The Word that Must NOT be Spoken

[Mr Orange]

Obviously a lot of writers using these forums are working on Fantasy and sci-fi. What do people think of using made up languages for their swear words? I think it softens the impact but at least it stops the risk of offence to the reader. Generally the big fantasy epic writers don't use a lot of real world swear words that I can recall.

i think this works if you choose the right "swear word". i remember reading The Passage by Justin Cronin and the swear word "fliers" started cropping up in the post-apocalyptic world. it was such a nothing word that it had almost no impact - like a 5 year old's version of a swear word. i realised later that it was a replacement for the f-word that presumably some editor had thought it wise to use to avoid offending the sensitive audience. the reason i figured this out is that the editor obviously got lazy or distracted at some point as the f-word crept back in towards the end of the book! the made up swear word didn't have nearly the same impact as the f-word, but then the story was no worse for having it in. in fact, it actually gave an indication of the isolation of this community that had made up their own swear words (and maybe that was actually what it was meant to do and i just missed it!)

Ha! Which probably shows exactly why there's no sodding point in showing mortal offence at the word. It's barely considered interesting let alone outre (although I still find it offensive.)

i don't personally think there is any reason to show offence at the word. but people still do, so i also don't think it's necessary to pepper a story with it.

 

[hopewrites]

No I get that there are age appropriate things and age inappropriate things.

I can't imagine I'll forget the conversation I had with my son about swears. We had just come home from shopping together, and before we got out of the car he said in a super serious voice "mom. I think I want to ask you something."
He was concerned he would say a swear word because he didn't know what they were. So I went down the list of all the ones I thought he might have heard and what they meant, and why they were offensive and to who.

Tbh he tuned me out halfway through the list because it was obvious to him that his concern was unfounded. But he thanked me for taking the time to explain them and give him general guidelines for how to avoid them. "Pretty much if it's a body part that no one is supposed to see, or something that comes out of your body, or a word used for sex, it's probably a swear to someone. If it's a word your useing to make someone feel bad, you probably shouldn't say it."

 

[Boneman]

One Christmas, a family were all sitting in mummy and daddy's bed opening the stockings that Father Christmas had brought. Daddy had a big book all about Motorcycles, which he adored. The youngest son, who was seven, started looking through at the big shiny pictures, and then said conversationally: "Harley F***ing Davidson." Mummy and Daddy went ape, telling him never to use that word, it was horrible and offensive. And the little boy pointed at a picture in the book of a man wearing a Tee-Shirt, with that inscription. The little boy hadn't known that word was a nasty one to use, but he sure as hell did now!

True story, must remember to bring it up at son's wedding...

 

[HareBrain]

For example a character in a Malazan Book of the Fallen saying 'Hood's Bones' is unlikely to offend a reader, but you know that they are swearing (Hood is the god of death in the books).

He does oaths very well, I think -- they come across as natural and help to give depth to his world. I was thinking about this yesterday, and realised that I couldn't remember coming across any strong real-world swearing in his books, but its lack doesn't seem at all strange or make the books feel unrealistically polite.

 

[Nick B]

As well as its sound, the word is a cypher for misogyny, as are most euphemisms for female genitals. The word strips a woman of power and dignity by a) distilling and defining her entire gender to her sexual organs, effectively reducing her to a side dish for men; and b) making something natural to women an insult, the lowest of the low, and loathsome.

pH

To turn that around though, how is it any different to using male genitalia swear words? If anything, the words pr**, co**, di** and others are used more frequently and with equal venom.
Is it less offensive to call a man a pr** than a woman a c***? If so, why?

 

[Ray McCarthy]

No.

 

[Kerrybuchanan]

I remember my very innocent autistic eldest daughter at the dinner table one evening, when she was about 7 years old, when my (really, really strait-laced) mum was with us.

Katrina: Mummy?
Me: Yes, Katrina.
Katrina: I know what the F-word is.
Me (rabbit in the headlights): Oh?
Katrina: Yes. Christine* told me.
Me: (faintly) Oh.
Katrina: Yes. The F-word is Flip.
Me (internally): Thank God for Christine's common sense. Situation defused.

*streetwise neighbour's daughter, also 7

 

[hopewrites]

Is it less offensive to call a man a pr** than a woman a c***? If so, why?

It's usually less, I think it's because no one ever questioned the existence of said male genitalia.

When dissing, it's usually more insulting to reference female than male. b**ch is a dis but stud is a complement. Yet they both refer to the party getting all the sex in a group. "you're such a girl" dis that brings down, "be a man" dis that prods forward.

Why? In a patriarchal society where women were kept soft and closeted a way from what was deemed to be too much for them, it was better to be a male anything than a female anything. Think about the times when slavery was going on; it was better to be White Trash (someone without job, home, place in society) than it was to be a black business owner, and better to be Black than to be Native. (many natives claimed to be black so they would face the lesser persecution.)

Should that still be the case in a society where the one's genitalia (and what one does with them) are not supposed to count in the equation of personal worth? Probably not, but I think it takes longer for swear culture to change than awareness culture.

 

[Nick B]

Those words arnt used in the same context though Hope, a bitch is a female dog, used as a name for women who are unpleasant, or nasty. It is also used against men. A stud is a horse used for breeding and used for men who get a lot of sex.
I agree, we shouldnt use terms like 'dont be a girl' but there is nothing wrong with 'be a man' just as there is nothing wrong with 'be a woman'.

Sexism, like racism is an out dated thing that we should have outgrown as a species. Things have, and are improving though, that is a fact. So there is hope yet.

 

[Dan Jones]

Can't believe I've missed this thread until now. I presume the word we're all talking about is "crikey"??

