The Lord of the Rings - Second Age - Amazon Prime

I would prefer Amazon (or any of the other companies) to spent $1 billion dollars on 3 decent series in stead of betting on one horse and lose the bet with a series that won't bring what the audience was expecting after all the hype that's been created around it. It's a dangerous track on which they let their supposedly thoroughbred running, because of the unavoidable comparison with Jackson's LOTR.

Trailers and budget don't tell me much about the end-product. I'm just hoping it will be binge-worthy. But for the rest? I think a good spread of decent series are a much stronger, more durable weapon in the Clash of the Streamers. An unnecessary clash, as far as I am concerned. The more the merrier, the more diverse their content. But that's how the firms think, right; Competition is Bad, the world ain't big enough for the both of us.
 
Another thing: I don't know who the guy in the video is. He may know a lot about science fiction (which he says he prefers), he may be an online influencer that people listen to, and that is why the interview was filmed and spread around the internet, but whatever his qualifications otherwise, he does not appear to know much about Tolkien, fantasy, or movie making. Therefore, I don't think that he should be overly-influencing our expectations about the upcoming Rings of Power.

Here is another example of where he shows that he doesn't entirely know about Tolkien or what he was writing. At one point he was trying to think of the genre of LOTR and why, as a general rule*, he doesn't care much for it, he was reaching for the right term to use, and what he dredged up from the depths of his brain was "sword and sandal," which, sorry, is a completely different genre than epic fantasy. Tolkien wrote epic fantasy, inspired by the myths and legends of Medieval and Dark Ages western Europe. Sword and sandal is inspired by classical Greece and Rome, and is usually applied to movies with gladiators (hence sword and sandal) in Mediterranean lands, some centuries earlier than even the Dark Ages, and magic and magical races tend to be absent.

It's not a horribly egregious kind of mistake, but it does show that he's an odd choice to be asked to evaluate which movies are faithful to the spirit of Tolkien. As someone taking part in a discussion like this one, where he could interact with the rest of us, and exchange ideas, he seems like he might be a pleasant and intelligent person to share ideas with (and perhaps make some points that set the rest of us thinking, perhaps change some of his own opinions as he learned more), but as someone in a video which influences the opinions of others and worries the rest of us whether we might love or hate The Rings of Power ... it seems like a misguided attempt.

For instance, there is the quote from Jackson about not imposing his own ideas on Tolkien's story, which was certainly a laudable goal, and not having read LOTR or The Hobbit, this gentleman, while acknowledging that it was necessary to make some changes in order to adapt the story for cinema, believes that Jackson and his collaborators succeeded in staying faithful to the spirit of the work, which unfortunately (and if he had read The Hobbit and LOTR he would know this) was not always true. For example, the changes to Aragorn's character so that he would have a story arc that would inspire the sympathy of modern movie goers, that was very, very far from Tolkien's concept of Aragorn. One might explain that by saying that it was necessary to attract modern audiences who were not already Tolkien fans, but that argument is also an example of why Tolkien never really wanted to see his work adapted for the movies. Or take the architecture at Rivendell. I think the designs for Rivendell were beautiful and mystical and magical, and probably it was cinematically necessary to distinguish between Rivendell and, say, Hobbiton, but in the spirit of Tolkien? I rather think not. In The Hobbit, Elrond's home is more than once referred to as the last homely house west of the mountains—homely meaning comfortable, homelike—but the Rivendell we see in The Fellowship is too cold and ornate for that. As much as it appealed to me aesthetically, it chilled and disappointed me, so that even while I loved it, I also hated it.

And a third example: apparently during filming of the trilogy there were battle scenes of Arwen fighting side by side with other character, a battle-maid with sword in hand. At some point Jackson changed his mind about this. We have never seen stills or clips of those scenes, which have apparently been suppressed, and would not even know that they had existed if it had not been for some of the cast, notably Liv Tyler, telling anecdotes about things that were said and done between shots. But the point is, there was a time when Jackson felt that such scenes would be acceptable and in the spirit of the story. Whether someone else eventually talked him out of it, or he came to that conclusion by himself, he was not so much in tune with the spirit of Tolkien's trilogy that he didn't write and film those scenes in the first place. (However he came to leave out those scenes and write others to replace them, I wish the same thing had happened when he was filming The Hobbit, so that KIli's romance had similarly ended on the cutting room floor. But seemingly by the time they were filming The Hobbit, the great success of LOTR had made Jackson such an infallible figure that no one—including himself—urged him to rethink anything he wanted to do.)

I could go on, with other examples of things Jackson changed, some of which I think improved the films, some of which I think detracted, but in the end I loved those movies, and besides, he's not the one writing and directing The Rings of Power.

As for what we have seen of Rings so far, I don't know what to think. I don't like the shorter hair on the male elves, but that is my own personal aesthetic taste—I know of no reason why the men and elves of the second age should not have dressed themselves and worn their hair differently than the men we are are familiar with from the late third age—if, in fact, in was a choice made to distinguish them from the same or other characters in the later era, I suppose it was a good idea, even if it is not what I would have chosen (if they had all been wearing crew cuts I think that would have been a step too far for me, and I might not ever get over it, but still a matter of personal taste, not necessarily something they would have done wrong).

