Falling Numbers -- Fewer Members Entering the Challenge

[The Ace]

I only entered once, and was disqualified.

I'm not sure if Gloster Meteors (entered service in 1944 in the UK) intercepting the Japanese bombers that consequently failed to sink Force Z and allowed Singapore to (potentially) stand (December 1941) didn't suit the parameters of, 'Time Travel,' or if - despite numerous checks - I went over the limit.

Frankly, I just can't be a**ed, and yes, the prevailing attitude doesn't help matters. A little feedback instead of a simple disqualification would've been nice.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

We have never disqualified a story because it didn't suit the perameters of the theme, leaving that judgement up to the voters. Stories are only removed for breaking the rules, either the site rules or the challenge rules. Almost always this has been because a story has gone over the word limit, and I am sure that was the case with yours. If no one told you, either in a PM or by mentioning it in the Discussion thread when saying that a story was removed -- or both -- then I am greatly surprised, but of course you will know best if anyone contacted you.

 

[The Judge]

Well, I can definitely answer that one, Ace, as I recall it very well, since your entry was only the second we had to remove for being over word count, and the first was in the same month. Your piece actually came in at 79 words, so well over the 75 limit, and you should have had a PM confirming that fact.** It's a great pity you haven't returned to the Challenges for another attempt.

In case anyone is worried, while we might have views on whether a story fits with theme and genre, we would never remove one on that basis.


** EDITED TO ADD: I've gone back and checked. As this was the first time it happened, and we hadn't got systems in place, it might be a PM wasn't sent to you, which is a pity. I know I confirmed the situation in the-then Discussion thread for both you and the other member whose story was liable to be disqualified, and then Cul confirmed the disqualifications. I know the other member definitely did get a PM as I've seen his responses, but belated apologies if no PM was sent to you at the time.

 

[Hex]

Just wanted to say I thought this was a great month, CC. I didn't enter because I didn't have any ideas (which has, sadly, become a bit common recently) and I was away for a large chunk of the month which meant I didn't cudgel my brain as hard as I sometimes do because I was too busy sunning myself (hah!) on a beach.

I've really enjoyed some of the tricksier challenges we've had. I'll confess to having enjoyed Tudor punk a lot, and also that westerny one we had, and the anthropomorphismismsmsmsmsmmm one. I like the more open ones too, and it's great to have a mix.

Wish I was one of those people who are creative enough to enter every month. Bah. (exits, stage left, shaking jealous fist)

 

[TheDustyZebra]

No, I would have been removed the very first month, if not fitting theme/genre was grounds for disqualification. And, not having a record to maintain, would undoubtedly have missed a number of other months since then.

I'm not sure I really see any serious drop in those statistics -- from what I see in the summary posted above, we've only been a few short of the first year for the last couple of years. It doesn't strike me as cause for panic and alarm. I'll have to study the one with the theme/genre listings, to see if there is any correlation.

Personally, I don't mind the odd ones -- I think those spark ideas more quickly for me, even though I may not get around to writing them until the deadline looms. When it's an ordinary combination, I frequently don't even bother mulling it over until it's time to write a story. The unusual ones kind of niggle at the back of my brain and keep me thinking about them even when I'm not.

I did try to direct newcomers to the Challenges, in the introduction threads, for a while, but it came to my attention that I was being comically over-enthusiastic and repetitive, so I stopped.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Yes, a PM was apparently sent to The Ace -- you will find a record of it in Elegant Missives, TJ -- and I have just sent the text of it to The Ace by private message.

So there was feedback.

I can see, however, how having a story removed for any reason would be discouraging.

 

[The Judge]

Ah, I coudn't immediately find Elegant Missives, so I was going on the usual About the Writing Challenges thread and what I found there.

 

[ratsy]

Since finding the challenges I think I've taken part in every single one...75 and 300. I have struggled in some months (Tudorpunk) and probably a couple others. I just do my best to come up with something acceptable.

