Grim or dark too often treated as realistic...

But most of the time nothing much happens in wars - especially pre twentieth century ones. People sit around in their camps, trenches, and do little. Or they march for days and weeks. Those who die, mostly died of injuries and disease. Up until WWI and II this was the reality of war. But absolutely no one writes it.
To be fair, our news broadcasts are not usually dominated by reports of not much happening (unless nothing is happening). The news, and papers, report what they think are the interesting bits. No doubt there'll be features articles that mention the incident-free hours and days, but they don't get on the front page or in the news bulletins**. And unless a novel's pacing is based on one of those page-per-day diary (a section for every hour of the day), the more boring bits will be entirely absent. (And even if there is that diary-pacing, the focus will still be on the more interesting things going on.)


** - Except in some 24-hour news formats on those occasions when the editors are looking for things to fill the hours on a slow news day.
 
That's why I was hoping for some examples of books to discuss, at the beginning of the thread. Seems no one wanted to. :)

Ah, well. :)

I'll take that up, and point to an example of what I think is "grimdark done right": Sapkowski's Witcher Cycle. Actually the series starts off as a subversion/deconstruction of fairy tales and Tolkeinic fantasy, then slowly grows more disturbing as it goes along (I've read through the fourth book, but I have a feeling I know where things are headed). As I mentioned in a review of Time of Contempt, and will elaborate on in the forthcoming review of Baptism of Fire, the central premise is: what if this Tolkeinic paradigm were real? What would the world actually be like?

The answer is not pretty. Politics is about might not right; people scheme and "good" and "evil" are extremely loose concepts. War is bloody and horrible. Elves and dwarves exist and, as in Tolkein, are receding as humans come into ascendency--but it isn't some noble retreat from the world; rather, it's a very sad and disturbing displacement from racial violence, ghettoization and all the other horrible things humans have done to other humans they deemed "different." And in this, the "heroic" kings of the north are arguably worse than the "evil" emperor of the south.

Grimdark, right? Yes, it is. But the books also have romance and kindness and friendship. There is hope amid the hopelessness. There is a chance for redemption. And all the violence and grim darkness is in fact saying something profound.

(And, for those who feel as if gritty/grimdark fantasy often gives women the short end of the stick, there are lots of compelling, three-dimensional and highly-competent female characters, not least of whom is Yennefer of Vengerberg--possibly my favorite character in all of fantasy.)

This is my kind of grimdark.
 
That's why I was hoping for some examples of books to discuss, at the beginning of the thread. Seems no one wanted to. :)

Ah, well. :)

I agree, if people can cite specific examples of Grimdark done wrong, this would be very useful to the discussion. I think it's the kind of discussion that really does require getting into the technical nitty gritty of how events, prose, character and tone are portrayed in a work to really become useful beyond a general statement of "Grimdark is good when well used and bad when not." :) Especially to aspiring writers like myself who are looking to hone craft and learn from mistakes and successes of others.

EDIT: Just read your post NF. Do you think it's the moment of light in the Witcher cycle that make the Grimdark tone work, or do you feel it's more just a case of a dark tale written well and with depth? I've not read the work but it sounds rather cool from your description. :)
 
Amazon.com: girl with scissors: Books

This is one that I would call an urban fantasy that had what I considered grimdark elements.

I'm not sure if I would be a good judge of what is good and bad in grimdark but this one definitely took me out of my comfort zone a few times. Being moved that way is not all that bad but since this novel was pretty much a young womans descent into madness that she seemed genetically predestined toward it was pretty grimdark all the way through.

In this case the author somehow drew me into the character enough to feel empathy for her even though it was pretty clear that there was little hope in her situation.
 
That's why I was hoping for some examples of books to discuss, at the beginning of the thread. Seems no one wanted to. :)

Ah, well. :)

The trouble is that--and I sense that's where the smiley faces come in--is once someone mentions a specific book, author, or series, the discussion devolves into a quarrel over the merits of that work, and whether it even fits in that subgenre, rather than the subgenre itself.

Take George RR Martin, Joe Abercrombie, and Mark Lawrence. These three clearly write grimdark stuff with the self-defined sense of realism (which is really just absurdity of an unfunny variety), yet once that's said, Mark will swoop in and make the same hollow claim that he doesn't know what grimdark is and the conversation will devolve even further.

