Falling Numbers -- Fewer Members Entering the Challenge

[Perpetual Man]

@perp - my listing took into account tiebreakers as they're listed in the roll of honour thread.

I know that I was just testing

 

[Cascade]

We regularly have people wishing the time away between the 28th when one Challenge finishes and the 1st when another begins, so if that time were made longer because each Challenge was, say, only 2 weeks long instead of just over 3, I'm quite sure the complaints would be even louder! The doldrums do tend to set in mid-month after the flurry of early enterers and before the panic of the last-minuters, but I don't think there's much to be done, save try re-invigorate the Discussion threads somehow. (As Parson notes, the threads used to be much more lively, but with the restriction on being able to explain one's own story -- which wasn't seen so much as a problem in the early days -- people tend not to say a great deal now for fear of being caught on the wrong side of the line, which is a pity.)

As one who regularly posts late, I have to say I've never considered myself to be a headline act! (I'm trying to think who I might be. Please not let it be Mick Jagger.) I certainly wouldn't want people to think my late entering is some kind of ploy. I've always been a work right up to the deadline person -- school homework for Monday morning was done on Sunday evening. I struggle to get my act together, and ideas rarely come quickly; without the pressure of having only a few hours left, usually nothing stirs. There was some discussion at one point as to whether entering early gave an advantage, eg if some stories are similar, the first one might get extra kudos while the others appear derivative. Certainly it's often the case that someone will announce he's already got his shortlist ready and I've not posted yet, which makes me think going at the end is a positive hindrance, as my story might not get the same number of reads/depth of reading as earlier ones. But if you get demoralised posting early, try holding out and post late instead -- though I warn you it can be pretty demoralising to see brilliant stories going up when one hasn't got a clue what to write and you can see what needs to be topped!

But anyone who feels that they are at a disadvantage for posting early can just hold their stories back until the last day. Although I realize that's easier said than done, if the story is finished.

I wasn't really complaining, and TJ, I certainly wasn't suggesting it was some despicable tactic aimed at maximising impact.

I do think that the comments about the discussion thread are interesting. It is certainly been the case that once the stories start going up, it is largely the reviews and the thanks for the reviews. The former are great and really encouraging. The latter though, sincere do tend to pad the thread a little. Accordingly I will be making the personal decision to thank reviewers through likes and PM's from now on.

Perhaps if we could get some guidance as to how far we can go in discussing a story pre close-of-voting, without crossing boundaries. I am not personally concerned if those discussions ultimately impact voting, if Buzz in the community sees a story get extra attention, then that is the way of the writing world isn't it?

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Anyone but the person who wrote the story can discuss it, speculate, praise, mention what they think are the sources (if a story is based on history, folklore, or mythology for instance) -- anything but criticism, because the Challenges are not for critiques, unless the writer asks for them afterward -- and so long as the writer doesn't join in, I don't believe there is any limit on how much discussion there can be about a story. We want discussion (it is written into the opening post of each challenge).

And I agree that too many thank-yous pad the thread. It would be better if people just "liked" posts where their stories are long-listed, short-listed, or voted for. Or (which I try to do) gather together thank-yous in one post that also contributes to the discussion in some other way. Admittedly, in my own case, those posts are often rather dull, like warnings that we are running out of time to enter a story or to vote.

But I think that most people are likely to contribute to discussions in progress, rather than start them themselves, so if someone gets things going by commenting on a story maybe others will join in. I think everyone avoids commenting on the reviews of the stories, because they don't want to appear to criticize or to discourage the reviewers, whose contributions are so welcome. But perhaps the reviews could provide a good starting place for discussion.

As insightful as the reviews often are, there are usually quite different interpretations of a story possible, which may (or may not) be closer to what the author intends. Different interpretations of the same story could provide a fruitful topic for discussion.

 

[Ursa major]

Speaking as someone who generally posts late, it's a combination of lack of inspiration and my natural procrastination. I often post within an hour or so of having an idea of how the story might go. (On more than one occasion, I've simply opened Word on the last day and hoped something might magically appear on the screen. I expect my 300-worder will arise by this method; it had better....)

And if posting late has had a positive impact on my votes, I dread to think how few votes I'd receive if I were to post earlier....

 

[TheDustyZebra]

My late postings are for the same reasons as Ursa's -- I naturally work up against whooshing deadlines, and I frequently don't even start to think about the theme or the picture until the last day or so. Once I set my brain to it, and something comes along, I just write it and post it. I don't think I've ever managed more than the occasional overnight-think before posting; I certainly couldn't hold off for days, even if I wrote it with days to spare.

I would claim that posting late tends to lead to fewer votes because people have already made up their minds before the end, but TJ is always right in there with me and would easily dispatch that theory.

 

[Culhwch]

I usually post late because I'm lazy - I won't sugarcoat it! But I do get the feeling (and without any empirical evidence to back this up) that I tend to get more votes when I post earlier.

 

[HareBrain]

But I do get the feeling (and without any empirical evidence to back this up) that I tend to get more votes when I post earlier.

Very droll.

