Discussion thread -- June 2016 75-word Writing Challenge

[Ray McCarthy]

Is it 'this thing exists because of logic' (sci fi) vs. 'this thing exists just because' (fantasy)?

No.
There is fantasy that maybe has one unlikely premise and is entirely logical. Most SF isn't actually too hot on logic or science. It's not as simple as Magic based or Science based either. There are two non-logic sub genre of fantasy; stories that don't worry about logic (Prince turned into frog) or stories that deliberately set out to subvert logic.
There are stories that are definitely SF and ones definitely fantasy, there are ones that have both and ones hard to decide.
Larry Niven & A. C. Clark both commented on the beholder's viewpoint, that something can appear to be magic and isn't and vice versa to the characters. Sometimes it's done so the reader isn't sure.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

Shape-shifters be a sci-fi or fantasy subject

usually Fantasy, but it's actually possible even in a hard SF context and common enough in TV/Cinema SF and space Opera (Babylon 5, DS9 etc), Dancer's Luck series (Ann Maxwell).
Shape shifting can be one or two words and is one of the most common magics in Celtic Myth.

 

[Heijan Xavier]

Two words, I'd consider it fantasy.

usually Fantasy, but it's actually possible even in a hard SF context and common enough in TV/Cinema SF and space Opera (Babylon 5, DS9 etc), Dancer's Luck series (Ann Maxwell).
Shape shifting can be one or two words and is one of the most common magics in Celtic Myth.

Well I'm getting mixed reviews from reliable sources, especially the one guy's brother's employer's sister. Mods...? a few extra words are golden in this arena.

 

[Heijan Xavier]

i used to serve with a guy who had a brother that worked for this one lady, whose sister used to write shapeshifter fantasy - one word.

Yes, one word without the hyphen.

Don't know why these didn't show up last post.

 

[The Judge]

Would Shape-shifters be a sci-fi or fantasy subject. Also, would that be one word or two?

Asking for a friend.

If you -- or a friend -- are worried about word count, always come to one of the mods for a definitive answer, since we're the ones who make the decisions. As you can see, you can get conflicting advice here in the Discussion thread. If you don't want to trouble a mod, or there's no time for an answer before you need/want to post, then always err on the side of caution, just in case.

Anyway, traditional dictionaries (Collins online and the OED) give it as shape-shifter with a hyphen, but it seems contemporary usage (and probably particularly US) is moving towards its being spelt as a single word. Either way, it would count as one word for Challenge purposes.

As to the SF or fantasy question, that's your/your friend's call -- whether something comes into a genre is always subjective when it comes to voting, so we never make rulings on that kind of thing.

 

[Parson]

(I see @The Judge has made the shape-shifter controversy clear while I was writing. No need to write on that)

But I have an observation and a question. In last month's 75 thread there was some discussion about "dark" stories doing better. As I recall the winners over the past years I don't think that dark stories have done better because they are dark, but rather because there are so many of them. It has long been my contention that posters of this forum (and from that I deduce writers of S.F. and Fantasy in general) write more often about the "dark" side of things. I wonder if that is because the "dark" side is more interesting? I know that I've heard many writers say that writing villains is "more fun" and some times "easier" and often "more interesting" than heroes. Or if the "dark" side gets written about more often because it is a fairly easy source of emotions to tap into.

For myself I find heroes much easier to read and write about than than the "dark" side because the rational of a truly evil person escapes me entirely. Why would someone intentionally make life harder for someone else? Why would someone find pleasure in someone else's pain? Why wouldn't someone jump in and do their best to help someone out?

(Parson sits back and wonders if everyone will think him in possession of something less than adequate intelligence.)

 

[Ray McCarthy]

It has long been my contention that posters of this forum (and from that I deduce writers of S.F. and Fantasy in general) write more often about the "dark" side of things. I wonder if that is because the "dark" side is more interesting?

Probably sells better?
I prefer not dark and HEA rather than tragedy. I think though a short with a dark twist at end has a lot impact. Unexpected humorous punch line is good but harder to get right.
I wonder is it that "dark" is just easier for most people, or that "light" can seem too lacking in impact and emotion?

 

[sinister42]

Join me, and together we will rule the chrons as father and son!

 

[hopewrites]

Parson, my assumed answer to your questions has long been that it's an anti-happily-ever-after movement.
Many of us grew up on stories where bleak things happened (MC's parents died or tried to kill them, they are banished off on some quest or another, you know that conflict stuff that moves a plot out of once upon a time and into the story...) but ended (sometimes dissatisfactoraly) with "and they all lived happily ever after."

