GRRM - honest thoughts?

[mtzGr]

I will also add that the show has dropped a lot of the "side plots" that many book readers find fascinating.

For instance, I doubt the show will ever touch on Jon's parentage, and it seems like Coldhands, and the mystery surrounding him, has been removed.

While it's story is missing the details and scope of the books, I think the pacing of the show is much better. I'd certainly rather read the last book before it airs on HBO, but after 15 years I won't mind all that much.

As for GRRM "disrespecting" his fans, he doesn't owe anybody anything. Let the guy live.

 

[Dragon Lust]

I believe it's more complicated than "I got my money now f*ck you all!"

Fame can be very toxic to the creative process. It creates distractions, alters an authors personal assessment of his work, and grossly inflates the author's ego. But in my view the most toxic effect of all are the expectations created by Martin's personal fame and the success of ASOIAF. I can't know his own thoughts but I'd guess that most people in his situation would be fearful of creating an ending that didn't measure up to the journey. It could be that some part of Martin is scared to finish the series. He's mastered the beginning and middle of the tale but the ending is a different beast and Martin does seem to have difficulty in bringing plot lines to conclusion.

Not that this thinking goes on at a conscious level. It would manifest as writer's block but Martin would likely be in denial of the cause. And he strikes me as a man capable of monumental feats of denial. Only in 2014 did he acknowledge in an interview that the HBO series might overtake the published books, saying something like "I'd better get going on those".

At 6-8 years per book, and likely three more books to end the series, Martin will be in his late 70s to mid 80s when he finally finishes the series. I'll leave it at that since I don't want to be morbid...

 

[Vince W]

I think I can honestly say now that Martin is only a middling writer. I've had to give up on A Dance with Dragons and regret buying it now. I struggled with A Feast for Crows and this one is no better. Maybe worse.

 

[Pedro Del Mar]

I think I can honestly say now that Martin is only a middling writer. I've had to give up on A Dance with Dragons and regret buying it now. I struggled with A Feast for Crows and this one is no better. Maybe worse.

I wouldn't say he's a middling writer, I think his skills are beyond that but I'd agree that A Dance with Dragons and A Feast for Crows aren't anywhere near the same high level that his previous works are. Far too much filler and too many other characters introduced needlessly. I honestly think these two books could have been released as one with all the chaff removed

 

[Koopa]

i have no quarrel with the last 2 books to be honest.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

neither do I, but I suspect that might have something to do with the fact that when I started reading them, all 5 books were already out so I didn't need to wait so long.

 

[Groot]

I'm just coming up to re-reading the last two books, I think the first three are amazing, i've just flown through the third book. I remember not particulary liking the last two when I first read them, but it will be interesting to see what I think about them this time, especially now that I think it could all be related to a Doran Martell masterplan.

 

[Boaz]

viZ, long time, no see.

A bit too much hyperbole here.

Claiming too much hyperbole is excessive in it's redundancy... but since my posts are founded upon the corner stones of exaggeration, overstatement, amplification, and embellishment, I won't hold reiteration or superfluousness against you in words or posts...

Sorry about the double posting. I know for next time we can do multi quotes. Nice new feature!

If I believed in smilies, I'd insert one here. (It is a nice new feature! I use it often.)
But seriously, you're correct, of course. I've taken my feelings (or my empathy for GRRM) and imagined what GRRM's situation is. I tend to go overboard very easily... especially when I perceive diatribe or outright dismissal about someone else's creative work (all in the name of open discussion) of which I am the beneficiary.

 

[Boaz]

I can't know his own thoughts but I'd guess that most people in his situation would be fearful of creating an ending that didn't measure up to the journey. It could be that some part of Martin is scared to finish the series. He's mastered the beginning and middle of the tale but the ending is a different beast and Martin does seem to have difficulty in bringing plot lines to conclusion.

Not that this thinking goes on at a conscious level. It would manifest as writer's block but Martin would likely be in denial of the cause. And he strikes me as a man capable of monumental feats of denial. Only in 2014 did he acknowledge in an interview that the HBO series might overtake the published books, saying something like "I'd better get going on those".

