Grim or dark too often treated as realistic...

Definitely a lot of good points discussed here.

I think there's something to the idea that the current 'grimdark' proliferation is a response to the more traditional view of "heroes that win against the odds". Just like punk was a response to the years of traditional music, as was rock before that.
In short, as someone else said, it kind of goes in cycles, with the new countering the prevailing views of the old.

Also, (again as I. Brian said :)) fantasy in general has become more accepted over the last 20-30 years. Once something becomes more accepted, then it's possible to delve into the deeper and more meaningful facets of it, rather than just present the easier-to-understand angle of heroes vs. villains, because the 'simple' view of things has been done to death already.
 
Basically, it is not that grim or dark fiction is written that bothers me, especially when its purpose seems to truly be about portraying all aspects of a armed conflict. I suppose it is when the dark stuff is done for its own sake that I am bothered by it, especially since a certain subgroup of the fanbase of speculative fiction seems to think it is almost beyond criticism. It is also that these people seem to mix up their preferred drama structure of a story with realism.

I'm right there with you--in fact, this is something I've written about extensively.

I see a major difference between "grit with implications explored" and "grit for grit's sake."
 
I would also suggest that fantasy - in general - has become far more mainstream over the past 20 years or so.

Which has resulted in far more people coming to the fantasy genre through film, TV, and comics - and demanding more from it.

Hence why over the same period we've seen a proliferation of the genre.

I'd be curious to see if sales are actually rising, though. This chart shows them falling, though it's just for print books (and we know that has as much to do with the shift to ebooks as anything else).
 
I'd be curious to see if sales are actually rising, though. This chart shows them falling, though it's just for print books (and we know that has as much to do with the shift to ebooks as anything else).

All it really shows is that people are buying fewer printed books - in general:
Big Names Dominated Bestsellers in 2012

I'd love to see some stats with eBooks by genre, if Amazon released it.
 
especially since a certain subgroup of the fanbase of speculative fiction seems to think it is almost beyond criticism. It is also that these people seem to mix up their preferred drama structure of a story with realism.

This is something that bothers me, too. If something is dark enough, there is that (very vocal) subgroup who refuse to look at it as objectively as they would anything less grim and violent, and who can get very angry if anyone else dares to criticize it. And their defense of anything that someone might criticize too often comes down to "that's the way things were back then" -- very often (but not always) from people who have only the vaguest and most limited idea of how things really were.

And besides that, I believe those most vocal readers and writers gravitate toward that era because it offers a chance to depict a level of violence not present in other times and places. Writers have a story that they want to tell (for whatever reason), and that story is filled with rape and violence, and they choose or invent an era that allows that plot to unfold. It's not an accident. And do readers who use the argument of realism say to themselves, "I'm going to read a book set in a faux medieval world because I rather like that era ... oh, darn, that means I am going to have to read about a lot of violence. Well, I guess I will just have to put up with it." I think not.

Even if that is "how it was back then" (and ignoring everything else about that period that might be interesting to read about and did not involve war and violence) why must so much fantasy be written about that particular era, when there is a whole world and all of history to read and write about?
 
That's a valid point, Teresa. I seem to be almost the only one who likes Best Served Cold less than Joe Abercrombie's other stuff, and a large part of that was the relentlessly negative, depressing tone.

Sean McGlynn's By Sword and Fire has a very interesting breakdown of just why brutality was so commonplace and severe in the medieval world, and a fascinating explanation of why merciful actions could also take place. Torture, rape and pillage all happened for a reason, but so did kindness and clemency.
 
Basically, it is not that grim or dark fiction is written that bothers me, especially when its purpose seems to truly be about portraying all aspects of a armed conflict. I suppose it is when the dark stuff is done for its own sake that I am bothered by it,
I think most people would agree with that as a general statement, the problem is that art is subjective and often one person's justified darkness or artistically valid grimness tends to be another persons "nasty-for-it's-own-sake" moment. This tends to come up when people pinpoint specific moments that they feel crossed this line. For example:
That's a valid point, Teresa. I seem to be almost the only one who likes Best Served Cold less than Joe Abercrombie's other stuff, and a large part of that was the relentlessly negative, depressing tone.
That's a totally valid reaction to the book. I had the opposite reaction. For me, the tone of BSC was spot on. It was a story about the bitter cycle of violent revenge, and the way that events were portrayed felt very emotionally honest to me. I also found moment of genuine light in that tale, made more powerful for the dark background.

