Diving right in (1300 words)

[crystal haven]

Okay, I'm going to stick my neck out, which I haven't really done until now, and say I really liked the original prologue you had (or the one I read) and the original chapter one. I thought it explained a lot that is missing (in my opinion) in this, and yet didn't give away too much, so the mystery was there.

Sorry I'm not in a dream. And otter suits are really hard to come by.

Crystal

 

[HareBrain]

I'll give it some serious thought. Thanks @crystal haven (and @springs, and @Ray McCarthy for the Zen wisdom, and everyone else).

And hm, I wonder if there's a vast untapped market for otter onesies?

 

[Bowler1]

And hm, I wonder if there's a vast untapped market for otter onesies?

Maybe not a vast market, but I'd have one.

 

[HareBrain]

Only one, seriously? You'd need a work one, a formal evening one, a lounging-about one, a sports one, a pyjama one, plus you'd need spares for some of those for when they're in the wash ...

 

[Kerrybuchanan]

Aaargh, now you Irish are ganging up on me!

We have barely started. I went back just now and reminded myself of the original prologue. I'm afraid I agree, it is better.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Could I argue that since the national day of Oirishness is approaching that it is a cosmic sign that all people Irish are right, and your divine need for a sign has been delivered? Only otter suits itch...

 

[HareBrain]

I went back just now and reminded myself of the original prologue.

The one with Geist and Raven? I want to check because you only joined last August (was it really only then?), and I think I last put it up way before that.

a cosmic sign that all people Irish are right

Yes, I can see that, even when you disagree fanatically with each other.

and your divine need for a sign has been delivered

I guess in the absence of a leprechaun whispering in my ear, it might have to do.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Yes, I can see that, even when you disagree fanatically with each other.

Oi!

 

[Kerrybuchanan]

Sorry for the confusion. I meant this one, which was the only one I knew about: http://www.sffchronicles.com/threads/550747/

 

[HareBrain]

Yes, I can see that, even when you disagree fanatically with each other.

What I meant, of course, @springs, is "even when you disagree with yourself".

http://www.sffchronicles.com/threads/541372/#post-1725903

I can understand that you might have been swayed by your decision to remove your own prologue (a decision you might now have reversed, is that right?), but don't your other objections (and Chris's opinion) still stand?

(I also admit that version of the prologue had some changes I reversed afterwards, such as O&C trying to run away, but I don't know that they were enough to swing the argument.)

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Well, I ended up putting my prologue back in, so I've evidently changed my mind since then... Maybe its distance - but now, when I think of TGP, it's that scene with Geist and Raven that sticks with me. Or maybe it's because I'm looking at it without the prologue and seeing the problems that presents now. Or it could even be that I was young and foolish and wrong (but whisper it...)

 

[HareBrain]

Maybe its distance - but now, when I think of TGP, it's that scene with Geist and Raven that sticks with me.

A reader, in five years' time: "Oh, that prologue that really jarred with the opening chapter and made me throw it across the room -- actually, I liked that. I wonder if the book's still in the charity shop?"

It does seem to have stuck with quite a few people, though, including me. I wonder if that really means anything in terms of a decision?

 

[TheDustyZebra]

So now I have to find an Otter-onesie pattern (adult size) AND learn how to appear in dreams?

 

[Jo Zebedee]

A reader, in five years' time: "Oh, that prologue that really jarred with the opening chapter and made me throw it across the room -- actually, I liked that. I wonder if the book's still in the charity shop?"

It does seem to have stuck with quite a few people, though, including me. I wonder if that really means anything in terms of a decision?

Hmmm, but I also remember on that thread my voice was a minority one, was it not? Have I joined the majority now?

Anyway - what's your feelings?

 

[HareBrain]

Anyway - what's your feelings?

I always liked that prologue, and I see now that it brought benefits I perhaps didn't realise at the time. It did away with the need for much of the the drip-feed of information that I felt myself rebelling against at the start of the revised ch1. It provides some hint of the scale of the story, which might not be a bad thing in a submission (where I would, of course, call it ch1).

Against that, there's the old problem (raised by several in that other thread) that it gives too much emphasis to Geist, when it isn't his story. And it doesn't answer what Geist actually wants, except in hints -- nor can it, really. But I might try a few submissions with it in, since taking it out hasn't got me anywhere.

 

[jastius]

I thought it was an orc too...

