British English editing for Yanks

[Ursa major]

Many years ago, I lived in a house where there was a covenant (these are basically the original freeholder of the land's list of things not to do, unless you pay them for the privilege) that prohibited washing lines. Given that dryers (let alone washer-dryers) were unknown to most of the population back then, no-one took any notice.

Oddly enough, my current house has the same covenant-holder (or however it's termed), but I can have a washing line. No pigs, though; I expect this restriction also applied to that earlier house (as other people from quite a way away also can't keep pigs), and I think it may have been applied to keep the pig farming in the area in check for animal health** reasons. Oh, and while I can have a shed (and do), it can only be used for garden-related things (which it is: no writing studio in the garden for me).


** - As in: not infecting the covenant holder's pigs (leading to commercial losses).

 

[Fishbowl Helmet]

I have two American publishers now, so I'm getting a fair bit of 'can you explain this please?' and 'doesn't translate.' I've also had all my towards/forwards/backwards changed to toward/forward/backward

I'm American but I've always used the 's' versions.

As an aside, in my experience, every book I've picked up which has been supposedly set in the UK, or had UK characters, has been obvious to me within a few lines that the author isn't a Brit and, more often than not when I've checked, they've come from the States. What gives it away? The swearing. You guys have no idea how to use swear words as a Brit would!

Now this is something I'd like to learn about. Any hints, pointers, books, or sites to check?

 

[The Judge]

I'm not sure what Mouse had in mind, and I've not noticed it myself -- but I can't think of any books I've read purportedly set in the UK written by an American, so I may have been spared! -- but the only thing I'd note is that we use swear words as intensifiers as well as just abuse. So "You bloody idiot" as well as "You F*cker" -- but don't Americans do that, too?

We do have a hierarchy of swear words, so bloody, bleeding, sodding and even bugger and the like are considerably less offensive than the f-word. You still wouldn't use them if you wanted to appear polite (though in what is laughingly known as polite society they can swear as well and as creatively as any navvy). Underneath them are euphemisms which were rife in the 50s, but which have gone out of fashion, like flaming, flipping, crikey, crumbs.

 

[HareBrain]

Declare by Tim Powers is largely set in Britain, with a British MC, and is incredibly well done. I only picked up one false note, which was "math" instead of "maths". The fact that "math" got through suggests to me he didn't have a British proof-reader (unless they missed it too or it was a last-minute change). So, however it was he taught himself, do the same.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

Now this is something I'd like to learn about. Any hints, pointers, books, or sites to check?

Swearing in Ireland though is very different*, Also in UK & Ireland it varies by region.
It can be an intensifier., indication of agreement, surprise or even endearment rather than invective or abuse. It depends on context. It also varies with a region by class/background, school attended etc or type of workplace, from LOTS to NONE. So the amount of swearing, context of it (or none) tells a lot about a character to British or Irish reader (Some British Readers or visitors will be puzzled by some Irish usages such as casual 'Feck'[sic] and 'Fecking'[sic] among others, which depending purely on context may mean same or unrelated to the better known "F" word. Irish as consumers of UK printed material inc newspapers since Victorian era, over 90% have UK TV and prevalence of US programs on Irish TV and widespread immigration relatives to USA and UK of course more totally understand UK and USA than vice versa.)

[*
reflected in Film / DVD ratings were swearing has almost no effect so Irish releases can have lower age ratings. Violence & Sex /Nudity rated about same UK& Ireland, i.e. More concerned about Violence and less about Nudity, thus "I Capture the Castle" has same UK /Ireland low rating but was 18+ in USA Cinema due to two nude scenes (I think, I have DVD and it's not Sexual or Erotic).
TV versions of Films in UK have swearing cut compared to DVD release and Ireland tends to use same version, no idea what USA does. So we couldn't watch DVD versions of Bridget Jones (rated lower in Ireland than UK) and Die hard as the language was too obnoxious for our living room.
]

 

[Mouse]

Now this is something I'd like to learn about. Any hints, pointers, books, or sites to check?

I've been reading a lot of contemporary romances lately, so if those float your boat...

One I remember from recently was "what the bloody f*ck?" I had to go and check out where the author was from as I didn't believe a Brit would've written that, and found out she was from Hawaii. We'd say "what the hell?" "what the bloody hell?" or "what the f*ck?" but "bloody f*ck" didn't sit right with me (maybe "what the bloody f*cking hell" might've worked).

Also, in my novel I had a character call another a 'daft beggar." One of the proofers flagged it up and asked whether it should've said bugger (it shouldn't've). Which leads me to...

Swearing in Ireland though is very different*, Also in UK & Ireland it varies by region.
It can be an intensifier., indication of agreement, surprise or even endearment rather than invective or abuse. It depends on context. It also varies with a region by class/background, school attended etc or type of workplace, from LOTS to NONE. So the amount of swearing, context of it (or none) tells a lot about a character to British or Irish reader...

My 'daft beggar' was said by an Irish character (admittedly an Irish character living in England but...) when I read it back I couldn't hear it in an Irish accent. I emailed alc, who said yep, that's very English, and suggested 'awful eejit' instead.

Some British Readers or visitors will be puzzled by some Irish usages such as casual 'Feck'[sic] and 'Fecking'[sic] among others, which depending purely on context may mean same or unrelated to the better known "F" word.

I don't believe there's a single Brit who doesn't understand (and probably uses it themselves!) feck.


So... I think it's already been said in this thread, but simply adding 'bugger' or 'bloody' doesn't make it British. I'd suggest watching some British TV shows that have lots of swearing in. Or read a contemporary novel written by a Brit (and set in the UK).

