Falling Numbers -- Fewer Members Entering the Challenge

[Cascade]

My two cents, which I think will end up being worthless to the question at hand.

I found chrons whilst looking for a SFF writing forum. The whole 'requires hate' kerfuffle of last year piqued my interest in the fact that there was an actual community of writers, reviewers, bloggers and I wanted to engage with that community. to learn and motivate myself. As Victoria indicated after looking at a few this seemed the one closest to what I was after.

One of the reasons I joined was specifically for the writing challenges. I think I found the forum between the christmas 75er closing and the January one opening and I spent a few impatient days wating for Victoria to be declared the winner so the next one could start. When I did have second thoughts about entering, I was encouraged to put those aside and enter. I have found the challenges a safe and positive place to practice writing. A few comments i would make:

- I tend to post early in the challenge, and return every few days after to see what has gone up and read the reviews (which are great), but after 7 days or so i have shifted on to something else and won't come back regularly until voting is due. The long challenge time gives more opportunity to post but I think kills the momentum a little.
- some of the more experienced members often seem to post later. This can actually be a little demoralising, there is a little bit of a feeling like one is the support band for the headline act, who will come in and post something amazing 48 hours before close. This is probably more about me than anything though.
- I hope who wins doesn't impact the number of entrants. There have certainly been times when stories I didn't like have got votes, and stories I loved didn't get many (including my own) , but the 75 in particular only affords people one vote and those votes get spread thinly. People offering long lists, short lists, comments become really invaluable in this context. If someone honestly came in expecting to blow the chrons community away and win everytime and didn't, and stopped entering as a result, that person might haveto consider why they are writing or on the chrons .

 

[The Ace]

I submitted, went back to check, and found my entry deleted with a post a bit further down the page telling everyone I'd been disqualified.

A PM was sent, but I don't remember seeing it, and I found out only yesterday why it happened. I sweated blood trying to write the story and reduce it to the required length, and the whole episode left such a bad taste in my mouth that I kicked it into the long grass and never participated again.

Obviously there are other reasons for non-participation, but that's mine.

 

[crystal haven]

I'm not sure why I don't always enter the challenge every time, other than life getting in the way, but when busy, reading through every story and voting takes time too, and maybe newbies feel entering involves a commitment they don't want to take. Also, when the entries were less, one vote seemed adequate, but now, when entries are much greater I think more votes would be good. I know this has been mentioned before.

 

[AnyaKimlin]

Right now deadlines and trying to focus myself are taking priority. It is a shame because after rewriting and tarting up my flash fiction I've managed to get a few pieces published in some local anthologies and one won me a speech competition last year.

 

[Culhwch]

I submitted, went back to check, and found my entry deleted with a post a bit further down the page telling everyone I'd been disqualified.

A PM was sent, but I don't remember seeing it, and I found out only yesterday why it happened. I sweated blood trying to write the story and reduce it to the required length, and the whole episode left such a bad taste in my mouth that I kicked it into the long grass and never participated again.

Obviously there are other reasons for non-participation, but that's mine.

Would you ever consider trying again? I mean no offense, but that seems like a fairly ordinary reason to give up. The whole point of the challenge is to be challenging, after all! Cutting those stories down to seventy-five words is almost always a hard task, and it often does hurt because you feel like you're losing something, but sometimes at the end I've read the final piece and felt it was better for the cuts - addition by subtraction!

Also, as the moderator who PMed you at the time, I never suspected that you'd taken it so much to heart - if I had I'd have offered some words of encouragement then, and not waited so long to give them now!

Also, when the entries were less, one vote seemed adequate, but now, when entries are much greater I think more votes would be good. I know this has been mentioned before.

But as this discussion seems to have shown, numbers haven't gone up to any significant degree - they've stayed just about the same!

 

[The Ace]

Would you ever consider trying again? I mean no offense, but that seems like a fairly ordinary reason to give up. The whole point of the challenge is to be challenging, after all! Cutting those stories down to seventy-five words is almost always a hard task, and it often does hurt because you feel like you're losing something, but sometimes at the end I've read the final piece and felt it was better for the cuts - addition by subtraction!

