So it's okay to be a racist, but not okay to use a word with sexual connotations? <This thought gives me a head ache!>
The Word that Must NOT be Spoken
- Thread starter Mr Orange
- Start date
So it's okay to be a racist, but not okay to use a word with sexual connotations? <This thought gives me a head ache!>
hopewrites
Crochet Streamer
Growing up we were not allowed to use any word with expletive intonations. (Let alone say out and out curse words) so my adult cursing is rather bizarre. I notice I've been favoring "dork-faced baboon" lately. The d-k-f-b-b consonant combo expends all my excess energy, and the mental imagery of a baboon making derp faces sets me back towards positivity.
My view is, know how and why the words you use are working for you. Know how and why the words used against you work or don't work on you.
Words are not "just words" they are spells we cast at one another. And printed or spoken they work or don't work as we have programmed ourselves to respond to them. Some of that programming is done for us by our environment. I can't say I've ever heard that word except in anatomical discussions about whether it exists or not. So it has little impact on me, I've had less experience with it, or the thought of it to do my programming from.
I remember the first "curse" words I said. I was 8 and I fell on a rain slicked hill and said to my friends "wait up I fell on my butt" whoo did I think I was in for a beating when I got home! (I was still under the impression my mom was omnipotent as well as omnipresent, and so of course heard me) my friends thought it was the best joke ever that I said a swear word.
In retrospect I can easily see that I didn't even swear, not the least because "butt" isn't a swear word, but because I used it in its intended context.
I have met many youths who don't have potty mouths (what a delicious phrase that is) and would argue against coloring up the language of a character based on their age.
My view is, know how and why the words you use are working for you. Know how and why the words used against you work or don't work on you.
Words are not "just words" they are spells we cast at one another. And printed or spoken they work or don't work as we have programmed ourselves to respond to them. Some of that programming is done for us by our environment. I can't say I've ever heard that word except in anatomical discussions about whether it exists or not. So it has little impact on me, I've had less experience with it, or the thought of it to do my programming from.
I remember the first "curse" words I said. I was 8 and I fell on a rain slicked hill and said to my friends "wait up I fell on my butt" whoo did I think I was in for a beating when I got home! (I was still under the impression my mom was omnipotent as well as omnipresent, and so of course heard me) my friends thought it was the best joke ever that I said a swear word.
In retrospect I can easily see that I didn't even swear, not the least because "butt" isn't a swear word, but because I used it in its intended context.
I have met many youths who don't have potty mouths (what a delicious phrase that is) and would argue against coloring up the language of a character based on their age.
Ray McCarthy
Sentient Marmite: The Truth may make you fret.
Ok, just don't call the Orang-utan a monkey again, we are still redecorating.
Mr Orange
Rhubarb rhubarb rhubarb...
well this has certainly stirred up some interesting discussion (note to self: use "dork-faced baboon" in current WIP somewhere).
regarding the point that compared the word to including rape in a novel, i wouldn't have a graphic rape scene in my writing either. i think that rape in a book may, at times, be relevant, but it doesn't need to be graphically described. in a similar vein, there may be a horrible person in my book, but there are plenty of other ways to get across the character of someone that don't include using a word that many find offensive. and in fact, as has been demonstrated in this thread, the c-word is used by people across society so using it to make someone a "bad person" isn't going to work.
regarding the point that compared the word to including rape in a novel, i wouldn't have a graphic rape scene in my writing either. i think that rape in a book may, at times, be relevant, but it doesn't need to be graphically described. in a similar vein, there may be a horrible person in my book, but there are plenty of other ways to get across the character of someone that don't include using a word that many find offensive. and in fact, as has been demonstrated in this thread, the c-word is used by people across society so using it to make someone a "bad person" isn't going to work.
And just called the red traffic light a certain foul word. And I was doing so well with all my superior fol-de-rol
pH
Maieius
My-EY-shus
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This word has become frequent in the past few days since joining in this conversation and I've just a "little tidbit" to add.
Two nights ago, me and my housemates were watching a drunken argument in the street at 1 in the morning that lasted until 4 and this word was shouted A LOT. It didn't phase us, instead made us laugh as he kept repeating it because the word soon lost all meaning and became a joke. Though, the next day, one housemate said something to my other housemate (his girlfriend) and we both misheard him. We looked at each other shocked that he called her that, but he didn't call her anything at all and it was just the way he'd said "like that".