Conversely, I felt the end of Ian M Banks Use Of Weapons (yes, THAT bit) had no artistic justification and was a cheap piece of shock theatrics. I know there are A LOT of people who disagree with me on that one. But that's art for you.
 
Coolhand, that does seem to be the reaction of most people. I still liked it, but I preferred his trilogy and other stand-alones.
 
Or maybe some of the 'grim-dark' stories are just really good tales told with skill. I have read plenty of non-fiction mediaeval books dealing with history from the 5th century onwards to have a good understanding of life in those times. There is no question of mistaking fantasy fiction for historic realism.

Back to good stories. What I consider a well crafted, engrossing book will differ from other's. If I want to read a book about the suffering of the poor and innocent through times of war I will open up my copy of Primo Levi's If This Is A Man. But I have no interest in reading about Jack the Miller's travails in an invented world. I want high intrigue, grand conflict, betrayal's, tragedy, good guys, not so good guys, baddies, and nastier baddies. And I want to be immersed in that world, not lectured to by the author about right and wrong, gender quotas etc. I can get that in my nonfiction reading. At the moment so called 'grim-dark' is the order of the day. That may change.

If people dislike 'grim-dark' fine. It is not the end of the world. There is a massive amount literature in different genres to be read and enjoyed.
 
Svalbard, I don't dislike grimdark. It's not my writing style, but as a reader it's probably my favourite part of the fantasy genre.
 
I think that's a really interesting and important point, svalbard.

I've read Holocaust survivor literature (like Primo Levi -- though his work always seems to have moments of light that stand against the awfulness of what's happening) and some history, including archival documents from times that were pretty grim. I don't think I flinch (too much) from reality.

However, I don't enjoy dark sff (I don't like Thomas Hardy either). I like some hope in my fiction. If I want grim and authentic, I can always go back to reading stuff that happened to real people and that feels more useful -- as if I'm witnessing -- though I expect it's not really.

It is -- like other people have said -- a particular way of viewing human experience. It doesn't appeal to me, but I do understand that my reading preferences (handsome, doomed fae knights, oodles of romance and so on) are not everyone's.

--

Mildly tangentially, I think it's hard to find any really good stories with mothers as mcs, unless the mother has left her children with someone else while she goes off adventuring, and that feels a bit like cheating. The only one I can think of where the mc is lugging a small child around is A Sudden Wild Magic. I feel very under-represented.
 
Svalbard, I don't dislike grimdark. It's not my writing style, but as a reader it's probably my favourite part of the fantasy genre.

That is quite interesting and I wonder would it be common for genre writers in general. I tend to dislike crime fiction in general( there are exceptions), but my only published work is a short story about a serial killer. Go figure?

Hex,

If This Is A Man is one of the most powerful books I have ever read.

Back to the discussion at hand. I wanted to add to my previous post and say categorically that grim-dark fantasy should not be treated as a realistic view of mediaeval life, although the genre does contain authentic elements, but these are limited in the same manner that HF is.
 
Hi,

I think it's important to realise that fantasy is not realistic in general. (And I don't just mean by definition!) Look say you've got a fantasy war on - and bad things happen in wars - no question. But most of the time nothing much happens in wars - especially pre twentieth century ones. People sit around in their camps, trenches, and do little. Or they march for days and weeks. Those who die, mostly died of injuries and disease. Up until WWI and II this was the reality of war. But absolutely no one writes it.

Grimdark is a reaction to the unrealistic optimism of the mighty heroes journey and the eventual victory trope that pervaded fantasy at least through to the seventies. But it is in itself an unrealistic trope. All your friends will die in unrealistic and unecessarily terrible ways. There will be suffering and death beyond belief. And the hero may well lose. But in the end that's just as fantastic in a bad way as the first was.

What is needed is balance. Bad things happen. Good things happen. And as mentioned many times, when either happens it happens for a reasonable / believable reason.

Cheers, Greg.
 
But I have no interest in reading about Jack the Miller's travails in an invented world. I want high intrigue, grand conflict, betrayal's, tragedy, good guys, not so good guys, baddies, and nastier baddies.

There were a lot of people whose lives were more interesting that Jack the Miller or Dickon the Chandler, and yet less violent than the heroes (or anti-heroes) so popular today. And high intrigue and betrayal in high places did not necessarily end with someone in the torture chamber or everyone at war. There were often other things at stake, and certainly in a fantasy world there could be any number of perils. Actually, I think it could make for compelling reading if the main character in a book is such a master of intrigue that he tricks everyone into doing what he wants, and (despite many set-backs and narrow escapes never gets caught).