The OP has the right of it. Grimdark isn't realistic at all, it's just a mirror darkly of heroic fantasy. Instead of the unrealistic depiction of elves, dwarves, and magic-wielding heroes, you get the unrealistic depiction of hyper-violence, spatterporn, and crapsack worlds filled with crapsack characters.

Grimdark is no more realistic than heroic fantasy, the authors simply choose other things to depict unrealistically.
 
The difference is that there have never been elves, and there's never been magic, in real life. But there have been real-life examples of terrible tortures, mass killings and mass rape (and not just in medieval times). For instance, there's a conference on the last of these being held in London this week:
Global Summit to End Sexual Violence in Conflict

Sexual violence in conflict destroys lives and damages communities.

The Foreign Secretary and Angelina Jolie, Special Envoy for the UN High Commissioner for Refugees, are co-chairing the Global Summit to End Sexual Violence in Conflict on 10-13 June 2014 at ExCel London.

This is the largest gathering ever brought together on the subject, with a view to creating irreversible momentum against sexual violence in conflict and practical action that impacts those on the ground.
Of course, the fact that these terrible crimes exist, and are still going on, does not give a free pass to those who want to depict them gratuitously. It's the gratuitous depiction of torture, killing and rape that's the problem.
 
Of course, the fact that these terrible crimes exist, and are still going on, does not give a free pass to those who want to depict them gratuitously. It's the gratuitous depiction of torture, killing and rape that's the problem.

Yes, these terrible things exist in the real world. But to focus a story on them to the near exclusion of anything else is no more realistic than dwarves and elves. Treating real things unrealistically does not make a story realistic.

The trouble is that the authors still choose to unrealistically depict these things, with barely any hint of consequence outside the acts themselves. They choose to focus on the terrible, exclude the mundane, and treat any sense of decency as anathema as dwarves and elves. To go a bit sideways here, these worlds often strike me as the hyper-religious person's nightmare of a world without their religion. Everyone runs around murdering, raping, torturing without one whit of conscience, decency, or regret. Which, in itself is an absurdity.

Further, one person's gratuitous is another's bland.
 
Hi,

Ursa are you saying that Angelina Jolie isn't a magical elf? I'm shocked!

As for examples of grimdark done wrong I'll give you three that go far too far for me.

i GRRM's Game of Thrones - it was good to start with but for me it just got too bloody as too many of the characters I liked got killed off.

ii The Gap Series - Donaldson - honestly the guy needs to take his prozac. Look by the end of the first part of the second book it was fairly obvious to me that there was no redemption possible for two of the characters (the moderately good guys at that stage). With the girl it was fairly obvious that if she saved the universe, won oodles of money, killed off all the bad guys, found true love and whatever other wondrous outcomes you can think of, it would still not be enough to overcome the godawful nightmare she was lumped with right from the start. If I was her I would want to be dead. So yeah there is a limit on how much suffering you can inflict on your characters before people like me will turn off.

iii And The Men In The Jungle - Spinrad - It's just glorifying violence, rape, sadism and so on. Why would I want to read about characters and scenes that truly revolt me?

Cheers, Greg.
 
Grimdark is no more realistic than heroic fantasy, the authors simply choose other things to depict unrealistically.

This is certainly true to an extent - GRRM uses history as a base, but then exaggerates many aspects fantastically, in the world building, characterisation, and events.

The Wall, for example, would never be so memorable if it was 20 foot tall.

Additionally, he uses the War of the Roses as an inspiration - but even in that bloody conflict, nobles were very wary of killing other nobles. In Westeros, it's done with barely any excuse.
 
Syria's civil war is a terrible example of medieval barbarity in the modern world.

Ursa, I fear that, like land mines, the only people who will sign up will be those who would never accept it as a method or consequence of war in the first place. Still, it's a worthy gesture and may help reduce rape as a weapon of terror. If it does so only a little, it's worth pursuing.

Brian, spot on. Ransoms were just too valuable. Still, several nobles do get captured rather than killed, although they often seem to escape rather than be ransomed.
 