This made me think about the situation vs the shock factor. Watching the argument the night before, the word had little meaning from the start, if it had any at all, but when we misheard our housemate saying it, there was a moment of silent disbelief. It was one of those moments when you kind of confirm what you'd just heard with another person based on their reaction. He'd 'said' it in such a conversational manner we had to address it but I've heard him scream and shout it when he's angry and was never shocked at all.
I never thought about how derogatory this word was to women when we were watching the argument across the road, nor did I interpret it to be sexually harassing or anything related to what the word actually means. It was just a word he'd used in anger. But when my housemate 'said' it, it did become that. It was a light-hearted manner we'd misheard it in and it sounded demeaning, as though it was the norm to use this word against a woman and downgrade her to what this word means. There would be no reason at that time to use this word against her other than absent-mindedly put her down, like a natural instinct.
The point I'm trying to make is how the character saying it would see this word and how the person hearing it would. Does the person using it see it as social norm/acceptable or do they know the impact this word would make and say it for that reason? Is the person insulted/in the presence of the word affected by the word and it's use or does it fly over them just as any other word would?
However, the f-word can be used in pretty much every context and most other swear words, including c and s. Swear words are just in a category ready to pick from and are simply used as an [insert word here]. The function of the word is nothing. If it were taken from the sentence, it wouldn't be missed and is just used to further express an emotion. If this were the case, then the character using it won't be using it just the once.
All of this reminds me of a talk that was given to my class in college a few years ago. A woman from the BBFC (for those unaware, it's the company that decides the age rating of a film in Britain) explained to us how swear words weren't the defining factor, but the use of them. There was a film (I can't remember what exactly, but I think it was the Inbetweener's Movie) that was rated 18 because this word was used twice in two seconds between arguing boys.
"She's a c!"
"Stop calling her a c!"
And that was it, but the nature of how the word was used was what made it an 18. It was funny rather than shocking, and therefore used in a strangely positive way, despite it being an insult. However, there was a film with this word that was rated 15. I don't know the name of it but it featured Cate Blanchett portraying a journalist. In one scene, she asked a man a question that got him angry and he starting hitting her over and over and with every punch, he'd called her a c, so this word was repeated a lot. The nature of the word here is what gave it an age limit of 15, I think because of the impact it made in the film, which was clearly very negative. In the Inbetweeners, it had little impact, but with the other film, it was shocking.
All in all, it doesn't matter how people usually see this word because the way it's written and how it's used by which character in a certain situation will define whether or not the word has an impact. If you have two readers, one who hates this word in any context and one who isn't bothered by it at all, you still want them to both have the same reaction to it.
If you made it this far, have a drink on me. I really didn't expect this to be an essay, my fingers just carried on whilst I've been wanting a cuppa
Two nights ago, me and my housemates were watching a drunken argument in the street at 1 in the morning that lasted until 4 and this word was shouted A LOT. It didn't phase us, instead made us laugh as he kept repeating it because the word soon lost all meaning and became a joke. Though, the next day, one housemate said something to my other housemate (his girlfriend) and we both misheard him. We looked at each other shocked that he called her that, but he didn't call her anything at all and it was just the way he'd said "like that".
This made me think about the situation vs the shock factor. Watching the argument the night before, the word had little meaning from the start, if it had any at all, but when we misheard our housemate saying it, there was a moment of silent disbelief. It was one of those moments when you kind of confirm what you'd just heard with another person based on their reaction. He'd 'said' it in such a conversational manner we had to address it but I've heard him scream and shout it when he's angry and was never shocked at all.
I never thought about how derogatory this word was to women when we were watching the argument across the road, nor did I interpret it to be sexually harassing or anything related to what the word actually means. It was just a word he'd used in anger. But when my housemate 'said' it, it did become that. It was a light-hearted manner we'd misheard it in and it sounded demeaning, as though it was the norm to use this word against a woman and downgrade her to what this word means. There would be no reason at that time to use this word against her other than absent-mindedly put her down, like a natural instinct.
The point I'm trying to make is how the character saying it would see this word and how the person hearing it would. Does the person using it see it as social norm/acceptable or do they know the impact this word would make and say it for that reason? Is the person insulted/in the presence of the word affected by the word and it's use or does it fly over them just as any other word would?
However, the f-word can be used in pretty much every context and most other swear words, including c and s. Swear words are just in a category ready to pick from and are simply used as an [insert word here]. The function of the word is nothing. If it were taken from the sentence, it wouldn't be missed and is just used to further express an emotion. If this were the case, then the character using it won't be using it just the once.