Just to clarify (or muddy) the issue of discussion, it's not the case that you can never even mention your own story -- just not say anything that might make a reader go "Ah, I see now". So, saying you got the idea from your pet cat, or wrote it in five minutes, is fine, but saying you were inspired by last night's episode of Eastenders, because in that, also, the serial killer turned out to be a dustbin, that potentially expands a reader's understanding of the story, or adds imagery to it, etc etc. Of course, it's a bit of a grey area at the margins.

In the past, too, we have allowed people to hint that there might be something hidden in their entry, but nothing more specific please.

I wonder, though, how many people both read other people's entries as they're posted and closely read the various reviews of the other entries too? They're the people most able to get the discussions going, and I'm afraid I'm not one of them, now the novelty of the early days has faded. I also wonder if people are reluctant to discuss other entries because it feels unfair to those left out?

 

[Hex]

I don't want to get anyone in any trouble if they were not meant to do it, but on both (I think) occasions I over ran - both times by a word - a moderator took the time to contact me and gave me the chance to change it - as long as it was done within the standard editing window.

If we spot an entry that's over-length and it's still within the editing window, we'll always contact the writer so they can change it (Jo's done this sometimes as well, which is lovely -- it's always great when people look out for one another, so if you notice an entry that's too long, do let the writer know!). Unfortunately, sometimes people aren't around to change it, or no one spots that it's over-length until the editing time has passed and then the story has to be removed.

Just to be absolutely clear about this: once the hour editing window has passed, no one is allowed to change their stories, and that includes moderators.

***

I used to do quite a bit of chatting on the discussion thread, but alas, life and writing and work and things mean I don't get so much of a chance any more. Will try to do better.

 

[tinkerdan]

I haven't participated in these but the question brought to mind my own reaction to some other areas.
If I'm not imposing::
What I would suggest is that the some first posters might get the impression that they have little to offer and that would perhaps be that there is lot to be said about the winning post and maybe not much appreciation for all the little people. Though as I said I haven't done this and haven't even followed these.

What I have done is reviews and if I do a review for someone and they say thank you then I'm more likely to do another review for further work they post. If they say nothing I might wonder about it and if they say nothing two or three times I usually stop reviewing them as it seems that I don't have much to contribute to them. (That's based largely on the number of thanks that other reviewers receive from the same author.) And I think it's a fair conclusion to make.

Maybe the appreciation in not visible enough.

But once again I haven't been involved in this and you're perfectly welcome to ignore me.

 

[hopewrites]

I've been missing participating, so I'll chime in with why, in case anyone feels the same and doesnt have the time to say it.

I usually remember about the challenge when my phone bill comes due (I get a text at the end of the month and usually go "phone what? Oh end of the month... I wonder what the challenge was. I should go vote." You'll note by the number of times I've voted since I got distracted by life and wandered to other parts of the internet and planet how often this thought process actually gets me over in time to read the challenge stories let alone vote.) and upon missing the vote I reiterate to myself to check on the new challenge. (TBH Sometimes I'm so late for the vote the next challenge is up already, which means I dont have to remember to come back to check on it. Honestly, I think those are the only challenges I've checked.)

If I manage to make it back and see what the challenge is, then (no matter how many stories are up, though if there are already three pages + I feel like I wont do well. Not sure where I get that feeling from since I know that page number has no barring on anyone's voting strategy.) I'll try and get inspired. But if its anything I havent heard of, my eyes slide off the page and my mind wanders back to those other parts of the internet that have stolen most of my waking (and some of my sleeping) thoughts over the last year.

However, if I havent come up with at least the glimmer of an idea in 3 days (or what feels like three days, truly told some times I live three days in about 20hrs). Glimmers extend my likelihood of entering another 2 days, but if I havent come up with a story that holds my attention by then I give it up and (sadly) tend to forget everything till I get another text that my phone bill is due.

At which the cycle restarts "Oh no! I forgot to enter." or "Eep, I should go vote!"

A couple times I've come up with a story while relaxing and trying to get some sleep and I think. "Hmm that might make a good challenge story. I should sketch it out before zzzzzzzzzz" But most often I'm so busy with life, reordering my universe, and everything, that I feel the days need 42hrs not 24.

Edit: re-thanks I like use the like button when I wouldnt say anything beyond "thank you" and add a post when I have more to say than just "Thank you for the listing/vote/mention/thought"

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

What I would suggest is that the some first posters might get the impression that they have little to offer and that would perhaps be that there is lot to be said about the winning post and maybe not much appreciation for all the little people.

One of the things we are concerned about is that there is hardly any discussion of any of the stories. People do post their long lists and short lists, and first posters do sometimes make the list, although for most people it does take a few challenges to figure out how to get the most out of those 75 words. And then there are several people who do capsule reviews of all the stories, so the attention is spread out evenly there.

But if we went back to the kind of discussions we used to have, it's likely that newcomers to the challenge would get more attention than they do now -- because we would all be paying more attention to all the stories as the month progressed, rather than waiting to read them just before we vote. I know I've fallen into that habit. I'll read the first few out of curiosity, to see how the theme/genre are working out, and then somehow don't look at anything more until the last day or so. I will try to do better in the future.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

The odd time, as Hex says, I've glanced, thought that seems a little over, and done a quick check. More often, I've noticed a clanger and quickly pmed. But the first 300 I entered @Boneman did the same for me - I had fusted instead of rusted - and I greatly appreciated it.