At 6-8 years per book, and likely three more books to end the series, Martin will be in his late 70s to mid 80s when he finally finishes the series. I'll leave it at that since I don't want to be morbid...

DL, welcome to the Chrons! Sincerely. Welcome. This is going to be a long thread. In a few paragraphs, I'll disagree with your numbers, but none of the rest of the content should be taken personally. I'll just comment, make observations, and then start preaching at the end.

Like I mentioned in my last post, I don't know his thoughts either... all I can do is look at mine and take a guess at his. I agree that he's in a completely different place in life now than he was nineteen years ago when AGOT was published. I daresay we all are. I know I am.

All humans are capable of monumental feats of denial. I know I am. Maybe I'm in denial that the series will be finished sooner rather than later... I'm hopeful.

I respectfully disagree with your math. In the thread The original aSoIaF synopsis, Brian quotes a cover letter from GRRM in October 1993 with thirteen attached written chapters. GRRM started the genesis of what became AGOT in the summer of 1991. From germination to publication AGOT took five years. Two and a half years later came ACOK. ASOS came out less than two years later. The fans' wait was five years from November 2000 to November 2005 when AFFC was published. The longest time between books was the five and a half years for ADWD in July 2011. It's only been three and a half years since the last book. There has never been a six to eight year window between books in this series. From the concept in summer 1991 to book five in summer 2011, he's averaged four years per book. The last two totaled ten years eight months... and I do not disagree that we should expect the last two books to come to publication in roughly the same time frame. Since we're three and a half into book six and it takes another two years and if book seven takes an unprecedented six years we're still looking at a 2023 end to the seven book series.

If it is expanded to include an eighth book... Who knows? It was originally pitched as a trilogy. Three plus one plus two plus one is not a trilogy...

GRRM is now sixty-six years old. Eight years from now, he'll be 74... which is hardly "late 70's to mid 80's."

But unfinished is the word unspoken. What will we do if ASOIAF is never finished?
Well, in the case of JRRT, his son has reworked some as The Silmarillion and published some in it's original or edited states... The Book of Lost Tales, Unfinished Tales, HOMES.

The Canterbury Tales, by Geoffrey Chaucer, was supposed to be a trilogy. But Chaucer's schedule never allowed him to write two more books.

Lord Byron's Don Juan, Samuel Taylor Coleridge's Kubla Khan, Thomas Aquinas' Summa Theologica, and Frank Herbert's Dune series were all unfinished or at least the authors had planned to enlarge the story at a later point.

Since the advent of analog recording, we now have whole catalogs of unfinished works. The Beatles, Jimi Hendrix, Johnny Cash.... Elvis had a number one song thirty years after his death. Brian Wilson finished Smile forty years after leaving the studio!

There was one Renaissance sculptor (his name escapes me) who made a career of unfinished sculpts... non finito or infinito, I forget. I was always a very poor art student.

I've said it before... we've got to enjoy the ride while it lasts. What kind of online, salon, book club, or water cooler discussion is there for Robin Hobbs' Farseer Trilogy? None. And still none. The Farseer Trilogy is excellent! But they were published in '95, 96' and '97... and the shared community excitement over them is gone. Maybe you could convince your friend to read it... then you'd have one other person's views on the subject.

What about Harry Potter? Harry Potter was the biggest thing to hit planet earth since Beatlemania! How much action has there been since January 1, 2014 on the Chrons' Rowling forum? Nineteen different threads have seen action. What about JRRT? He's the godfather of fantasy lit! Thirty-five active threads since Jan 2014. Well, GRRM's forum has had 105 different threads see replies since Jan 2014. Why? Is GRRM better than JRRT or more popular than Rowling? No.

Folks, we are in the moment. This is it. If neither Potter nor Middle-earth can sustain thriving interest, then what will happen with this forum? Within twelve months of the end of the series, this forum will have action in only three dozen threads. Within two years that number will be a dozen... Just take a look at the Robin Hobb forum. She's still writing, but only thirteen threads were replied to in 2014... and none have seen action in seventy days!