All of this reminds me of a talk that was given to my class in college a few years ago. A woman from the BBFC (for those unaware, it's the company that decides the age rating of a film in Britain) explained to us how swear words weren't the defining factor, but the use of them. There was a film (I can't remember what exactly, but I think it was the Inbetweener's Movie) that was rated 18 because this word was used twice in two seconds between arguing boys.
"She's a c!"
"Stop calling her a c!"
And that was it, but the nature of how the word was used was what made it an 18. It was funny rather than shocking, and therefore used in a strangely positive way, despite it being an insult. However, there was a film with this word that was rated 15. I don't know the name of it but it featured Cate Blanchett portraying a journalist. In one scene, she asked a man a question that got him angry and he starting hitting her over and over and with every punch, he'd called her a c, so this word was repeated a lot. The nature of the word here is what gave it an age limit of 15, I think because of the impact it made in the film, which was clearly very negative. In the Inbetweeners, it had little impact, but with the other film, it was shocking.
All in all, it doesn't matter how people usually see this word because the way it's written and how it's used by which character in a certain situation will define whether or not the word has an impact. If you have two readers, one who hates this word in any context and one who isn't bothered by it at all, you still want them to both have the same reaction to it.
If you made it this far, have a drink on me. I really didn't expect this to be an essay, my fingers just carried on whilst I've been wanting a cuppa
Judderman
The Iceman cometh
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Obviously a lot of writers using these forums are working on Fantasy and sci-fi. What do people think of using made up languages for their swear words? I think it softens the impact but at least it stops the risk of offence to the reader. Generally the big fantasy epic writers don't use a lot of real world swear words that I can recall.
Judderman
The Iceman cometh
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If I had to guess which rating either of those examples would have received from your description I would have put them the other way around. At least one of the characters in the Inbetweeners example says the other should not use that word.
Ray McCarthy
Sentient Marmite: The Truth may make you fret.
Like Belgium?
Not a lot. Inscriptions and alien ettiqutte manuals might use made up languages (conlangs). Many lesser known conlangs exist, so no real need to invent.
hopewrites
Crochet Streamer
Oh that reminds me of when I used a "swear phrase" out of a fantasy I was reading. (Early teen) my friends looked at me like "your seriously weird to think that's a swear" because they hadn't read what I was immersed in at the time.
I think it was "by the shell" or something, but honestly I don't remember that part as clearly.
So made up swears, I'm all for 'em. I think it give added thought and dimension to a world to think about what words would develop as swears there, rather than just assume they'd use ourselves.
PartialMitch
Active Member
I think it is a fantastic idea, especially in fantasy or far-future type sci-fi. For starters, I always figure the people in such stories are not speaking English anyway. But in such cases, it would be wise to sprinkle the "alien" lexicon throughout the dialogue, instead of just to replace swears, for verisimilitude. I immediately thought of Farscape, a fairly imaginative show, though I wasn't a huge fan. The writers replaced not only swear words, but also units of measurement (i.e., frell was more or less the F-word; an arn was used in place of & approximate to an hour). That was pretty clever.
I've read a bunch of sci-fi with similarly made-up vocabularies (even mass-market stuff, like Star Wars novels;Zahn created kriff for use as an F-bomb), but many authors just avoid profanity. Real profanity in fantasy can be legitimate (ASoIaF), and with sci-fi it often makes sense (especially if the characters are speaking modern languages). But, like the depiction of sex, violence and so many other things, the use of vulgar language is all dependent on the author's style.
Maieius
My-EY-shus
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That's what I would have thought too. I'm worried I may be mixing up films, this was about four years ago now and thinking about it now, I'm wondering if perhaps I remembered it wrong. But I remember being surprised at the decision. If so, I've completely contradicted myself! I never knew the name of the journalist film, unfortunately.
Maieius
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I think it's a good idea, but it's got to be done carefully, I reckon. I can't think of any examples that are specifically swears but rather slang words and insults, which I would consider to be on the same/similar spectrum, and this is making me think of The Maze Runner and those slang words are just awful, imo. However, an insult like 'mudblood' is very fitting. But comparing the two, I think it would be because it's clear how 'mudblood' came to be an insult, but 'shuck-face'? What???
The only form of made-up swearing in a text I can think of is from Friends with Ross's fist gesture. And that's fairly well known now, I got in trouble once at school for doing it to another pupil and my teacher caught me and sent me out of the room for it.