This is certainly true to an extent - GRRM uses history as a base, but then exaggerates many aspects fantastically, in the world building, characterisation, and events.

The Wall, for example, would never be so memorable if it was 20 foot tall.

Additionally, he uses the War of the Roses as an inspiration - but even in that bloody conflict, nobles were very wary of killing other nobles. In Westeros, it's done with barely any excuse.

Not too sure about that Brian. The Wars of the Roses were noted for the change of tact in Mediaeval warfare for the very reason that so many nobles were killed. I could list a couple of dozen nobles who were killed in that conflict, which included the killings of two kings, the murders of two teenage Princes, the clandestine killing of a royal Duke, the summary execution of a royal Prince after capture, a teenage Earl executed after surrendering and I could go on. Thinking about it the writings of George R.R. Martin is rather mild in comparison :)
 
The difference is that there have never been elves, and there's never been magic, in real life. But there have been real-life examples of terrible tortures, mass killings and mass rape (and not just in medieval times).
There have also been real-life examples of the laws of physics making themselves known, for example by chunks of ice melting when the climate is not cold enough. Yet, for some reason The Wall does remain standing, despite apparently being within a short walking distance of land with bare grass.
There have been examples of difficulty finding food in very cold climates, and the fact that such lands have very little people, yet (even if the onehundredthousand figure is exaggerated), the wildlings gather a massive horde, which somehow manages to find provisions.

There are medical limits to what amounts of torture people can take without passing out from pain.

So not only are there unrealistically exaggerated depictions of violence. Even if the violence were depicted realistically, the work is very selective about realism, and ignores other, physics and geography related aspects of it. The question is whether you get to be that selective, while claiming to be realistic.

Still, I admire George R.R. Martin's work for its drama. These things do not bother me that much. At least the depictions of people (and their relative skills in various areas) are generally consistent, which saves me from certain distractions to suspension of disbelief. The factions are also well plotted, overall.

Yes, these terrible things exist in the real world. But to focus a story on them to the near exclusion of anything else is no more realistic than dwarves and elves. Treating real things unrealistically does not make a story realistic.

The trouble is that the authors still choose to unrealistically depict these things, with barely any hint of consequence outside the acts themselves. They choose to focus on the terrible, exclude the mundane, and treat any sense of decency as anathema as dwarves and elves. To go a bit sideways here, these worlds often strike me as the hyper-religious person's nightmare of a world without their religion. Everyone runs around murdering, raping, torturing without one whit of conscience, decency, or regret. Which, in itself is an absurdity.
Pretty much this.


I would point out though, that I wasn't thinking solely of the grimdark subgenre, but any dark events in any speculative fiction (in cases where the dark outcome is not very believable, obviously). Even in heroic fiction, heroes are sometimes facing hardships they shouldn't.
My point was that unrealism can go both ways, by a work being too hopeful or optimistic, or by being too pessimistic. The coin has two sides.

Realism would also mean that heroes get matched up against weaker opponents and earn easy victories sometimes, as well. And sometimes heroes are challenged when they should not be, realistically.
 
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Ransoms were just too valuable.

It's not just that - reputation and honour were also big concerns. Also the fact that major houses were inter-married in a web of diplomatic alliances. One member acting in a dishonourable manner could have a ripple effect on other (horrified) relatives.

There's a reason why, in the War of the Roses, Henry VI and Edward IV had more than one reign. Also, Richard II was a prisoner for a period for time. The horror of the Princes in the Tower was precisely because gentlemen did not act in that manner.

Certainly, Westeros does not relfect the politics of mediaeval Europe in that way. But mediaeval Europe didn't have dragons, either. :)
 
Svalbard, hmm, interesting. Makes me want to read Wars of the Roses history...
 
Not too sure about that Brian. The Wars of the Roses were noted for the change of tact in Mediaeval warfare for the very reason that so many nobles were killed. I could list a couple of dozen nobles who were killed in that conflict, which included the killings of two kings, the murders of two teenage Princes, the clandestine killing of a royal Duke, the summary execution of a royal Prince after capture, a teenage Earl executed after surrendering and I could go on. Thinking about it the writings of George R.R. Martin is rather mild in comparison :)

You probably know more about the subject than I do, so I can't really counter. :)

To be honest, I'm more familiar with the politics through Sharon Penman's Sunne in Splendour - which, although covering the period, is certainly very different in tone to ASoFaI.

