Let's form a crackpot theory together

[Tywin]

And to add to that, what are the chances that Yoren could keep JH imprisoned? Even Arya "saving" him and Biter/Rorge from the fire suggests to me that he MAY have had other options and wanted to have Arya have him in her debt. What I'm saying is that JH in the black cells, then being sent to the NW was contrived.

Tywin raises a really interesting question though. If FM are sent to kill someone, and JH fulfilled his mission, whom did he kill? I'd love to think it was Robert, but Cersei is pretty much on the hook for that given the circumstances.

Tywin, can you make a case for Robert, or anyone else?

I think the case for him killing Robert is the circumstances of it happening. Adding some extra "pow!" to the wine seems to fit the pattern of all the other FM killings that we've seen. Cersei is the obvious culprit, but obvious isn't GRRM's way. Also the Lannisters (Cersei included) were riding high and succeeding. Killing Robert was not a smart move for Cersei, even with the threat of Eddard telling Robert about her.

As for FM not being able to be jailed, only needing to be let out of chains in a fire for the sake of striking up a conversation with Arya, etc, etc... We build these guys up too much. At the rate their prowess is growing on our forum they should just kill people with their laser-beam eyes.

 

[Syphon of Oor-Tael]

They can't? I'm a Faceless Man and I can kill with MY laser-beam eyes. The people you see in the show are amateurs I tell you!

 

[Keebs411]

I think the case for him killing Robert is the circumstances of it happening. Adding some extra "pow!" to the wine seems to fit the pattern of all the other FM killings that we've seen. Cersei is the obvious culprit, but obvious isn't GRRM's way. Also the Lannisters (Cersei included) were riding high and succeeding. Killing Robert was not a smart move for Cersei, even with the threat of Eddard telling Robert about her.

As its been pointed out before Cersi beleives shes always in control and one of the main players i " the game" even though shes really just another pawn. Shes blind to the fact that she is also predictable. the true puppeteers like to let her continue to think this way. Why not ler her and everyone else who knew about the plot beleive that getting rid of Robert was all her own doing?

 

[The Imp]

ywin. You sold me on FM involvement in Robert's murder. As for the FM, I'm not suggesting super-human power, only that it's beyond belief that one of them could possibly be contained in one of the black cells, or that something as simple as picking a lock while chained to the wagon would be beyond their ability. The ability of the FM to kill anyone, any where, any time is suggestive of operatives that would laugh at the jailers under the Red keep, oafs such as Yoren, and the simplistic chains he would have employed.

 

[Tywin]

ywin. You sold me on FM involvement in Robert's murder. As for the FM, I'm not suggesting super-human power, only that it's beyond belief that one of them could possibly be contained in one of the black cells, or that something as simple as picking a lock while chained to the wagon would be beyond their ability. The ability of the FM to kill anyone, any where, any time is suggestive of operatives that would laugh at the jailers under the Red keep, oafs such as Yoren, and the simplistic chains he would have employed.

Let me point out that "simplistic chains" are normally the kind that can't be picked. If you put shackles around a wrist and then fasten them witha loop of iron hammered shut... no picking.

 

[Syphon of Oor-Tael]

Agreed. If they are shackled as Tywin suggests, there's no way that you can move let alone pick the lock. Remember, Ned was shackled too and he never moved. There is no doubt in my mind that someone in the Black Cells would be shackled day and night. We're talking fantasy medieval times, not modern pansy times where prisoners get ridiculous things like porn and playstations.

 

[Tywin]

We're talking fantasy medieval times, not modern pansy times where prisoners get ridiculous things like porn and playstations.

Awesome.

The way that they are shackled is conjecture, but what isn't is that "The Red God" (I think that's what he said) was owed three lives for the ones that Arya saved. Now that could all be just more lies and misdirection, I suppose, but I think it's more likely that he was speaking the truth. I bring this up because if he could have strolled out on his own, then Arya wouldn't have taken anything from the Red God really, and no debt would have been owed.

 

[Syphon of Oor-Tael]

Yeah. I doubt that a FM would give out freebies like that.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

ywin. You sold me on FM involvement in Robert's murder. As for the FM, I'm not suggesting super-human power, only that it's beyond belief that one of them could possibly be contained in one of the black cells, or that something as simple as picking a lock while chained to the wagon would be beyond their ability. The ability of the FM to kill anyone, any where, any time is suggestive of operatives that would laugh at the jailers under the Red keep, oafs such as Yoren, and the simplistic chains he would have employed.

I think Jaqen did want to be in those cells and wanted to go north with yoren, because I don't believe that Jaqen is the faceless man at the citadel, I think Jaqen is the faceless man wondering the north acting the part of a Bravos banker, (I havent read the evidence to support the theory that Jaqen is in the citadel, so if someone can point me in that direction...) We know Jaqen is a faceless man and we know he was heading North. Maybe he was hired to take out ALL the baratheons. if he killed Robert already, now he is making his way to kill Stannis. Who's to say?

I like the idea of the Woman with Victarion being a FM. alternatively, Euron himself could be a faceless man. Maybe during his trips he picked up a young sailor who reaved with him for a time and, when he knew the man well enough, killed him and took his place. That would match the prophecy of the faceless man with the crow on his shoulder killing Balon. The faceless man wasn't hired by the crow, but was wearing the crow.