I don't know that we should be worried. Do we want 200 entries? Think of the time our wonderful reviewers put in, and the time we spend reading, analyzing and voting. Just something to think of.

Dusty, I always thought you directing peeps in the introductions was a great idea. I was a member for years before I even knew about the challenges. They are what sparked me into writing and becoming a more active community member.

I do like the odd ones though, and the general ones. I actually learn about genres I never heard of or understood so it helps the knowledge base and stretches our writing biceps.

So I like the way we go with them and don't feel like its gotten out of hand. As for the newbies thing, I can't speak for them but when I started i just wanted to get mentions and any comments, and built from there. As I've said before, it is SO tough to get someone to lime your story the most out of 40-60 great entries...very hard odds.

 

[Juliana]

Jumping in a bit late here; personally I don't mind the tricksier themes/genres, they can be a lot of fun. But I find that when we have a 'brain-teaser' month hot on the heels of another brain-teaser month it can feel a little daunting. Sometimes it's nice to have an open spec fic genre. I know when I got to choose the challenge the mods messaged me and quietly suggested it might be good to have an open spec fic month, and I was happy to go along with that as we'd had a succession on tricky genres just before that.

 

[Culhwch]

Even if new members were lurking, they'd have to lurk a good while in order to pick up who's winning on a regular basis, or do a lot of back-tracking, and I really can't imagine they'd do that or bother reading through and interpreting the stats thread before entering.

Well, they could just look at the first post of the honour roll for the seventy-five, where winners (and themes and genres) are handily listed....

 

[Juliana]

Well, they could just look at the first post of the honour roll for the seventy-five, where winners (and themes and genres) are handily listed....

And thank you very much Cul for doing such a fabulous job with the honour rolls.

 

[The Judge]

I'd forgotten you'd done that list! I was thinking they'd have to read down all the entries and jot down the names.

We shall have to kidnap some newbies, sit them in the Staff Room Special Chair (the one with the lights and spikes), and grill them as to exactly what threads they've looked at in the Challenges sub-forum.

 

[Phyrebrat]

As for challenge fatigue, I do think that may well be a factor, which is one reason why we refused to make the 100 worder official and did not want it running in any month where the 75 and 300 are both in progress. I will also say, and this is my personal opinion only, that I have never thought that having a third challenge running on a regular basis was a good idea.

I would echo this sentiment and add to it with the Secret Santa workshop quarterly activity (I'm reluctant to call it a challenge as such, as the real challenge is guessing who wrote which excerpt). When I joined, I entered into the challenge spirit and have a rather good (I think) record for entering. Tudorpunk was hard, as was this month's and there have been other stinkers but as Harebrain implies, they're called challenges for a reason. The only one I can remember missing due to creative desertion was the Classic Sci-fi/Invasion one. It's a genre I love to watch/read but my mind is pretty rubbish at coming up with ideas in that area!

Regarding the encouragement of participants; Perp, Victoria, Starbeast and DG's reviews are incredibnly encouraging and I love the effort these four make. I especially marvel at Perp's comprehensive and rigorous efforts, Victoria's timeliness, SB's encouragements and DG's wit. If those boons are not enough to make people continue to enter - or at least engender a sense of community participation - then I don't know what is! When we have a winner we all log in and make an effort to congratulate that person - however ancient they are (I'm talking membership, of course <cough cough> ) and finally we have TJ's exhaustive stats. ETA: And Cul's lap of honour list! (just saw your post, Cul, apologies for the omission!)

Whenever I crit a new member's work in Critiques, I always refer them to the challenges as a way of honing their skills. I will bang on about this till the cows come home - participation in the challenges has been one of the most important factors in improving my writing.

(which has, sadly, become a bit common recently)

Hurrah! I love when you don't enter! More of this, please

pH

 

[The Ace]

Sorry guys, I appear to've made a bit of a tw*t of myself. For some reason, I don't remember the PM, but the fault was mine, not yours.

