overcoming the trauma, rather than let the rape and the rapist rule her life. For me she is a shining example, as is hope, that we don't have to have to accept the line that "rape is the worse thing that can happen". Unfortunately in the real world, that often is the case.

Some excellent posts on this, better expressed than mine.

Fair enough. In a very long-term perspective, it will of course be possible to not let it rule one's life.
However, if a rape victim is happy, I would rather tend to think it is despite the rape, not because of the rape.

 

[The Judge]

This is an emotional subject, folks, but let's remember this is the Chrons. We argue the point not the person, and no matter what the provocation we try to accord other members some respect.

Hoopy -- a very interesting and thoughtful post from this chap. More power to his pen if he writes powerful female characters himself, too.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Apologies, we've managed a long and considered discussion about a difficult and sensitive subject, and I don't want a single poster to be able to disrupt that. I've therefore removed the offending post and the couple of posts that quoted it.