Diving right in (1300 words)

[Brian G Turner]

I guess you meant assigned by?

Apologies, yes, that's what I meant.

If the prologue clears it up quickly, that may go some way to assuaging it. But I would still suggest it may raise concerns at a publisher - for example, how would marketing write the cover blurb to make clear that this is a fantasy novel about a character called Orc who is not an Orc?

none of the full story betas are confused at all - it's very clear he's a bloke

Well, of course - but I'm talking about the people who know nothing about the piece, and need to do so quickly.

I'm only raising the point - I'm not saying that I'm right.

 

[Kerrybuchanan]

Being a latecomer to Chrons, the first version of this story I read didn't have the original prologue. When Orc appeared, I did have a flash of an orc image for a moment, but that lasted for a tiny amount of time. I remember thinking 'oh, his name's Orc' and then reading on happily.

 

[Mouse]

It never occurred to me that Orc was an orc. Ever. I'm aware that HB is not JRRT. That probably sounds more bitchy* than I intend, but orcs = LoTR to me, and not a lot else. I'd think of an orca whale before a LoTR orc, and obvs. I'd know the character wasn't a whale.


*Erm... I realise that makes it sounds like I am going for a degree of bitchiness. I'm not. I'll just shut up now.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

some years back, and 90% of respondents thought it wasn't a problem.

Obviously not so many orcs about in those days.

 

[The Judge]

If you're wanting votes about the Geist prologue...

Re the Orc question, the version of the prologue I first read had the names on the wet suits but Geist didn't actually name the two of them, so when Orc appears in Chapter One there's no explanation for his name, and I recall it was some distance in before I twigged the names came from the wet suits. Nonetheless I simply accepted Orc as a name, even before I was sure he was one of the characters we'd seen washed up on the beach.

As to this new beginning, for me it falls between two stools as it stands in the absence of the Geist prologue. It's not giving enough information for me to place the characters and setting and approx technology level etc to settle me, but nor is it immediately dramatic enough for me to get caught up in the story and not worry about the who/what/where -- that very opening para does nothing for me I have to confess.

 

[Bowler1]

Feeling a little guilty for all the trouble caused, is it too late to have my spanner back?

A name is easily enough changed if needed. For now, if it were me, I'd write and get the main task of completing the story done and then see what agents/publishers want. One step at a time.

Time to head off to some quite dark corner for a while.

 

[HareBrain]

Feeling a little guilty for all the trouble caused,

Don't worry, it helped prompt me to put the old prologue back (since the name then becomes less of an issue), which is a decision I'm happy with. And the story is complete, and has been for years.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

I first read had the names on the wet suits but Geist didn't actually name the two of them, so when Orc appears in Chapter One there's no explanation for his name, and I recall it was some distance in before I twigged the names came from the wet suits

What is difficulty with girl called Orca and guy called Cass, or dropping "Orc" as a nickname entirely? I don't understand the fixation of calling the guy Orc because one wetsuit is labelled "Orca"

 

[HareBrain]

Only that in a world without Tolkien, I couldn't see "Orca" not being shortened to "Orc".

ETA: actually, I might have tried to answer a different question than the one you asked. But as for explaining fixation: I'm a writer.

 

[TheDustyZebra]

I never even considered that he might be an orc. If he were an orc, his name would be ...Fred, or Humphrey, or some name-like thing, not Orc. He's clearly human, and the name Orc doesn't bother me, even before finding out where he got it.

I really don't think the name thing is a problem.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

But as for explaining fixation: I'm a writer.

I don't think it needs to be explained by being a writer. Some kind of perversion of our survival instincts.

 

[Dan Jones]

Hi HB, just getting to this as I've been away for a few days.

I must admit, I enjoyed the original opening a little better. You know where the strengths in this chapter are (the chase sequence) and I see why you've decided to get straight to it. But I I enjoyed the sinister tranquility of the original opening upon the sea, hinting at the sense of unease. I try to imagine scenes I'm writing in a cinematic way, and for me the original opening seemed to frame the narrative a little better. And in the original you get in early a hint - just a hint - of the relationship between Orc and Cass. I think it's important to retain this.

That's not to say that some of the exposition could still go, like the chatter with the rough sailor types before they take the plunge and the bit about them needing the money. That's arguably fluff and you can justify its omission.

I feel your pain, by the way. I'm now rewriting my opening for the 8th or whatever time it is in order to get it right; pain in the bum doesn't quite cut it.

Re: Orc's name, it never bothered me when I read through the first few chapters. I liked it, and I thought the Orca reference was a nice sidestep and way of subverting people's expectations. When I first came onto Chrons and read a post about TGP I assumed it was a Tolkienesque fantasy. When I read through I was pleased at the undercutting of this. If it were me I would spin it as putting enough confidence in your readers that they'll get it. Which they will. Hell, if I can anyone can.

Hope I'm not too late to help. As I said before, I can't wait to read the rest.

 

[Dan Jones]

PS great thread title

 

[HareBrain]

Thanks DG. I have now decided (hopefully not just for the moment!) to go back to the original opening, and to reinstate an earlier prologue, which seems to have been quite well-liked, and which has met with the approval of a couple of new readers I've tried it out on.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Huzzah!

 

[HareBrain]

(Though of course I'm now revisiting those old nightmares of whether to call it a prologue, and how to word the bit in my query that used to read "I attach the first three chapters and synopsis" without either lies or clumsiness.)

 

[LittleStar]

(Though of course I'm now revisiting those old nightmares of whether to call it a prologue, and how to word the bit in my query that used to read "I attach the first three chapters and synopsis" without either lies or clumsiness.)

With regards to this, I went to a talk with an agent a few weeks ago and he said that he expected around 50k words. When asked about why people usually say first 3 chapters, he pretty much said they're the same thing. If your chapters come in at 2k each for example, then 3 chapters doesn't cover that.
Thinking about it now though, 50k does seem a large chunk of even a decent size novel, but it makes this comment seem irrelvent if i just say'actually go with what the websites say' He seemed to say that it was what most agents expect.
i don't mean to derail the thread with this new topic though

 

[Jo Zebedee]

(Though of course I'm now revisiting those old nightmares of whether to call it a prologue, and how to word the bit in my query that used to read "I attach the first three chapters and synopsis" without either lies or clumsiness.)

Just attach the prologue and first two chapters and say please find attached, as per your guidelines. If they like it, they won't care.

 

[HareBrain]

With regards to this, I went to a talk with an agent a few weeks ago and he said that he expected around 50k words. When asked about why people usually say first 3 chapters, he pretty much said they're the same thing. If your chapters come in at 2k each for example, then 3 chapters doesn't cover that.

You're sure he didn't say fifty pages? That's a common request from UK agents whose websites I've looked at: fifty double-spaced pages or three chapters. 50k words would be half an adult novel.

 

[LittleStar]

Yeah, 50pages, that sounds more likely. I knew that sounded a bit much. Whoops