 

[Cat's Cradle]

This seems like the perfect thread to ask something I've wondered about for a long time. It's in reference to word-count disqualification...the upper limits for word counts couldn't be clearer for these challenges (they're right in the titles)--we have the 75-Word Challenge, and the 300-Word Challenge. And it states clearly in the rules that stories going over these limits will be disqualified from that challenge. But disqualification has always seemed so harsh to me (though I understand there should be some consequence for going over the word limit). I feel soooo bad for anyone whose story is disqualified from a challenge (and have wondered--as with The Ace--if people who have been disqualified for this reason are less likely to enter future contests).

I would like to ask whether consideration has ever been given to a different sort of negative consequence for breaking this rule...a penalty measured in words, instead of in disqualification. Here's what I have in mind: with the 75-Word Challenge, as an example, if someone goes over the upper limit, they would incur a 5-word penalty, and have 24 hours to re-submit their corrected story (less time, of course, on the last day of the challenge). If they go over the new limit (70 words) the story would be permanently disqualified. (Perhaps the penalty could be 15 words for the 300 Worder...something that would be felt.) At least this way the person who's gone over the limit can still participate in the challenge, and they have the additional challenge of telling their story with fewer words (another incentive to be extremely careful when doing their word count).

I guess that the reason for disqualification might be the thought that the person going over the limit might have an unfair advantage with voting, because anyone who might have read the story before it was removed (or shortened with the method I'm suggesting) would have seen a story perhaps more fully realized because of those additional words. But stories are removed quickly by the mods once it is learned the word count is off...I would think very few folks would have the chance to read any overly-wordy story before it had been removed (and even less chance of remembering the differences between the two versions of the story come voting/re-reading time if we were to go with a word-count penalty). And I think we'd, potentially, not lose for future challenges some people who might be upset that their story had been removed for word count. (Also, and selfishly, I know from personal experience that worrying about your story being over word count can be a nightmare, especially if you are a bit OCD, as I am.)

I know that we accept the challenge rules when we decide to enter...but really, I'm just wondering if a slightly friendlier rule RE:word-count penalties might not benefit the lovers of these challenges. Thanks for taking the time to read this long post! CC

 

[Phyrebrat]

Cc, I know you're just trying to think of a way to keep people participating, but I don't think falling numbers is related to the odd disqualification.

These are challenges and as such have to be... Er... A challenge the rules are far more flexible than professional subbing would allow. E.g If you've entered a pro comp to write a 1k story and go over, well...

I know I sound inflexible and tough-guy with my take on it - blame the teacher in me :/ but, notwithstanding the extra effort involved in the mod's workload, I don't like the idea of simplifying a challenge for something that is essentially a really simple rule to abide by.

pH

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Here's what I have in mind: with the 75-Word Challenge, as an example, if someone goes over the upper limit, they would incur a 5-word penalty, and have 24 hours to re-submit their corrected story (less time, of course, on the last day of the challenge). If they go over the new limit (70 words) the story would be permanently disqualified. (Perhaps the penalty could be 15 words for the 300 Worder...something that would be felt.) At least this way the person who's gone over the limit can still participate in the challenge, and they have the additional challenge of telling their story with fewer words (another incentive to be extremely careful when doing their word count).

I guess that the reason for disqualification might be the thought that the person going over the limit might have an unfair advantage with voting, because anyone who might have read the story before it was removed (or shortened with the method I'm suggesting) would have seen a story perhaps more fully realized because of those additional words. But stories are removed quickly by the mods once it is learned the word count is off...I would think very few folks would have the chance to read any overly-wordy story before it had been removed

No, that doesn't seem fair at all. For one thing, the Word Count Fairy doesn't always get a chance to count all the words on every story, and an entry might remain for quite a while before mods whisk it away. And even if people don't specifically remember the deleted words, those words might well have increased their understanding of the story, and that's not going to totally disappear from their minds. Suppose that that influences even one of the votes in a neck-and-neck race ... how fair is that?