Note about the chronology of the dragon eggs, they were given to Dany before Ned got to Kings Landing, possibly even before he left winterfell. It is fairly early on in Ned and Robert's trip to KL when they hear about the wedding between Dany and Drogo, and news travels pretty slowly in this world (even crows need to sleep)

 

[The Imp]

I think Jaqen did want to be in those cells and wanted to go north with yoren, because I don't believe that Jaqen is the faceless man at the citadel, I think Jaqen is the faceless man wondering the north acting the part of a Bravos banker, (I havent read the evidence to support the theory that Jaqen is in the citadel, so if someone can point me in that direction...) We know Jaqen is a faceless man and we know he was heading North. Maybe he was hired to take out ALL the baratheons. if he killed Robert already, now he is making his way to kill Stannis. Who's to say?

I like the idea of the Woman with Victarion being a FM. alternatively, Euron himself could be a faceless man. Maybe during his trips he picked up a young sailor who reaved with him for a time and, when he knew the man well enough, killed him and took his place. That would match the prophecy of the faceless man with the crow on his shoulder killing Balon. The faceless man wasn't hired by the crow, but was wearing the crow.

Note about the chronology of the dragon eggs, they were given to Dany before Ned got to Kings Landing, possibly even before he left winterfell. It is fairly early on in Ned and Robert's trip to KL when they hear about the wedding between Dany and Drogo, and news travels pretty slowly in this world (even crows need to sleep)

Jaqen becoming un-Jaqen in aCoK

His cheeks grew fuller, his eyes closer; his nose hooked, a scar appeared on his right cheek where no scar had been before. And when he shook his head, his long straight hair, half red and half white, dissolved away
to reveal a cap of tight black curls.


The man who killed pate and became him in aFFC

He was just a man, and his face was just a face. A young man's face, ordinary, with full cheeks and the shadow of a beard. A scar showed faintly on his right cheek. He had a hooked nose, and a mat of dense black hair that curled tightly around his ears.

Looks to me as if GRRM is definitely describing the same guy, unless perhaps 2 FM could use the same ""mask". Until proven otherwise though, i think the man at the Citadel is JH

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

Jaqen becoming un-Jaqen in aCoK

His cheeks grew fuller, his eyes closer; his nose hooked, a scar appeared on his right cheek where no scar had been before. And when he shook his head, his long straight hair, half red and half white, dissolved away
to reveal a cap of tight black curls.


The man who killed pate and became him in aFFC

He was just a man, and his face was just a face. A young man's face, ordinary, with full cheeks and the shadow of a beard. A scar showed faintly on his right cheek. He had a hooked nose, and a mat of dense black hair that curled tightly around his ears.

Looks to me as if GRRM is definitely describing the same guy, unless perhaps 2 FM could use the same ""mask". Until proven otherwise though, i think the man at the Citadel is JH

Alright, well that shut me up. I cannot deny that they certainly sound like the same man, or at least, the same description. I still think it is wierd that Jaqen was heading North with the nights watch and ended up in Oldtown in the south, but I guess enough time had passed for him to go do a job in the north (Balon?) and swing back south for his next job.

I still hold that the Bravos Banker is a Faceless man but I don't think i'm alone in this.

 

[The Imp]

Alright, well that shut me up. I cannot deny that they certainly sound like the same man, or at least, the same description. I still think it is wierd that Jaqen was heading North with the nights watch and ended up in Oldtown in the south, but I guess enough time had passed for him to go do a job in the north (Balon?) and swing back south for his next job.

I still hold that the Bravos Banker is a Faceless man but I don't think i'm alone in this.

Yes, Tycho Nestoris is not to be trusted

 

[Syphon of Oor-Tael]

Tycho certainly has ulterior motives, that much is true.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

Can't remember where I read this, but someone put forth the idea that moon Boy (Joff's Fool, and Robert's before that) might be a faceless man. I was reading one of sansa's chapters in aCoK while she is talking to Dontos after he is made a fool. He says he hears things as a fool that he never heard as a knight. That lords and ladies speak to eachother as though he weren't even there. Then he says that Maybe Moon Boy belongs to Varys, (which he certainly does). If varys lead or is associated with the faceless men, having Moon Boy as a faceless man would be perfect. It is quite possible that Moon Boy even murdered Joffrey. Littlefinger is exactly the kind of person who would claim credit for it to Sansa to earn her trust and respect (and fear). The same way Cersei never clears up that she wasn't the one who murdered Jon Arryn. She lets people believe it because better that people should think her ruthless than stupid.

 

[doglim]

Not sure if he's been mentioned yet, but it seems to be you're all missing the most obvious case for a FM.

HODOR

You know it makes sense. He's been in on it for years, in fact, thinking about it, Old Nan must have been a FM as well. My god people! The FM are everywhere!

 

[Tywin]

Not sure if he's been mentioned yet, but it seems to be you're all missing the most obvious case for a FM.

HODOR

You know it makes sense. He's been in on it for years, in fact, thinking about it, Old Nan must have been a FM as well. My god people! The FM are everywhere!

Where are Boaz and the Imp?

They must read this breakthrough!

 

[doglim]

Where are Boaz and the Imp?

They must read this breakthrough!

I'm just gonna say it. After minutes of research (which involved no rational thought at all), I have determined that not only is Hodor a FM, but is in fact the leader of the FM.

Old Nan hasn't died as is suspected, but is in fact now hiding out with Ramsey as one of his lackeys, just biding her time before she kills him.

 

[Tywin]

The real question is: who is Hodor's target? Who is he meant to give the gift to?

Bloodraven?

The Old Gods?

The Children of the Forest?

 

[doglim]

A good question. Luckily for you I have the answer.

FM Hodor has been sent by R'hllor (yes, the TV show got it correct and R'hllor and House of Black and White are one and the same) to give the gift to The Great Other. Not just others, but The Great Other himself. Hodor will transform into a god and the final book will be an epic battle between deities.

You read it here first. Don't say I didn't warn you.

 

[TK-421]

Really???