Now you have said he is human... (Really didn't scoop that from the rest of the excerpt somehow.. Its not as if every orc you meet up with is chasing after a hobbit after all. Some are perfectly respectable.. Even have shops and things.. Maggoty Bread Bakery's and suchlike... After all my favorite troll in a story doesn't live under a bridge.. He is an enchanted head in a bag, trying to get the hero into all sorts of trouble with the evil sorcerers by screaming out everyone's secrets at the worst times...)
Anyways after you kinda disappointed me with him being human and all, I started adding an 'i' into the middle of his name..{.. I+orc.. Oirc } ..So it was a nice Irish sounding name to be reading then to be sure..

couldn't you use the best bits of both openings..?
if you give craic a job title directly after his name it introduces him as a possible minor character. creating distance between the reader and the character.

 

[Brian G Turner]

But I might try a few submissions with it in, since taking it out hasn't got me anywhere.

I'm going to be horribly bombastic and opinionated here, so my apologies in advance - but IMO the name Orc is doing you no favours. Let's be clear - you have a fantasy novel where a protagonist is called Orc, so isn't it entirely reasonable that many people might think that he really is an Orc?

This has caused confusion among a number of chronners who have sat down to patiently read your work - so what sort of effect do you think the name will have on any agent or editor rushing through your opening?

You've stubbornly kept to the name - even though it's not even his real name, but instead a nickname assigned to a minor secondary character you even wrote out from the beginning.

Is it really worth keeping that nickname, if there is a danger that agents, editors, and readers, might presume your story is about a snorkelling hobgoblin? Yes, I'm being flippant - but can you really tell me it isn't having that effect?

Even if you did decide to keep it, and did get a deserved publishing contract, I can see nothing but resistance in the industry to you keeping the name. How would you convince the marketing department that a fantasy character named Ord isn't really an Orc, and can cause no confusion to potential buyers?

IMO this is all something you need to seriously consider, and that all your attempts to rewrite the opening simply skirt around the elephant in the room that you have so far refused to change. Is so much potential confusion really worth it if the nickname is not essential to either the character or plot?

Oh course, it may be, and this is all simply a personal opinion. But you have plainly demonstrated that you can write to a high standard, and this story is good - is it worth risking so simple a misunderstanding?

 

[Hex]

I think this is yet another advantage of bringing the prologue back (yey! Geist!) -- isn't there a bit where the kids name themselves and we find out why Orc is called Orc? And when Geist sees them, he's quite clear that they're human. When I read the story, I didn't consider that he might actually be an orc, probaby mainly because it's not that kind of story but also, I think, maybe because you'd dealt with the issue somewhere early on? I guess you could change it if you want, but it's such a simple change I doubt it will be a reason for rejection from agents etc. so you could always wait until your Tor editor (or whoever) suggests you change it.

EDIT: more generally, I like the Geist prologue. It's an insight into the world that Orc and Cass are waking up to, and it's good to be introduced to it through Geist (and the fabulous raven).

 

[HareBrain]

Brian, I appreciate your forthrightness, though I don't understand what you mean here:

even though it's not even his real name, but instead a nickname assigned to a minor secondary character you even wrote out from the beginning.

Orc is the MC of the entire series.

I dunno, I did create a thread about this very question some years back, and 90% of respondents thought it wasn't a problem. I think it will be even less of a problem with the old prologue back in, since the characters are introduced before the name is, and the name is explained at once. (As Hex pointed out while I was writing this.)

You might be right, but I've had no sign that the name has affected any of the responses I've had so far. It might have done, of course, but I would have thought that if it was only the character's name stopping agents from asking to see more of it, they would have gone ahead but advised me to change it. (As Hex also pointed out while I was writing this.)

I do, however, take the point about marketing, and that would apply even if I ended up SP-ing it. (I think it's now doubtful that I will get picked up with this one, but I have other irons in the fire.)

None of that answers why I'm resistant to changing it, since that seems to be such an easy thing to do. But it would change the character for me. The obvious alternative, if I were to stick to real wetsuit manufacturers, would be Cam from Camaro. But .... hmm.


ETA: re my confusion about the quoted paragraph, I guess you meant assigned by?

 

[Jo Zebedee]

@brianturner - but none of the full story betas are confused at all - it's very clear he's a bloke. How much that was because the original prologue set that very firmly is another matter. But once you knew why he was orc (and the reason was given before the name) it's actually effective because it reminds the reader what the mystery is and keeps the conflict in plain sight all the time.