However, does anybody else feel, as I do, that we have had basically this same conversation a dozen times before? Are we covering any new ground? I don't feel that I am. Has anybody, in the course of these lengthy discussions changed anybody else's mind? I haven't seen it.

So even though this thread has been civil throughout (surprisingly so, considering how polarizing this topic sometimes gets), I am going to step away, and leave it to those who still find the topic of absorbing interest.
 
Darth Angelus - I'm no survivalist either; I've never even been camping. Not since I was about 6, anyway. But using a lens (and yes, they were convex) is just so fracking obvious!

I'm inclined to agree with you about the emphasis on the social side, too. Loads of time spent rabbiting on about group dynamics, and no time at all spent on the fact that they got hammocks of some sort built.
Yeah, I can see what you mean about how using that convex lens would be obvious. Of course, there are occasions when obvious things slip your mind (it happens to me, occasionally, anyway). Of course, if it was a whole group, chances are the idea would pop up in at least one mind, and that is all that would be required.
I would not put too much into it. TV is often staged, sometimes to a very great extent, I believe. In one Swedish survival TV programme, the participants were very restricted in where they could move. Information leaked that a very small piece of land had been leased for making the programme, something like 200 by 200 yards, probably even smaller. There are things in these programmes which are not mentioned onscreen.
I would not rule out that there may have been a rule against using the glasses for any other purpose than sight. I doubt they could forbid people from bringing their glasses entirely, because that would probably violate some rule against discrimination. But they could rule against using it for survival tasks, because it is an outside item brought in.
I realize I am speculating wildly, now, but it is all I can come up with. However, given the nature of these programs, I would not put much weight into it.

In my original post, I was referring to extremely skilled people often failing at tasks or struggling in contests within their skill area against opponents way below their level (hence the Oxford professor in English vs. non-native English speaker analogy). Despite being designed to be "relateable" to a fairly average audience, many heroes in speculative fiction are established as among the best in their world, and this does create some dissonance (since being one of the best in the world is quite a far cry from average), as many readers/viewers want to see the heroes challenged, but if portrayed consistently with their established skill level, they would only struggle with extremely difficult tasks or opponents.


I'm right there with you--in fact, this is something I've written about extensively.

I see a major difference between "grit with implications explored" and "grit for grit's sake."
I read an article of yours a couple of weeks ago (and agreed with most of it), but after skimming over your link, I am fairly sure it was not that one. I shall have to give it a look soon.


This is something that bothers me, too. If something is dark enough, there is that (very vocal) subgroup who refuse to look at it as objectively as they would anything less grim and violent, and who can get very angry if anyone else dares to criticize it. And their defense of anything that someone might criticize too often comes down to "that's the way things were back then" -- very often (but not always) from people who have only the vaguest and most limited idea of how things really were.

And besides that, I believe those most vocal readers and writers gravitate toward that era because it offers a chance to depict a level of violence not present in other times and places. Writers have a story that they want to tell (for whatever reason), and that story is filled with rape and violence, and they choose or invent an era that allows that plot to unfold. It's not an accident. And do readers who use the argument of realism say to themselves, "I'm going to read a book set in a faux medieval world because I rather like that era ... oh, darn, that means I am going to have to read about a lot of violence. Well, I guess I will just have to put up with it." I think not.

Even if that is "how it was back then" (and ignoring everything else about that period that might be interesting to read about and did not involve war and violence) why must so much fantasy be written about that particular era, when there is a whole world and all of history to read and write about?
Yes, and given how things are very different between different places in the world today, sometimes between countries geographically close to one another (I am under a very strong impression that Mexico is very different from the United States, and your share a border), one would have to assume there would be plenty of local variations back then, as well. I can't say I am an expert on the subject, but surely local cultural variations would likely have existed ever since the human species settled?


I think most people would agree with that as a general statement, the problem is that art is subjective and often one person's justified darkness or artistically valid grimness tends to be another persons "nasty-for-it's-own-sake" moment. This tends to come up when people pinpoint specific moments that they feel crossed this line.
Yes, I guess that is the catch. I might also add that a person's tolerance for certain things in fiction can shift, usually to higher tolerance after some exposure to it, I think. And only the author knows for sure their true intentions when including something in their work.

I will grant (in hindsight) that the way I wrote that sentence was quite vague, very general, and possibly bordering on meaningless because of it. I will try to come up with a better or more specific description, but am not sure I can. In the meantime, let me go with an example of what I would call nastiness for its own sake (and it is not Ramsay Snow in Game of Thrones, though he is a good candidate, too)...