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Nope, never called anyone a daft beggar in all my life... Bloody eejit would have been my version, awful eejit is probably more southern. (And thereinlies why this is so hard - Alc lives about 100 miles away. I wonder, genuinely, if 100 miles makes the same sort of difference in the US?)

 

[Juliana]

Springs, I grew up in Brazil, where there are regional accents and expressions, but covering large areas of land - you can tell someone is from a certain largish area rather than specifics. I imagine the USA is the same.

When I was in England for University, I remember being amazed at my friend from a small town in Yorkshire who could tell exactly which nearby town someone was from by the way they spoke. Amazing.

Difference is, the UK (and Europe in general) was made up of thousands of small clans and peoples with their own languages, and that reflects in modern-day regional differences (sometimes from one town to the next, like my friend's case!). While places like Brazil and the US, after conveniently almost wiping out the existing population, had a much smaller pool of languages/dialects/accents to start out with.

Sort of completely derailing the thread, but the point is, very difficult to do specific dialogue unless you knew a lot about the area; best I think is to give a rough idea of where the character is from without trying to go too far.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

It's one of reasons I genuinely love doing my Ulster-based stuff - I have fun with the accents and can write with a lovely flow cos they actually talk properly with all the words in the right order and none of this posh tidying up....

 

[Hex]

Somewhat on topic... What drives me mental (using my scottish idiom for a second there -- and I would never call anyone a daft beggar, I'd probably call them a muppet) is people writing about Scotland who overdo everything. So, using the word "loch" -- yes, I do it. I don't do it every time I open my mouth, though, and not all my metaphors are couched in terms of mist/ auburn beauty/ light glancing off lochs.

It's like some people have a fetish about it, and it shows. And it's almost always a sign that they've researched over the internet or been here for a two week holiday. It annoys me when it's about other places too -- some stories set in Prague read like guidebooks to the city -- but it gets me more seriously, I suppose, when it's about the place where I live.

I guess my point is that overdoing the Britishness is as much a giveaway as anything else.

 

[Kylara]

Funny overhearing at Uni last week - "iss just like yeah innit?" replied to with "totes mate, I'ma like whaaa?!"

Now I got the rough gist of that, but couldn't help a little giggle - I doubt I would ever use any of those "words" but they are obviously in the speakers' vocab Thing about places like a uni - lots of people from lots of different places. I also sussed out a German with no discernible accent by the way they structured their sentence - I was rather smug about that

 

[J-Sun]

I wonder, genuinely, if 100 miles makes the same sort of difference in the US?

Well, there are at least three distinct regions in my state and I can usually tell an accent from surrounding counties within the one region because they differ from county to county but it's a tiny flavor of sound in the counties and only a more pronounced accent difference with even a few different more/less common words across the main regions but we'd all sound the same compared to some of your wildly different UK variants. In other words, 100 miles does make a difference but not the same sort of difference. Really, as far as what non-natives might recognize, we have Southern, Yankee, and Midwest/West accents nationally (with some distinct enclaves within them like Bostonian and Cajun), and Canadians have a different accent (and, I'm sure, can tell each other apart to whatever extent) and that covers thousands of square miles of almost an entire continent. Also, accents are being destroyed as people mill about from place to place and most folks try to talk like a Midwestern national news broadcaster - kind of like "the BBC's English", you might say.

I doubt I would ever use any of those "words" but they are obviously in the speakers' vocab Thing about places like a uni - lots of people from lots of different places. I also sussed out a German

Speaking of, I'm going to go out on a limb and say you're from the UK.

 

[Venusian Broon]

I'm not sure this adds anything to the debate! But I spotted it in the Guardian:

http://www.theguardian.com/children...ss-the-pond-louise-rennison-knickers-snogging

 

[Abernovo]

I'm not sure this adds anything to the debate! But I spotted it in the Guardian:

http://www.theguardian.com/children...ss-the-pond-louise-rennison-knickers-snogging

Oh, that is brilliant, VB.
I almost said 'brill', just for the full British Famous-Five-effect.

 

[Juliana]

VB, that was so excellently excellent that I have sent the link to my dad.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

I'm not sure this adds anything to the debate! But I spotted it in the Guardian:

http://www.theguardian.com/children...ss-the-pond-louise-rennison-knickers-snogging

I remember picking that up in the book shop once out of curiosity. I'm not altogether surprised. I wonder how well it works in Mandarin?
Yet who this side can't laugh at the "Egg and I" (Betty McDonald) or "The Grass is greener over the Septic Tank" (Erma Bombrek)? Or 1960s Lucille Ball.

It's a mystery.

 

[Fishbowl Helmet]

I'm not sure this adds anything to the debate! But I spotted it in the Guardian:

http://www.theguardian.com/children...ss-the-pond-louise-rennison-knickers-snogging

That's great. Thanks for the link.

 

[Tyburn]

The guys in red are contractually obligated to walk down the center of the road. No bushes for you!

I picked up on this one - had to double check with a quick spot of Google-fu, 'obligated' dropped out of British English usage a few centuries ago, it's more American or Scots English these days. The 'correct' British English version is 'obliged'.

By the way, I have a chapter heading which confronts one of the transatlantic language issues -
"Apparently, popping out to smoke a fag has an entirely different meaning in Nuevo Francisco, one which is only marginally less socially acceptable."

 

[DaCosta]

I had a recent edit come back saying American's wouldn't recognise 'balls-up' - My editor, being American, thought it was a terrible shame they didn't.

Fascinating thread, by the way.

 

[Tyburn]

I've seen American books use 'bawse-up' and 'bollixed', usually spoken by British characters. My first thought was 'nice try'.

I always thought 'bawse' was more of a Scottish pronunciation of 'balls' anyway.