Let's talk about sex...

[Jo Zebedee]

Very normal.

 

[Mouse]

How unlike you!

I do not know where this reputation came from.

 

[Warren_Paul]

As has already been said, sex happens, and it doesn't matter what the setting or genre is, it's still going to happen. I went with reading on without blinking.

I've got my own explicit sex scene near the beginning of my book that just comes out of the blue. It's only a dream memory though, but the romantic connection the character has to the man in the dream -- who she doesn't know at the time of the dream -- is completely relevant to the story. But after this thread I wonder if it might come across as gratuitous. I guess I won't know for sure until I read beta readers comments.

 

[Boneman]

We have about 3500 build up to the scene, btw, which might well extend on further drafts.

Now that's what I call foreplay...!


I opened the Chrons and this thread leapt out at me. It wouldn't bother me in the slightest except.... I tend to read the first chapter or so in Waterstones to see if I like a book enough to buy it. And if it's done in the best pahssible taste the assistants won't look askance at me. Good old Kenny Everett.

 

[Parson]

This thread put me in mind of a SF book that had the opening sentence read: "In two years the p**** will be obsolete."

Unfortunately the rest of the book was immanently forgettable.

 

[Ursa major]

It's hard to say (no, Mouse, No!) without reading the scenes (and the text between them) - how they're written, whether their application to the plot was obvious, whether they build the reader's interest in the characters so that the scenes are not simply mechanical - but I think if there were two too close together, however well written, I'd begin to wonder what the rest of the book was going to be like, i.e. would it be a bonkathon? Unless you're going for that market, which you appear not to be, you might want to tread carefully.

Do the two scenes really have to be so close - could one, say, be in a flashback further on in the book? - and is the significance of each dependent on their proximity?


(Successfully managed to avoid asking whether the scenes stand up to scrutiny. )

 

[HoopyFrood]

I didn't blink an eye (all right, I enjoyed) the massive film stars from Golden age cinema ghost orgy that goes on for a while in Coldheart Canyon because it was just the direction the book was going in (and showing how much the main character had become caught up in it all). It was consenting and free; there were many other more unpleasant bits in other parts of the novel.

Plus it's Clive Barker, he's generally quite sensual in his novels, in all sense of the word. It's kind of what you come to expect, part and parcel of opting to choose one of his books (I mean, it's not always quite as explicit... )

So yeah, as people say, it's what the novel calls for. I don't even have to be greatly attached to characters, just that it adds to the story. Like in comics, there's usually a part where the superhero showers off after crime fighting. Some artists add/draw these just to titillate, which annoys me. Others draw to add to the story (and show a bit of skin) which I don't mind.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Without giving too much away, the first scene leads to a direct character response which leads to the second scene. (Which is up in the writing group, actually, albeit as a flashback there) so,i don't think it gives the impression they're going to be at it every five minutes -- there is no more in the rest of the book, as it happens.

I think I will be trusting to the good taste of my betas who will, I am guessing, be quick to tell me if it is done cackhandedly. But, judging by these responses it would not be an automatic no no for most genre readers which was my big worry.

 

[Mouse]

It's hard to say (no, Mouse, No!)

You lot are just picking on me now! (I did almost choke on my doughnut when I read that though).

--

So my collab with amw actually starts with a post-coital scene.

 

[allmywires]

So my collab with amw actually starts with a post-coital scene.

And it's your bit as well!

 

[Mouse]

And it's your bit as well!

Damnit!

 

[alchemist]

I posted something non-family friendly and chickened out! Wuss.

Anyway, I seem to remember many books putting the sex in early (a sort of premature introjection). I always thought it was a clever ruse to keep me interested. But I trust you, springs! I know it will be vital to the plot.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

I answered the question as though we were discussing a writer whose work I didn't know (although, for that matter, springs, I've only read one of your books -- still I trust you to have a good reason). For a writer whose work I didn't know, I'd wonder if the sex scenes where going to be representative of the whole book, because, yes, sex is a part of life, but if I wanted to read erotica I wouldn't have picked up a book that looked like it was going to be about something else.

If there were two sword fights at the beginning of a book, I'd wonder if the whole book was about the clash of steel and mighty men of prowess upon the field of battle (or, if the swords were lighter, agile men who fence with catlike grace and swing from chandeliers when necessary). Or if there were two scenes that took place in torture chambers I'd expect to be smelling burning irons throughout the book.