Ha! Which probably shows exactly why there's no sodding point in showing mortal offence at the word. It's barely considered interesting let alone outre (although I still find it offensive.)
ratsy
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There are a lot of people that have no issue in constantly saying racial slurs either, and to them they are not offending anyone if they are saying in front of other white people. I would never say the words, nor would I use them in writing. But that is my choice. I would make the hated characters deplorable other ways, or imply the use of slurs, but never say them. I know that is a whole different topic, but along the same lines of where I draw the line for my writing.
I dislike it, in general. Why not just swear? If you don't want to swear, why bother? Though some exceptions. Mudblood made sense, even with Hermione's explanation (Dirty blood. Mud is dirty, I get it). It made sense because it was immediately obvious why it was offensive and who it was offensive to. Nonsense words like frack and frell chosen just for an aggressive sound come across as a self censoring cop-out to me.
Judderman
The Iceman cometh
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It could be that a lot of fantasy/sci-fi books are read by teenagers or younger even if written for an adult/mature audience. If you can get the idea over that someone is swearing without actually using what we recognize as a swear word in the real world then it may save the author from criticism or censor.
For example a character in a Malazan Book of the Fallen saying 'Hood's Bones' is unlikely to offend a reader, but you know that they are swearing (Hood is the god of death in the books).
For example a character in a Malazan Book of the Fallen saying 'Hood's Bones' is unlikely to offend a reader, but you know that they are swearing (Hood is the god of death in the books).
hopewrites
Crochet Streamer
That's the only type of made up swears I've come across.
I didn't know there were gibberish swears out there.
Shards, sharding, by the first shell, all relate to the pivotal role dragons play, and the sanctity of their eggs. Natural swears for that culture.
Mudblood another culturally derived swear.
I think with the rating issues mentioned above, it's the reaction to use that is being determined. In a violent situation the impact is one of force and violence. Teaching those who've never heard it before that it's a social taboo. In a comedic setting it's likely to get quoted, thus desensitizing those to its use, and inevitably dropping it down the list of socially unacceptable things to say.
The ratings boards are probably going on the idea that an older (and presumably more mature) individual will be able to respect the word in questions taboo setting, despite its comedic presentation.
This follows with the strange custom we have of not swearing in front of kids. If a word is not appropriate for all, why is it fit for some and not others? How are those lines drawn? Is it a mark of passage into adulthood to use Adult language?
This is where I think a lot of people get the mistaken idea that saying swears differentiates kids from adults. There are new YouTube's all the time of parents filming their infants and you kids using swears. These videos get hits both because people find them offensive, and because they find a comedic disconnect between what is said, and who is saying it.
Granted some swears came about because they were sounds-alikes to "stronger" swears. Dern Darn Damn progression comes to mind.
So we can get swears from words that sound like words we're not supposed to know/say.
There is a word for a type of oil mining that sounds like a swear. It may have been an Onamonapia for the sound the layers of stone make when being prized apart for oil. I don't know. But every time I hear it my brain tags it as a swear, when I know it's not.
I didn't know there were gibberish swears out there.
Shards, sharding, by the first shell, all relate to the pivotal role dragons play, and the sanctity of their eggs. Natural swears for that culture.
Mudblood another culturally derived swear.
I think with the rating issues mentioned above, it's the reaction to use that is being determined. In a violent situation the impact is one of force and violence. Teaching those who've never heard it before that it's a social taboo. In a comedic setting it's likely to get quoted, thus desensitizing those to its use, and inevitably dropping it down the list of socially unacceptable things to say.
The ratings boards are probably going on the idea that an older (and presumably more mature) individual will be able to respect the word in questions taboo setting, despite its comedic presentation.
This follows with the strange custom we have of not swearing in front of kids. If a word is not appropriate for all, why is it fit for some and not others? How are those lines drawn? Is it a mark of passage into adulthood to use Adult language?
This is where I think a lot of people get the mistaken idea that saying swears differentiates kids from adults. There are new YouTube's all the time of parents filming their infants and you kids using swears. These videos get hits both because people find them offensive, and because they find a comedic disconnect between what is said, and who is saying it.
Granted some swears came about because they were sounds-alikes to "stronger" swears. Dern Darn Damn progression comes to mind.
So we can get swears from words that sound like words we're not supposed to know/say.
There is a word for a type of oil mining that sounds like a swear. It may have been an Onamonapia for the sound the layers of stone make when being prized apart for oil. I don't know. But every time I hear it my brain tags it as a swear, when I know it's not.
Last edited:
Ray McCarthy
Sentient Marmite: The Truth may make you fret.
Maybe it's the hope the kids will turn out better. Adults do lots of things from habit or upbringing or culture that they don't really approve of for themselves (smoking, getting drunk, stealing etc)
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