Also, as the moderator who PMed you at the time, I never suspected that you'd taken it so much to heart - if I had I'd have offered some words of encouragement then, and not waited so long to give them now!



But as this discussion seems to have shown, numbers haven't gone up to any significant degree - they've stayed just about the same!

A bad story, I could live with. Some constructive criticism wouldn't have been a problem, and even zero votes would've inspired me to try again.

Instead it looked like you'd dumped my attempt, and couldn't even bother to speak to me before telling anyone who logged in that I wasn't good enough.


I know now that it was a misunderstanding. I don't remember the PM at all.

 

[Culhwch]

Definitely an unfortunate misunderstanding! My belated apologies if my actions seemed offensive or brusque at the time.

The wonderful thing about the seventy-five word challenge is that it comes around every month, so if you did feel inspired to dip your toes in again you've not long to wait!

 

[Remedy]

I came here for the challenges. I've entered all 75s & 300s, perhaps missed one, since I joined.

Sometimes the genre/theme combo doesn't speak to me and I throw in a half-hearted attempt, but I like to stick around to see how someone who knows what they're doing, does it.

What made me want to take part was reading Alchemist's winning entry: SEPTEMBER 2013 Searching by alchemist - Theme: Listening | Genre: Alternate History
My goal has been to write an entry, one day, that might equal that one. Of course I haven't managed it and maybe I never will, but it has been a very good driving force.

I have a few thoughts/questions about the challenge discussion:

Many have raised this before: The discussion thread is oddly lacking in discussion.

I think this is partly down to the sometimes-grey area of what we can say about our own entries. Plus, we don't want to get anyone into trouble by encouraging them to weigh in on a discussion about their entry.

Sometimes there might be a story that I don't fully understand or I'd like to know if anyone got the same interpretation as me... Would it be ok to ask everyone? - But put a note in the comment asking the author not to respond?

Does discussing one entry more than another, give an unfair advantage?

Do lists of "Thank you's" (of which I am guilty) kill discussion? Perhaps "Likes" could replace them?

I often wonder if some folk are not sure that what they'd like to discuss, is allowed, so they say nothing at all. This is the case with me.

 

[jastius]

I submitted, went back to check, and found my entry deleted with a post a bit further down the page telling everyone I'd been disqualified.

A PM was sent, but I don't remember seeing it, and I found out only yesterday why it happened. I sweated blood trying to write the story and reduce it to the required length, and the whole episode left such a bad taste in my mouth that I kicked it into the long grass and never participated again.

Obviously there are other reasons for non-participation, but that's mine.

I have always liked your stories, ace.
I think you have a firm grasp on basic structure and create a full story arc in your allotted space.
Your characters are vital and your plots are interesting.
You show an easy familiarity with the different genres.
And your pieces all have a definite voice. One all your own.
Really terrific. You know you can technically use a pulled challenge again?
After you fix the issues.

I think we need a chrons word counter, then you know the official count... But then I also think there should be a site leprechaun to grant us all three wishes....

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Um... would new entrants know who was winning? I do each and every Challenge, and I do all the stats, and without checking I still couldn't tell you who won what in the 75 worders last year, let alone in previous years.

And for the record (I've checked ) in the 75 worders the only person to win twice in the past year was, indeed, CC: in April 2014 (jointly with TDZ) and in March 2015, which -- with all respect to CC -- hardly smacks of domination! Jo, alchemist and Teresa all had a second win over the year; TDZ had her 4th win (13 months after her 3rd) and Hex her 5th (9 months after her 4th), but even if a potential new entrant had taken the trouble to find all that out, even if only by looking at the stats I've prepared, there were still 7 first time winners in the year, so why should it raise any misgivings about having no chance? And while I've been lucky in the 300 worders this past year, I'm far from convinced that would be known to anyone coming new to the Challenges, nor that it would actually put anyone off if they had investigated.

So, not having enough to do with my time... I went and explored this. I included tiebreaks as they're listed in the Roll Of Hounour Thread

I make it of 81 winners, 24 were by single time winners, 16 by double winners, 3 by thrice winners, 8 by people winning 4 times, 15 by people winning 5 times, 7 by 7 times and 8 for the Hare of wonder.