This means we are sitting on our ASOIAF surfboard right now waiting for that next wave. Some newcomers just caught the last wave and want to talk and laugh as we wait the next big one. Surfers wait minutes or hours for a wave... our next wave is in two years. I like the camaraderie, the joking, the trivia, the discussion as we watch the next big one slowly build up...

So enjoy it. Cherish it. Enjoy the ride. There may be an abrupt ending, but that does not mean the ride was not fun. A surfer's favorite moment is not getting back to the beach... it's the anticipation, it's about being in the moment catching a wave, it's about riding the wave, it's about talking to friends about it later... it's definitely not the flying back home.

We have to hope that next wave is coming and that it's a good one. I know I am.

 

[Koopa]

Sure there is fun in speculating/wondering, still i have to mostly disagree boaz. At the end of the day i still have more fun reading them, than anticipating them. Sure the discussion about the books become smaller/less intense, but that's normal. When a story is finished, you go out for the next story to enthrall you. Especially since most of the time, the big storylines are revealed and people prefer to have 'definite' endings. Perhaps because real life doesn't really have that, except for maybe death, which most people rather hope is a long time coming.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

Sure there is fun in speculating/wondering, still i have to mostly disagree boaz. At the end of the day i still have more fun reading them, than anticipating them. Sure the discussion about the books become smaller/less intense, but that's normal. When a story is finished, you go out for the next story to enthrall you. Especially since most of the time, the big storylines are revealed and people prefer to have 'definite' endings. Perhaps because real life doesn't really have that, except for maybe death, which most people rather hope is a long time coming.

I put it to you Koopa, that reading the books IS part of the anticipation. you turn the page to find out what happens next.

And let's say Martin announced today that WoW would be coming out in May, 2015. If you told me you weren't excited about that news or excited to have the book in your hands, I would call you a liar.

 

[Pedro Del Mar]

Boaz - that was fabulous!! Loved it! Thank you for making me smile

 

[Koopa]

I put it to you Koopa, that reading the books IS part of the anticipation. you turn the page to find out what happens next.

And let's say Martin announced today that WoW would be coming out in May, 2015. If you told me you weren't excited about that news or excited to have the book in your hands, I would call you a liar.

well yeah, you're right. But i still feel anticipating being able to read, and reading and thus anticipating what's gonna happen next is somewhat different.

 

[Boaz]

At the risk of derailing this thread on honest thoughts on GRRM, I'll add a bit more regarding my opinion of criticism.

I feel that art can be judged enjoyable or not, but I don't like to see the creator or his/her efforts denigrated. Specifically, when I see GRRM's commitment to his story questioned, when I hear that he does not care about the story... then I want to defend him. ASOIAF to date is over 4,200 pages from GRRM's imagination. ASOIAF is twenty years of the man's life. How many critics out there have put twenty years into a project? Do you think they'd like to be questioned as to their commitment? Do you think a woman would like to be told on her twentieth wedding anniversary that you doubt she'll make it another year?

Mayhaps GRRM is wise enough to shut out the naysayers and the web trolls. I do think people like Stephen King and J.K. Rowling are qualified to critique Martin's work and his efforts. That's because they've been there. The public has howled for their books... and clamored over the delays. Both authors have wrought massive contemporary fantasies from their own brains and then had the public and the media pick them apart.

I find critiques like "I cannot stand incest. The mere suggestion that it might be okay in certain instances offends me." or "GRRM has too many POVs in ADWD. He's lost his ability to keep it cohesive." or "Martin's preference for socialism and atheism are barely hidden as the story moves forward. And the themes of job performance versus self awareness are poorly developed." as perfectly appropriate. Those criticisms are about the books. Sure, they involve GRRM's personal views, but every author must incorporate those.

It's the criticisms that attack the man that bother me... and believe me when I say that I'm absolutely confident that GRRM and I are almost polar opposites theologically and politically.

Edit:

Mayhaps I'm wrong... I've assumed the title of the thread, GRRM - honest thoughts?,to refer to his writings and not him. If not, then I've assumed incorrectly.