 

[Kerrybuchanan]

I presume the word we're all talking about is "crikey"??

You're kidding! And all this time I've been thinking it was "crumbs"....

 

[Nick B]

Can't believe I've missed this thread until now. I presume the word we're all talking about is "crikey"??

Don't actualy say the word! Now you've done it.

 

[Dan Jones]

Slightly more seriously, my advice would be: know your audience!

I was waiting for my wife at the shopping centre a few days ago and whiled away a few spare moments in the book section in Smiths. I opened up a Martina Cole novel. Now I've never read any Cole in my life, and as soon as I opened it up the characters - tooled up Cockney villains and slags to a man - were effing and jeffing and c-bombing all over the shop. Doesn't seem to have done her any harm, though her audience is well defined, and probably use and expect the use of the language in that way in everyday life.

Similarly, Irvine Welsh, who is a world-class user of filth, and especially the C-Bomb. As VB said, the underclass happily bandy the word about as some sort of minor term of endearment, and then in the next use it as the epitome of snarling aggression.

GRRM's been mentioned a fair bit, and yes he does use it quite a lot but I'm prepared to be quite forgiving, given the setting. There's a great line in ADWD where Asha Greyjoy is called "that" and she muses (and I'm paraphrasing): it's funny how men like [insert jailor's name here] use that word to demean women when it's the only part of us that they value. Not all his characters use it: Dany doesn't, to my memory, and neither do some of the other 'nobler' characters - Jon, Jorah, Ned etc.

The other way in which I'm prepared to be a little forgiving is that the word is derived from the Latin "cunnus" as an anatomical term, so has some grounding in historical usage (somebody already mentioned Chaucer used the word). And to paraphrase Maud Flanders from the Simpsons: nobody who speaks Latin could be a nasty person.

Except Catullus, of course. He was an angry little man. Look up his poetry. Honestly. C-Bombs everywhere.

 

[Mr Orange]

To turn that around though, how is it any different to using male genitalia swear words? If anything, the words pr**, co**, di** and others are used more frequently and with equal venom.
Is it less offensive to call a man a pr** than a woman a c***? If so, why?

in a way, yes. i think dck is less offensive than ct (see i even had to use two smiley faces for that one!) but then dck is also less offensive than ck (see, did it again!). i think it may be the guttural sound of those two c words that someone touched on earlier. in a similar way, i think people would find twt or psy less offensive than ct. not sure where prck falls though (so to speak)

if you take the following sentence "don't be a _____" and fill in the blank with each of these words, i think you get a different effect depending on which you use. which might be the way it sounds of the underlying meaning that society has placed on them

as far as GRRM goes. i had no problem with him using the word at the right time, but i thought he overdid it. several times the use of the c-word pulled me out of the narrative or character because it didn't seem to fit

 

[Ursa major]

I'm wondering if perhaps I remembered it wrong.

Wouldn't the issue have been that the age-rating of the film was only reduced because the word was used twice (but in a way that actually pointed out that it shouldn't have been said in the first place)?

 

[Boneman]

There's a line in 'Inside Man' (terrific film btw...) when a character says to Jodie Foster: "You're a magnificent Cword" and it's because she's blackmailing him into doing something, and I flinch whenever I know it's about to arrive, because it's so unexpected, and so nasty. So in keeping with the character? Not so sure... Funny that, I've just remembered the scene in Silence of the lambs, when she first arrives at the cells, and Hannibal's neighbour uses it. There, it was in keeping with the character and it her acting, when she's made to repeat what he said is brilliant. Michelle Pfeiffer turned that part down...

 

[Locrian]

I find b---h more offensive a term to use tbh. Most of the usage I've encountered of c--t is equal in meaning towards men and women. Same for other genital based insults, though severity obviously varies between words. I find b---h more offensive on the grounds that it means different things to men and women, and the grounds for offending men are by comparison to a woman which I find far more misogynistic than naming body parts at people.

 

[mosaix]

The word itself is nothing, it's the meaning behind it that matters. If it's used as an insult in everyday speech and it's directed at me, or someone close to me, then I'll consider it as an insult and act accordingly - which may involve doing nothing at all. If it's written or spoken in a book or a film then I will judge its use on its merits as I would with any other aspect of the work.

The word was used sparingly in the film In Bruges and I thought it was done at just the right moment and with just the right effect.

 

[Dan Jones]

In Bruges - what a film. And yes, it can be very funny if used with skill and in the right context.

Edit: yes, Boney, in SOTL it was used really effectively by Miggs to sinister effect, especially when Lecter gets Clarice to repeat it, showing her vulnerability. It's important in Lecter's eyes she does this. It makes him respect her. And, of course, Lecter convinces Miggs to swallow his own tongue afterwards. You know, for being so rude.

 

[Boneman]

So: just seen Spectre. If you've not seen it, don't highlight the spoiler here, because it will spoil your enjoyment of the film, but's it's apposite to this thread. There's a character established in the film, who is head of Communications, therefore known as "C". He turns out to be a bad guy, and in a confrontation between him and "M" at the end, C says (holding a gun on him) "Now we know what 'M' stands for - Moron." Pulls the trigger, and 'click'. M then says "And we know what "C" stands for" Cue laughter from quite a few men in the audience, who thought they knew... ie this thread word, then M opens his hand with all the bullets in it and says "Careless." Got another laugh. I'm pretty sure it was intentional, but I'd have to ask the scriptwriters, all of them.

Here's a good swear word for male genitalia: Gubernaculum. "You pathetic gubernaculum, you!" I'll let you look it up...