I don't think it's against the spirit of the challenges? If it's a mistake repeated throughout I wouldn't do it, only if it's obviously a typo...?

However, I'm not checking in as much as I used to - voting took me by surprise this month - so don't do it as much!

One other thought - when we had the front page the 300 winning story went up which made the challenges more prominent. Also, you won a prize and had a specific link so could claim it (tenuously) as a publishing credit and link to it from other places and what not. Now you can only link to the thread or the roll of hounour thread which is a significant difference. The 300 takes quite a bit of work - perhaps a win needs a more tangible benefit? And if it's more prominent it helps the 75 noticeability?

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

I've never heard that Brian stopped offering a book as the prize for the 300 Word Challenge ... although it looks like it is no longer mentioned in the first post. Either that's a mistake, or I missed when it changed (or forgot it).

 

[The Judge]

Just to confirm, the prize for the 300 Worder is still a book of the winner's choice (limited to £10 at Amazon**) which Brian kindly buys and sends out after I've done the needful of liaising with the winner to get the necessary details. When I've remembered, I've encouraged winners to go onto the 300 Discussion thread to confirm what book they've got, in order to publicise it (and separately I've asked them to PM Brian himself and thank him).

The loss of the front page and having the winning story posted there is a shame, though I don't know that it brought any extra footfall into the Challenges all by itself. The only thing I can think of is for the winning story to be added to the Poll thread, as well as to the Roll of Honour thread. That would give it prominence in a place of its own, without its being diluted among other winners, to which links could be made with twitter/facebook/personal websites/whatever.

I had a look back when Glitch mentioned it, Teresa, and although mention of the prize was there in the opening posts for the first 5 or 6 Challenges, it got left off one month, then never re-appeared, probably because thereafter we've simply copied from the last one each time. It's easy to reinstate it for next quarter, though, in case it does make a difference.


EDITED TO ADD: At one point Gary was talking of producing a webmagazine. It occurs to me that having the winning entry given a half-page or something in a publication of that kind (if the winner was so minded, of course) would give a little extra publicity to both magazine and the Challenges.


** in the rules it's noted as The Book Depository, but Brian actually buys from Amazon, so I check prices at both sites.

 

[marmalade]

Interesting to hear everybody's thoughts on the challenges in general. As a newcomer, I found the challenges quite easy to find (this is before I even joined as a member) and thought having a go would be a good way of getting to know the community etc. I must say that I did find the 75 worder a little daunting as I personally was not familiar with the genre and was worried I'd end up writing something completely irrelevant.

Having said that I really liked how technical and unusual this challenge was as it contrasts well with the relative freedom of the 300 worder. It is challenging, as it should be, but not impossible, and perhaps pushing entrants a little out of their comfort zones and getting to try things they may not usually attempt is bound to produce some interesting results, plenty of room for discussion, and may even help people discover they really like a genre they never even knew about! I hope to enter it in the future.

As for considering/ reading entries I read what was already there after posting my own entry and then every new one as it came in. It only takes a few minutes, and one has time to muse over them individually instead of reading them over in bulk at the last moment, don't know for others, but it would definitely confuse me.

I agree with those saying that the 'thank you' posts are clogging up the discussion thread and will proceed to like or pm rather than post in reply to reviews etc.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

To be clear, I did know we still had the prize - but it was the prize combined with the front page that allowed it to be a publishing credit ie there was a fee and a link...
So, it's the loss of the front page that makes the competition of less value to aspiring-writers-who-don't-have-a-patient-bone-in-their-body. Not that I know anyone like that.... (looks in mirror guiltily. )

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

I wish there was something that was the equivalent of the old Chronicles front page. But Brian decided he wanted to concentrate on the forums, and I agree with TJ that the articles at the front end probably didn't get much attention.

 

[mosaix]

Personally, I sometimes find the less straight forward genres a little daunting when I first see them, but after a day or two and a little research I gradually warm to them. But I can understand it if some members are put off by them.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

With most unfamiliar genres, all you have to do is read the Wikipedia article (usually just the first paragraph or so) to find out everything you need to know, and although there is a perception that those who already read that genre will have an edge, the results don't necessarily bear that out. Sometimes the people who know the most about a genre write stories that get no votes at all. Still, the fact is that people don't read certain genres because they find them very unappealing, and they can't wrap their minds around the idea of writing a story in that genre. (Although Parson is a good example of someone who never lets that stop him, and like the good sport he is writes stories in genre after genre he never has and probably never will read.)

The problem with the Kipling challenge (which would be the problem with any other challenge of a similar type) was that it was all very well for those who were already familiar with his work, but those who weren't had to go and read quite a bit of it to come up with an inspiration. And while it can be a very good thing, in the general way of things, to be encouraged to read things by authors one hasn't read before, requiring people to do homework just to write 75 words is a lot to ask.

 

[Juliana]

all you have to do is read the Wikipedia article

Unless you're trying to wrap your head around Tudorpunk...