Then as we grew up we realized (some of us *coughme* belatedly) that life doesn't have happily ever afters. Prince Charming has ptsd after slaying the dragon, Cinderella keeps offending the servants by being independent and self sufficient, the little mermaid is ******* seafoam!!!

On top of that, we don't see "bad guys" getting much if any comeuppance.

The world is seen to exist in a series of grey areas.

So we get stories with anti-heroes, from the bad guys perspective, or that are just dark overall, because our view of the world has darkened, we worry about being someone else's bad guy, our armor is tarnished and dented which makes us feel more anti-hero than knight in shining armor...

On top of that 75 isn't many words to establish a world, set up a conflict, bring it to a climax, and provide resolution. I can shortcut by going dark which combines world building with conflict, and doesn't require much in the way of resolution.

*shrug* it's an unfortunate fact of our reality that hurt-people hurt people.
It's an unfortunate fact that the world we leave our children is not better, but worse than the world we received from our parents.
It's a hard fact that we can't let these unfortunate facts depress the hell out of us.

It takes a tough cookie to be truly positive this day and age.

 

[Cathbad]

Wow! I only had to cut 88 words this month!

 

[Parson]

Parson, my assumed answer to your questions has long been that it's an anti-happily-ever-after movement.
Many of us grew up on stories where bleak things happened (MC's parents died or tried to kill them, they are banished off on some quest or another, you know that conflict stuff that moves a plot out of once upon a time and into the story...) but ended (sometimes dissatisfactoraly) with "and they all lived happily ever after."

Then as we grew up we realized (some of us *coughme* belatedly) that life doesn't have happily ever afters. Prince Charming has ptsd after slaying the dragon, Cinderella keeps offending the servants by being independent and self sufficient, the little mermaid is ******* seafoam!!!

On top of that, we don't see "bad guys" getting much if any comeuppance.

The world is seen to exist in a series of grey areas.

So we get stories with anti-heroes, from the bad guys perspective, or that are just dark overall, because our view of the world has darkened, we worry about being someone else's bad guy, our armor is tarnished and dented which makes us feel more anti-hero than knight in shining armor...

On top of that 75 isn't many words to establish a world, set up a conflict, bring it to a climax, and provide resolution. I can shortcut by going dark which combines world building with conflict, and doesn't require much in the way of resolution.

*shrug* it's an unfortunate fact of our reality that hurt-people hurt people.
It's an unfortunate fact that the world we leave our children is not better, but worse than the world we received from our parents.
It's a hard fact that we can't let these unfortunate facts depress the hell out of us.

It takes a tough cookie to be truly positive this day and age.

I think you've put your finger on something here. I guess that this is where religious faith comes in. You are right. Life doesn't have any fairy tale endings. I've said in wedding ceremonies from time to time that the biggest lie in a fairy tale comes at the end where we read and "they all live happily ever after." (The maid of honor was angry with me once, because she had written out her toast to the bride and groom around that phrase.) But faith tells me not to expect everything to come out right in this life, but that there is a time and a place where justice is done, and evil is ultimately defeated. Maybe that's why I like stories that end with hope and a new life.

But that sorta raises another question: Shouldn't literature often have a mindset of ultimate justice ultimately? Do we do any favors for anyone when we write and believe something that looks a lot like nihilism as the ultimate direction of our life?

Are you complimenting me when you say "It takes a tough cookie to be truly positive in this day and age?" Because I like to think that when all the chips are down and posers have been pushed to the side that I am still pretty positive about this world.

 

[Cathbad]

Because I like to think that when all the chips are down and posers have been pushed to the side that I am still pretty positive about this world.

I like that!

My sister often gets frustrated with me, because, she believes, I don't take things serious enough. Not true: I just don't let anything get me down. Life's thrown me a lot of curves, but I'm still a happy person, and believe that Good always, eventually, prevails.

I hope my longer stories reflect that.

 

[Mr Orange]

unfortunately good does not always prevail. and sometimes only after a whole lot of suffering. the happily ever after stories are truly fantasy.

i can understand your lack of understanding of truly "bad" people Parson, i fail to understand the type of person that can heap misery on someone else either. however, everyone is flawed, even heroes, and i like to read and write real people and real stories where the baddie doesn't always get what is coming to him/her and the goodie doesn't always live happily ever after.

that's not to say i don't think everyone should try their best to be good people and be positive about life, even when it piles nastiness on top of you.



oh and BOOM... I'm in.

Sorry

Edit: Cathbad i read "carousels" in your first line as "arousals". changed your story completely for me!