Besides, if some people get a chance to rewrite their stories for that reason, then what about people who didn't use their entire word count and suddenly think of a couple of words they want to add that they think would make their stories better? A second chance at thinking over the story could, in some cases, allow the writer to write something more polished, even with fewer words. Should people who have broken the rules have a chance to revise that is denied to people who followed the rules?

Once you start bending the rules and allowing do-overs, then to be fair you have to bend them for everyone. Suddenly you have the Sort-of-Seventy-Five-Word-Challenge. And I think that if we start bending the rules selectively, we will lose more people on the grounds of unfairness then we lose because the occasional person goes over the word count and has their story removed.

And finally, once we start complicating the rules with different requirements for different circumstances, and penalties here, and second chances there, the harder it will be for people to remember what the rules are.

So as well-meaning as your suggestion is, CC, that is not going to happen.

 

[Juliana]

CC, as always you're being super duper nice, and it's awesome. But I find I agree with Phyre and Teresa, and also remember that usually those who go over and get disqualified laugh it off (if rather ruefully) and jump back into the fray the next time round.

 

[Parson]

My opinion is that we are over-analyzing the situation, and we are looking at the wrong issue.

First, if the challenges are dying it would approach certainty that the death would be from those who were regular posters who either quit one month or slowly drift away over the course of a year. In no month other the obvious first month, was there a majority of "newbies" posting.

Second, taking the newbies as important to the challenge we would also have to ascertain how many newbies come to the site in a given month vs. how many of them actually post in the challenge. If the number of a newbies to the site decreased by a third one month, and the number of newbies posting in the challenge only decreased by a tenth, then the challenges are actually doing better than the site.

Third, I am one of those who have been around the 75 word challenge from the very beginning and I remember the conversation was whether or not we might get 10 or 15 (or some low number like that) entries. We were all blown away when there were 42 entries that first month. Then we thought it would surely go down from there, but no, it stayed the same the next month and the following month it grew. So to speak about a death of the challenge because our numbers are about what they were the first year I would call premature.

But in my opinion there is one thing that has changed. There is much less discussion about the challenge as it goes on. Almost all of our discussion centers around the few people who do a fabulous job of reviews, and the rest of us thanking them for their review. I can remember talking about hidden messages in our stories, and challenging people to find them. I know I'm as much to blame as anyone. I used to read each story about as soon as it was posted and would sometimes comment on it at that point. I now seldom read the stories until it comes time to vote. I believe that the sense that the challenges are slowly failing comes from this more than from the actual numbers of stories posted. This slowing of enthusiasm might indeed signal a slow death for the challenges. But even if we should call them off today Teresa should be given our undying gratitude for thinking up the idea of a challenge and having the fortitude to see it into being.

Speaking for myself again. The challenges are the thing that I spend the most time doing on this site. (My work might indicate that I spend too much time doing it. --- When can a Parson say "There's nothing more I could do today?" --- Answer: Never.) I can also say that I've grown a little jaded about my chances of ever winning. The first 2 years I was often a contender, since that time I'm lucky to get a handful of votes in the entire year. I shouldn't admit it, but that has cooled my interest in the challenges. (Dumb as that might sound from someone who does not really consider himself much of an author.) But I know I wouldn't visit as much as I do if it were not for the challenges.

 

[Alex The G and T]

I offer a different perspective from a hobbyist. My entries have been sporadic, at best.

I seldom write anything on purpose. There has to be some sort of trigger.

Whether or not a specific theme or genre sparks a trigger tends to be less related to the "difficulty" of the theme than to extraneous influences. Tides, weather, my personal horoscope, biorhythms, the phase of the moon and who I have to bail out of jail this week have more influence on my muse than the theme of the month.

Mostly, however intriguing the theme, my best intentions to wreak havoc on a writing challenge get subverted by daily distractions.


(did I miss the deadline agaaaain?)