Spoiler alert, for the show Vikings...
In season 2, there is a scene of blood eagle, a very brutal execution method where someone's back and ribs are cut up with a knife, chopped up further with an axe, and finally their lungs ripped out and hung out like wings. According to the Wikipedia article, it doesn't seem historically certain it took place, but in that uncertainty, they still opted to include it. Since this uncertainty means either option is a flip of a coin as far as historical accuracy goes, anyway, its inclusion means they would probably not have been very reluctant to include it simply by its brutal nature.
 
Near the end, Loki is beaten up by the Hulk. Literally, he wipes the floor with him.
This is wrong on so many levels...
Yes, the Hulk is nigh on unstoppable. Yes, he's immensely powerful. Yes he would hurt if he hit you.
But he is not subtle...
Loki can disappear and reappear at will. Loki can translocate himself around as much as he wants. Loki can be appear to be in twenty places at once if he wants to! Loki had been shown no more than half an hour earlier in the movie to basically be in two places at once, using exactly that ability to avoid harm and harm someone else. That's how quick and powerful he is.

And yet... this is how Loki is defeated in the film. This is his final effective scene as a bad guy. The hulk just picks him up and beats him to a pulp.

He SHOULD blink away from the Hulk with barely a thought and go off and do something menacing, but he suddenly just becomes useless. it's so stupid!


Well, if Loki wasn't stupid enough to try to reason with the Hulk, maybe he could've gotten away. This was a case of where shutting up is the smarter answer. By the way, my favorite scene.


Yes, I think sometimes there is too much emphasis on grim or dark ideas in stories. It's as if the author is afraid that life doesn't have much happiness, therefore fiction shouldn't either. I've run across the idea in crime fiction as well as fantasy.
 
However, does anybody else feel, as I do, that we have had basically this same conversation a dozen times before? Are we covering any new ground? I don't feel that I am. Has anybody, in the course of these lengthy discussions changed anybody else's mind? I haven't seen it.

That's why I was hoping for some examples of books to discuss, at the beginning of the thread. Seems no one wanted to. :)

Ah, well. :)
 
Hi,

I think it's important to realise that fantasy is not realistic in general. (And I don't just mean by definition!) Look say you've got a fantasy war on - and bad things happen in wars - no question. But most of the time nothing much happens in wars - especially pre twentieth century ones. People sit around in their camps, trenches, and do little. Or they march for days and weeks. Those who die, mostly died of injuries and disease. Up until WWI and II this was the reality of war. But absolutely no one writes it.
True that, about wars, and I would actually expand that to life in general. Most of our time is spent on doing nothing new, special or significant, whether it be mundane tasks, eating, sleeping etc. It is just boring to put that onscreen,
In hindsight, most of us will view our lives as stories. We view history as stories. The meaningful events are isolated and held up, apart from everything else, according to the law of conservation of detail. (a clearly very unrealistic notion, if you think of it, because the stream of meaningless information we have constant access to is enormous, but who would want to know the exact location of a piece of paper on a desk, to a fraction of an inch?).
Only when events are compressed into stories, by excluding an infinitely more massive stream of meaningless information, can we enjoy the stories. But the totally meaningless information is there, as well, at any moment, for the people who are present. I would merely need to look in front of me to see the exact location (to a fraction of an inch) of a piece of paper on my desk in front of me, so if we took the notion of realism to absurdity, the reader should have the exact coordinates of a piece of paper in front of the protagonist.
No matter how hard a writer tried, there is now way they could ever get rid of the law of conservation of detail. They would just bore themselves and their readers to death, and require nearly infinite lists of information.
We often talk about good or bad events, actions, details, information etc. when discussing realism, but the fact is that the totally meaningless is by far the most common type. We are just wired so that we tend to disregard it.

I think most people can do without a flood of meaningless details in fiction.

Grimdark is a reaction to the unrealistic optimism of the mighty heroes journey and the eventual victory trope that pervaded fantasy at least through to the seventies.
Yes, I think the by far most plausible explanation is that that is how it came up. It just seem to have swung the other way, at least for a vocal group.

But it is in itself an unrealistic trope. All your friends will die in unrealistic and unecessarily terrible ways. There will be suffering and death beyond belief. And the hero may well lose. But in the end that's just as fantastic in a bad way as the first was.

What is needed is balance. Bad things happen. Good things happen. And as mentioned many times, when either happens it happens for a reasonable / believable reason.

Cheers, Greg.
Yes, this is pretty much what I have been trying to say.:cool:
 

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