Or if there were two scenes of kittens (I draw the line at kittens!) doing anything at all, I'd chuck the book.

One thing that puts me off when I am watching the very first episode of a TV show, and that's if the main characters is in bed having great sex when the very first scene begins. Why? Because my thinking (possibly unfair) goes like this: I am supposed to admire this character because they have incredible sex. I am supposed to want to be like this character because they have incredible sex. This is an incredibly lazy way of trying to gain my interest. I don't want to watch a series written and produced by lazy people.

 

[TheDustyZebra]

I wouldn't blink -- I'm a Heinleiner from way back. One of my favorite books is To Sail Beyond the Sunset, which begins with Maureen in bed with a dead man and not a stitch of clothing in the entire hotel room. She doesn't know who he was or if she slept with him or not. How do you pass that up as an opening?

Or if there were two scenes of kittens (I draw the line at kittens!) doing anything at all, I'd chuck the book.

Whew, good thing my mystery only has one kitten scene at the start. And that was so she could "save the cat".

 

[Venusian Broon]

Sex is handled pretty poorly in SF/F (if at all - I think the closest Arthur C. Clarke got to it was a comment from one of his characters that zero gravity does peculiar things to womans breasts.)

So I would be genuinely intrigued if the sex turned out to be a big part of plot/character development. (Perhaps I'm not reading the right books?)

Also it would be good to see something other than 'fantasy' sex, which is generally gratuitious. Surely if Conan has been putting the beers back in a big drinking night, his mighty sword might also be a bit soft steel? Or, a sort of man of steel, knob of butter type of night.

 

[Alex The G and T]

If I can't smell it, and I can't taste it; I don't find sex particularly interesting.

I'm not squeamish, however.

I agree with the consensus. If it reads like it belongs to the story, and it's not so graphic that I'd be embarrassed to have my wife catch me reading it... No prob.

 

[AnyaKimlin]

The book I am working on right now starts with a man in a cleaning cupboard, fastening up his belt. The other is tucking in his shirt. I've ummed and ahhed about the beginning but have decided to keep it. It's great way to muddy my heroes in the first few lines.

Like others have said, Springs, if you run with it you will have a good reason.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Oh, VB, i am laughing at that.

I think it's fair to say relationships are central to this, not sex per se, and most of the intro is about relationships and then... Where they might go. If i was to say that there is a theme of fallen eden, that might put it a little more into context and explain why the story starts there.

Oh, and yes, this is an open question, without reference to what anyone here knows of my stuff (but it is very reassuring to see the belief that i might not make a hash of it, ty) I will -- judging by current status -- be an unknown author submitting this, so I need to know if this approach threatens to put agents and what not off in the magic first pages. Although i suspect the query will mention where the sex theme fits in.

Oh, and i don't think they read as erotica, much more hands off than that.

 

[AMB]

I could go either way on this one (behave). Sometimes all the reasons in the world can't convince me it was necessary, other times I just read it and don't think about it, it fits so well. I suppose it is whether or not it takes me out of the plot through not belonging or poor writing.

Think about why you feel it might be necessary. Write it, take it out and see if it works without. Add it back and compare.

 

[TheTomG]

Not answered the poll, as there are too many variables involved. However, I'm not adverse to sex in books and other media, so it's not the sex as such that would deter me from reading on - however, the quality of the writing would come into question there, plus the reason for the scene. Does it lead me to think this is just going to be sex, trivial plot, more sex, trivial space battle, more sex - or does it lead me to think this is a well-written book that is not going to shy away from any aspect of the human condition?

Don't really read sci fi for titillation (I can read other things for that - and isn't "titillation" such a great word btw?) so for me to want to continue reading on, it's going to have to lead me to think the author has more in mind.

Iain Banks, for example, doesn't shy away from sex, and it may not be "central" to the plot, but it's there because, in real life with real people, it's there. Even if you are in an SF or Fantasy setting, we still want people (and aliens) we can relate to, and to be honest, sex is one of the greatest motivators for us as individuals. Unlike the need to own a nicer sofa, the need for sex is programmed in, hardwired in a way that so many of our "moires of society" are not.

Hope this helps!