If it is to be about the man, then I'd rather see us discuss his like of cats (I personally dislike cats, contrary to what my avatar suggests), his thoughts on football, his penchant for and his style in hats, and his taste in food. We could even discuss his religio-socio-political views. But discussing his fortitude, his intelligence, and his health do not interest me.

That's my two cents. Thanks for the time and for the space for my views.

 

[Koopa]

Well, it's only normal to want to be able to read the following books. I doubt anyone here ever sent crazy mail telling grrm to start writing more. I mean we'll get it if and when we get it, nothing we can do about it anyways. Seems to me harassing someone for something works counteproductive too. Concerning certain topics (like talk of mortality) there's a thin line that is both easily crossed and hard to define and is probably different for everyone.

 

[Boaz]

Kiwi, I've sent him two emails... on in 2007 and one the next year. I encouraged him to enjoy life with his wife and his friends. To my first email, I recieved a personal response. To the second, I received a form email thanking me for my kind words. I suppose I've contributed to his workload.... and I suppose I am a fanboy.... er fanman... I'm getting close to fifty.

 

[soulsinging]

I think he has too much on his plate with the show and what not and is making slow progress. I also think if he hadn't padded the last two books so badly he'd be a lot further on.

Yeah, ostensibly there was going to be a jump of a few years after Storm of Swords, one he filled in with what turned out to be TWO books (AFFC and ADWD). I think that was a big mistake on his part and I'm starting to worry he's lost control of his narrative like Jordan did. I'm not so cynical as to think he's padding it for cash or slacking because he doesn't care, but I do think the pressure of keeping readers off their toes (combined with the internet making it impossible not to have every possible twist explored hundreds of pages before he's ready to reveal) is getting to him.

Also, I think the story would have been tighter with the planned jump. A lot of the compelling drama from books 1-3 was due to walking in to the middle of a ton of schemes. Now those are mostly resolved, so a whole new round of schemes needs setting in motion. Laying that groundwork is not really as interesting to read as watching the dominos fall.

 

[soulsinging]

I respectfully disagree with your math. In the thread The original aSoIaF synopsis, Brian quotes a cover letter from GRRM in October 1993 with thirteen attached written chapters. GRRM started the genesis of what became AGOT in the summer of 1991. From germination to publication AGOT took five years. Two and a half years later came ACOK. ASOS came out less than two years later. The fans' wait was five years from November 2000 to November 2005 when AFFC was published. The longest time between books was the five and a half years for ADWD in July 2011. It's only been three and a half years since the last book. There has never been a six to eight year window between books in this series. From the concept in summer 1991 to book five in summer 2011, he's averaged four years per book. The last two totaled ten years eight months... and I do not disagree that we should expect the last two books to come to publication in roughly the same time frame. Since we're three and a half into book six and it takes another two years and if book seven takes an unprecedented six years we're still looking at a 2023 end to the seven book series.

I'm not sure your math is much better. The last two took 10 years 8 months, whereas the first three took less than 9.5 years combined. Doesn't take a statistician to see that even if his average is only 4 years, he is slowing down considerably. He went from 3 years per book to over 5, so 6-8 years apiece from here on out isn't too wild a guess.

On top of that, 9.5 years for the first 3 books comes from his now infamous letter. However, we don't know if he started writing immediately for one thing. Even more telling, he proposed 3 books TOTAL then. The first book in that "trilogy" ALONE became 3 books on its own. Then the next two books he wrote (which took over a decade) weren't even part of that original plan and apparently only take the series to the START of book 2 of that trilogy.

So basically, we're 5 books and 20 years into this saga and only book ONE of his original story arc has been put to print, with a full two to go.

The best case scenario was him returning to initial productivity levels and wrapping up the last 2 books in just 2 books... but his best rate was a book every 2.5 years and we're already 3.5 years since the last. I'd say the smart money is a wait at least as long as the last two have required, and there's no telling if book 6 will be book 2 in his trilogy with book 7 being book 3, or if book 6 will actually be volume 1 of 5 in the 2nd movement of a now-15-book "trilogy," with the last 10 needing 5-6 years apiece and requiring another 50 years to complete.