 

[Victoria Silverwolf]

reiver33 -- This moody tale offers a dark and vivid image of a coming apocalypse.

Luiglin -- With great comic skill and wordplay the author creates an amusing burlesque.

cab -- In this imaginative fantasy we are reminded to be careful of what we wish for.

Cathbad -- With a sharp eye for human foibles, the author provides a satiric look at economic realities.

Mr Orange -- The comic appeal of this delightful romp is enhanced by its perfect conclusion.

 

[hopewrites]

I'm complimenting all of us who make the effort to make a place for Love, Hope, Peace, and all those other aspects of Positivity that the harsher of realities tend to edge out of others.

I've been down the slippery slope of negativity, I know where it leads, and just how long positive sparks can live at the bottom of that slope.

When I was down there, a friend pointed out to me that unlike some of the others he'd met at the bottom of that hill, I had a choice. And it was a dirty rotten shame I was choosing to sit down there. To prove him wrong I climbed back out, and surprised myself with just how capable I was of climbing out, how capable I am of sparkling, and why it's so goddammn important for me to stay on the up and up with myself.

I won't ever recommend someone fall to their own bottom line just to see how far they can rise. It's hard enough holding good ground when you've got it, no need to find out how hard it would be to loose it and then win it back.

So yeah. "Tough" because we don't crumble when things look bleak, "Cookie" because we do our best to highlight the sweetness that Does exist in this world, because we do our best to push what's bitter out of mind, and remind ourselves and others that it feels better to be happy and grateful to be alive than it does to feel crushed down by everything that is not going the way we want/hope/believe it should.

 

[Zen Dragon]

Don't know why these didn't show up last post.

Shapeshifting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
If its on Wikipedia then it is at least one person's version of the truth...
And, it has been around since the days of Gilgamesh, which is the forerunner to fantasy
Also, my line about the brother yadda-yadda ... was tongue in cheek to answer one word for shapeshifter and realm of fantasy

 

[Zen Dragon]

Zen Dragon -- By creating a new genre which might be called steam fantasy, the author reveals a great deal of imagination.

Thank you for the poetic review.

 

[Dan Jones]

Good discussion, guys. If you excuse the phrase, Parson, but SFF (and all literature) is a broad church. There's room for do-gooder heroes and there's room for protags who are a shade greyer.

The problem with whiter-than-white heroes is that they risk alienating those members of the human race who carry their fair share of darkness. Which is pretty much all of us.

Maybe that's why I like stories that end with hope and a new life.

I think hopeful endings are much more powerful than "happy" endings, and there's a profound difference between the two. A hopeful ending is something we can all aspire to as humans; the pursuit of happiness, as the American constitution has it. A chance to get on. A happy ending is something where everything is wrapped up a little too neatly, a little too Disney. Hope is extremely powerful, arguably the driving force behind the entire human race. It's actually the main theme to a sci-fi short I recently completed.

And talking of hope...

I won't ever recommend someone fall to their own bottom line just to see how far they can rise. It's hard enough holding good ground when you've got it, no need to find out how hard it would be to loose it and then win it back.

Right there, you've nailed it. Loads of us have reached the bottom, or at least think we have. But fiction is there to reflect those feelings, show that they can be overcome. Fiction offers us a surrogate existence. SFF offers quite a removed surrogate existence because much of it (though by no means all) is second-world, but the human element remains.

Personally I'm all for a hopeful ending, but it only really means anything if the protag has been through the darkness to get there. You have to have light and shade, and that's the case even with the fairy stories and Disney films.

 

[mosaix]

As I think through this one I am realizing that it is the first one I've tried that is restricted to fantasy. I'm having a harder time with this than I thought I would. Every time I come up with something, I try to explain it, and that logical explanation defies the spirit of fantasy..... I think.

This gets me thinking. Is that the real line between sci fi and fantasy? Is it 'this thing exists because of logic' (sci fi) vs. 'this thing exists just because' (fantasy)?

I'm sure this has been hashed out before, but I would be interested to get your takes on it.

I'm not complaining. Like Stravinsky said, "Put yourself in a strait jacket and dance the free dance."

For me fantasy is 'historically' based and concerns things we have 'lost' - magic, unicorns etc. Science fiction is 'future based' and concerns things we have yet to discover - space flight, time travel etc.

 

[Cathbad]

unfortunately good does not always prevail. and sometimes only after a whole lot of suffering. the happily ever after stories are truly fantasy.

Name an evil man that has not died?

Yes, evil has its victories, but, if by nothing more than death, it is eventually defeated.

Edit: Cathbad i read "carousels" in your first line as "arousals". changed your story completely for me!