So, actually winners of 3 or more count for more than half the total winners. Now, personally, I think that says more about the quality of their stories than anything else but! I do know that, sometimes, it can feel like a parade of the same names.... (I'll duck. And I don't have an answer except that those names are the ones that drive me to do my best as I'd quite like to be in that position*)


*and before anyone says you are one of those people, my record in the 75 er is not outstanding - in 4 years I've won twice, which is lovely, and bomb more often than do well!

Ps @Remedy, I adore that story by @alchemist, too. In fact, I might have to hate him for writing something so good.

 

[The Judge]

I tend to post early in the challenge, and return every few days after to see what has gone up and read the reviews (which are great), but after 7 days or so i have shifted on to something else and won't come back regularly until voting is due. The long challenge time gives more opportunity to post but I think kills the momentum a little.

We regularly have people wishing the time away between the 28th when one Challenge finishes and the 1st when another begins, so if that time were made longer because each Challenge was, say, only 2 weeks long instead of just over 3, I'm quite sure the complaints would be even louder! The doldrums do tend to set in mid-month after the flurry of early enterers and before the panic of the last-minuters, but I don't think there's much to be done, save try re-invigorate the Discussion threads somehow. (As Parson notes, the threads used to be much more lively, but with the restriction on being able to explain one's own story -- which wasn't seen so much as a problem in the early days -- people tend not to say a great deal now for fear of being caught on the wrong side of the line, which is a pity.)

some of the more experienced members often seem to post later. This can actually be a little demoralising, there is a little bit of a feeling like one is the support band for the headline act, who will come in and post something amazing 48 hours before close. This is probably more about me than anything though.

As one who regularly posts late, I have to say I've never considered myself to be a headline act! (I'm trying to think who I might be. Please not let it be Mick Jagger.) I certainly wouldn't want people to think my late entering is some kind of ploy. I've always been a work right up to the deadline person -- school homework for Monday morning was done on Sunday evening. I struggle to get my act together, and ideas rarely come quickly; without the pressure of having only a few hours left, usually nothing stirs. There was some discussion at one point as to whether entering early gave an advantage, eg if some stories are similar, the first one might get extra kudos while the others appear derivative. Certainly it's often the case that someone will announce he's already got his shortlist ready and I've not posted yet, which makes me think going at the end is a positive hindrance, as my story might not get the same number of reads/depth of reading as earlier ones. But if you get demoralised posting early, try holding out and post late instead -- though I warn you it can be pretty demoralising to see brilliant stories going up when one hasn't got a clue what to write and you can see what needs to be topped!

 

[crystal haven]

I don't know how much I've grown as a writer, but the challenges certainly improve quality. It's getting harder to choose the story for the vote because so many are good. I have no doubt the challenges help to hone our writing skills.

 

[farntfar]

As someone who generally posts early (because if I reread it too often before posting I'll probably try to improve it and actually acheive the opposite) I've always thought that posting late must be a good idea because the surprise is still fresh as people vote.

To be honest, what I really think is that which ever you do, post early or late, it will be easy to imagine its the wrong strategy.


I also won't read the other entries (and increasingly even the discussion) before I've finished my entry, and then only read through the other entries just before posting to make sure I haven't telepathically nicked someone else's idea.

Oh and P.S. Please don't shorten the entry period.

 

[Juliana]

I had a couple of months where I didn't enter and later regretted it; even if the theme or genre looks hard, or I've had a month with almost no recognition for an entry I was particularly proud of, dusting myself off and trying again has become an important writing exercise in never saying no, whatever the difficulty.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

But anyone who feels that they are at a disadvantage for posting early can just hold their stories back until the last day. Although I realize that's easier said than done, if the story is finished.

 

[alchemist]

I came here for the challenges. I've entered all 75s & 300s, perhaps missed one, since I joined.

Sometimes the genre/theme combo doesn't speak to me and I throw in a half-hearted attempt, but I like to stick around to see how someone who knows what they're doing, does it.