Of course I'm no more sure of anything than any of us. I'm just pointing out that if one was a betting man, there's a better than fair chance that we're still closer to the beginning of his story than we are to the end, in terms of number of years in the telling. At this point, I'd wager that if it took 20 years from conception to the publication of book 5, then it will be at least 20 years from 5 to finish, whether that's 2 books or 10.

 

[atala]

I think his attempt to explain every little detail and step in the story has left him with such a complicated task before him that it just takes a long time to write. Every character has a voice, a story, an opinion that have to somehow make sense in order to have all the roads meet at the end. Dany's quest for example will (in my opinion) invariably take her to Asshai but the need for her to learn some basic ruling/queenly skills was the excuse for her sitting on her throne for the most part of a Dance with Dragons. Arya has also to learn assassin, survival and other skills to become the warrior we all expect her to be, and so on.

At the beginning, the story was going to have a time-jump of about 5-10 years, in which our beloved characters would either die or grow into their future selves. Now though, Martin decided to write and tell the story of these "lost" years which I do not think he ever thought would be such a taxing task. So now we are left to wait while Martin tries to weave this complicated book from so many story strands. Eventhough the tv series will end before Martin finishes the books I will still read the them once he is done.

 

[Werthead]

On top of that, 9.5 years for the first 3 books comes from his now infamous letter. However, we don't know if he started writing immediately for one thing. Even more telling, he proposed 3 books TOTAL then. The first book in that "trilogy" ALONE became 3 books on its own. Then the next two books he wrote (which took over a decade) weren't even part of that original plan and apparently only take the series to the START of book 2 of that trilogy.

So basically, we're 5 books and 20 years into this saga and only book ONE of his original story arc has been put to print, with a full two to go.

Not entirely accurate.

The original was for a trilogy, consisting of AGoT, ADWD and TWoW, focusing on the Starks, Daenerys and Jon respectively. That went out the window pretty quickly as the three stories developed at a comparable level of complexity, instead of the orginal plan which seemed to rotate the importance of the storylines (i.e. Book 1 being dominated by the Stark/Lannister conflict with Jon and Dany as subplots; Book 2 being dominated by the Dany story with the others as subplots; and Book 3 being about Jon with the rest as subplots). That then expanded the storylines: the civil war story expanded across three books, Daenerys getting the dragons and conquering Slaver's Bay became a bigger story than originally conceived and Jon's story seems to have been complicated by the wildlings, becoming Lord Commander and interacting with Stannis.

Although the original trilogy/three-act structure may still be vaguely applicable to the series as it stands, in its details it is long gone.

With the second act of the story, after the five-year gap (itself not in the original plan, but it was when George finished writing ASoS) it was supposed to open with Jon being commander on the Wall after five years and dealing with the complexities of the wildlings either settling on the Gift or being attacked by the Others beyond the Wall; Cersei messing up in King's Landing after five years of losing the plot (as opposed to more like five months); Brienne wandering the Riverlands and eventually stumbling over Lady Stoneheart; Arya training in Braavos and Bran with the Three-Eyed Crow; and Daenerys coming under attack in Meereen from a coalition of enemies and learning to ride Drogon. This pretty much is what exactly happened in AFFC and ADWD, it was just happening after a few weeks or months rather than five years.

It's also easy to forget that events during the gap were still supposed to happen on-page, they were just going to be flashbacks. Martin is instead putting them on-stage in real time.

So whilst we can say that AGoT/ACoK/ASoS were somewhat nearly Act I, it's not the case we are still in the gap between Act I and Act II. Some of the events in AFFC/ADWD were meant to happen off-stage but a lot of them were definitely part of the original Act II. I agree it's concerning that Daenerys hasn't got to Westeros yet, an event Martin seemed to postulate would originally happen around the halfway mark of the series if not a bit later than halfway, but George has also radically changed the timeline and order of events in the series before. It is possible he will do so again. In particular, it always seemed anticlimatic that Dany would invade and secure Westeros before the Others' invasion, Having both invasions happen simultaneously is far more chaotic and interesting (and concise).