Of course, that could just be due to Penman's interpretation. :)
http://www.sffchronicles.co.uk/forum/544652-sunne-in-splendour-by-sharon-penman.html
 
Additionally, he uses the War of the Roses as an inspiration - but even in that bloody conflict, nobles were very wary of killing other nobles. In Westeros, it's done with barely any excuse.
He also gets his inspiration from other historical events. The Red Wedding, for instance, has a precedent in Scotland, the Black Dinner:
The Douglases became so powerful that by the early fifteenth century they were seen as a threat to the stability of the nation. In 1440 the young William Douglas, 6th Earl of Douglas and his brother were invited to dine with the ten year-old King James II of Scotland. Known as the Black Dinner, the occasion was organised by the Lord Chancellor, Sir William Crichton. A black bull's head, the symbol of death, was brought in. After the dinner the Douglas chiefs were dragged out to Castle Hill, given a mock trial and beheaded.

Ursa, I fear that, like land mines, the only people who will sign up will be those who would never accept it as a method or consequence of war in the first place. Still, it's a worthy gesture and may help reduce rape as a weapon of terror. If it does so only a little, it's worth pursuing.
You may be right. But I only posted the link as it was both relevant and, as of today, completely contemporary.[/QUOTE]

There have also been real-life examples of the laws of physics making themselves known, for example by chunks of ice melting when the climate is not cold enough. Yet, for some reason The Wall does remain standing, despite apparently being within a short walking distance of land with bare grass.
But then Westeros is a place where magic works.
 
He also gets his inspiration from other historical events. The Red Wedding, for instance, has a precedent in Scotland, the Black Dinner:

And the Stockholm Bloodbath.

I think the bottom line is that grimdark fantasy focuses on a specific element of the human experience. In that sense it's selectively realistic; much more realistic about that element than heroic fantasy is, but not necessarily more realistic about anything else. In fact, this focus makes it unrealistic in many other ways: a) because while these things have and continue to happen, most of the human experience is mundane and uneventful; and b) because that singular focus can obviate things like hope, faith and so forth.

GRRM isn't writing a history of medieval England; he's writing a fantasy about a place called Westeros that doesn't exist. While it may share some characteristics with our world, it's not a very good representation of our world. Which is fine--it doesn't have to be.
 
Have you seen how thick the ASoIaF books already are? I'd hate for GRRM to have to add all the mundane stuff to it. (It's bad enough having to read/skim the descriptions of meals and banquets, in my opinion.)


Apart from those 24-hour news channels that go live to somewhere where nothing can be seen or heard of what's supposed to be happening there, very few items in the media (even the spread-desperately-thin soaps) include all the boring and insignificant things. Criticising books for missing that sort of "stuff" out -- things that don't affect the plot or the characters we see or are following -- is to ask for books to become far more tedious and far less interesting. (Pardon me if I don't join in this campaign. :))


Which isn't to say that some of that "stuff" can't be of use, if only to provide contrast. I've heard too many pieces of music that are long and continually loud; the brain, though not necessarily the ears, adjusts, so that it all becomes much of a muchness. A few quieter passages would improve them immensely. Without such passages, they soon become silly, at least to me: it's as if the composer has added FF to every indication of what volume a section should be played at, simply because the music needs help (as its inspiration is far too thin).
 
Ursa - I'm not saying that writing about battles makes for worse fiction than, say, writing about deaths from pneumonia, malnutrition, random bacterial infections and consumption. What I am saying, is that having everyone die from violence is not very realistic, as all of these other things were much, much more common than deaths from violence.

To the jist of this thread, the fact is that some people claim works of fantasy like ASOIAF are good because they are "historically realistic." I'm saying that is an inherently untenable claim. They are good for other reasons, because at most they are selectively realistic.
 
To the jist of this thread, the fact is that some people claim works of fantasy like ASOIAF are good because they are "historically realistic." I'm saying that is an inherently untenable claim. They are good for other reasons, because at most they are selectively realistic.

I suspect this is the same argument approached from a different angle. We are all in agreement. :D
 

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