What made me want to take part was reading Alchemist's winning entry: SEPTEMBER 2013 Searching by alchemist - Theme: Listening | Genre: Alternate History
My goal has been to write an entry, one day, that might equal that one. Of course I haven't managed it and maybe I never will, but it has been a very good driving force.

<snip>

Do lists of "Thank you's" (of which I am guilty) kill discussion? Perhaps "Likes" could replace them?

I often wonder if some folk are not sure that what they'd like to discuss, is allowed, so they say nothing at all. This is the case with me.

Wow! Such praise! Thank you very much Remedy (and springs too). I am both honoured and humbled that something I wrote serves as an inspiration. But I also have to say that your own stories are usually of a very high standard.

I've only entered intermittently in the last couple of years. That's mostly due to my motivation for all writing wavering, but there are some Chrons-specific factors too. 2-3 years of constant entering had worn me down a little -- some months I felt my stories were stale, my style becoming formulaic. For a while I wrote entries very differently (e.g. a cyberpunk version of the Lord's Prayer) just to keep up my motivation. It often takes a novel theme or genre to get me going now (I tried this month, but just couldn't complete my two ideas into a story), but I presume the opposite is true of newbies -- they might want something familiar to give them the courage to dip their toe in the water. Overall, though, I don't think it's a crisis. Perhaps numbers were abnormally high in the middle. As long as SOME new people join, the challenges wil go on.

For the 300s, some images were quite samey, I thought, and didn't stimulate my creativity too much (e.g. sculptures). This month was a nice difference, so I was determined to come up with something.

 

[Hex]

re the discussion threads -- we're always safe discussing other people's stories and I remember a few months where we had fun with one of the entries (the month with steampunk/ toys we had a great time on the discussion thread).

 

[TitaniumTi]

I posted a few entries, then had a year when I was usually too busy even to visit Chrons. The combination of Conflict and Metafiction tempted me to enter the 75 worder, and I went on to enter the 300 worder again.

As a nearly-newbie, I think the greatest deterrent to entering is one you wouldn't want to change... the impressive quality of the entries. I might have been too daunted to enter if I didn't believe that making an effort is the only way to improve.

 

[Perpetual Man]

Although I must be a constant presence in the challenges now, I missed the very beginning, but since I started I have not skipped either challenge (I was there for the start of the 300).

Although there are months where a particular challenge has not set sparks flying I've always tried to enter, but it has become a bit of an OCD type thing. If I stop I miss that perfect run from the moment I started....

I think for me the challenge is when there is a theme or style that scares the daylights out of me, because that is when the real challenge kicks in - feeling out of my depth but still managing to get something in is always a challenge.

Although it has been banished to the point of 'we dare not speak it's name' the classic challenge that Chris set, way back in the day is probably my favourite. It stretched everybody across the challenge and yet was so fulfilling that you managed to get something down and even enter it. This does not mean that I want a run of challenges in the style of '----' thank you.

I have no real recollection of when it was that I started to do the comments but as a whole I have enjoyed doing them, they help me when it comes to voting and the fact that people appreciate it makes it all the more worthwhile. (Thanks for mentioning it Phyre.) Every now and then I try and make them fun as well, like this month although I sometimes get hoist by my own petard. As I mentioned in the discussion thread next month one word reviews from me. Do you know how much that will hurt?

Jo brought up the amount of winners but that does not include the nail-biting ties, which would increase the spread a little more of people who won the mass vote, even if they did not go on to win the tiebreak.

I think we have had a few months recently with above average entries and would like to think it'll happen again.

Finally as the dreaded subject of ones entry being removed for being overlong, yes it is terrible and it can be heartbreaking, but I have found the moderators to have been very fair in their dealings. I don't want to get anyone in any trouble if they were not meant to do it, but on both (I think) occasions I over ran - both times by a word - a moderator took the time to contact me and gave me the chance to change it - as long as it was done within the standard editing window.

Given my inability to cut down on the size of my comments, which as has been pointed out are sometimes longer than the 75 word entries themselves, I do like the smaller months... although next month let's break the record. (See above)

 

[Jo Zebedee]

@perp - my listing took into account tiebreakers as they're listed in the roll of honour thread.