Galadriel as a warrior, again not a choice I would have made, but perhaps they will make it work. After all, we are seeing some of these characters thousands of years in the past of who they had become in LOTR. Those were centuries of war and tragedy and loss, so it makes sense that they would have been in many ways different people back then—I believe I would have been much more disappointed if they had gone through all that without being changed by their experiences (although in Galadriel's case, she'd already been through thousands of years of grief and hard life lessons by the beginning of the second age). So I am willing to wait and see. I figure if I let my expectations rise too high, even if it is quite good I may still be disappointed because it wasn't the marvel I hoped it would be. If I keep my expectations relatively low, and it turns out to be mediocre, I may fall in love with it out of gratitude that it wasn't worse. And frankly, I would rather enjoy it than not. If it's an outright disaster, I can stop watching after an episode or two, and I won't be any the worse off

But one more point I would like to make. When Jackson made LOTR he had a finished three-part novel as source material, a novel that had been through various drafts, revised, edited, and polished for publication. Jackson and his collaborators had all that, and still made changes (and some of them, in my opinion, ill-advised). But what the writers and producers of Rings are dealing with is an unfinished work. Tolkien had still not finished writing the story of the second age at the time of his death; it was incomplete; there are gaps that beg to be filled in (probably not the same gaps for all of us, and we probably won't all be happy with the decisions made even in those places where we agree that there should be decisions of some sort, but if they aren't addressed, we may all be united in thinking that they should have been). And that being so, I don't think it's quite fair to compare the two projects. Those who are involved in bringing them to the screen face different challenges, and many of those involved are different people with different ideas of what should be done. Of course they knew what they'd be facing, and knew that they would be criticized. I assume they are being very well-paid indeed. So no tears for them from me. But at the same time, I will wait until I have seen at least a full episode before I form any kind of opinion of what they have done.

_____
*He said, basically, "I don't usually care much for fantasy, so if I liked it, it must really be good." I have heard this kind of argument many times before involving other books and movies, and I have never quite bought it. Because it could go either way. Yes, it might be so wonderful that even people who don't usually love epic fantasy were won-over. Or it could appeal to people like him for the very same reasons why it won't appeal to long-time fantasy readers, such as many of us here.

Another thing he said, was that we know Jackson's LOTR was good because no one is talking about it, no one is criticizing it, or picking it apart and arguing about it. Well, I don't know where on earth he was when the movies first came out, or in the next several years afterward, but among the people I know—like the people who spend their time on sites like this one—we were talking about it plenty, criticizing it, arguing our opinions back and forth. We were talking about it a lot ... for whatever that means.
 
Another thing: I don't know who the guy in the video is.
The video is from 24th of February. So, around the time of first teaser trailer.

Chris Gore is a writer, comedian, author and television personality who has built a solid reputation as a hilariously outspoken voice in the entertainment world. As a teenager, Chris founded the brutally honest magazine Film Threat, which began as a fanzine while he was a college student in Detroit. As Film Threat evolved into a respected national magazine, he relocated to Los Angeles.

The print magazine was retired in 1997 when it was re-launched as a web site. FilmThreat.com found a huge audience online and was named one of the top five movie web sites by the Wall Street Journal.

Chris has appeared as a film expert on MSNBC, E!, CNN, Travel Channel, and Reelz Channel. He has also hosted shows on FX, Starz, IFC and G4TV’s Attack of the Show as the show’s film expert. His weekly movie review segment DVDuesday was among the most popular on G4.

He is also an author, having written The 50 Greatest Movies Never Made and The Complete DVD Book. His book The Ultimate Film Festival Survival Guide is considered the bible of the industry and is required reading at film school.

 
Sounds exactly like the type of guy I can do without. To put it mildly. But that goes for many people whose words are seen as gospel.
I think I once saw such a FilmThreat review. The tone used was...antagonizing. To put it mildly.
 
I'd expect something more impressive (and humorous) with those credentials. But perhaps he is brilliant when discussing topics about which he has more knowledge and background.
 
Amazon is to increase the price of its monthly Prime subscription service by 12.5% – or £1 – to £8.99 from September in the latest sign that delivery costs are rising.

The company said the cost of an annual Prime package, which includes unlimited deliveries for online shopping, access to its video and music streaming services and its Amazon Fresh grocery deliveries, would rise by more – 20%, or £16 – to £95, although this remains a discount on the monthly option.

Amazon said the rise in fees, which will be implemented as members’ contracts come up for renewal from 15 September, was the first since 2014 and came after a series of improvements in its Prime service.

“We have increased the number of products available with fast unlimited Prime delivery, recently added ultra-fast fresh grocery delivery, and have significantly expanded our high-quality digital entertainment, including TV, movies, music, games, and books,” a spokesperson said.

They added that Prime Video had tripled the amount of original Amazon content since 2018, with series including The Boys and The Terminal List, and UK-produced shows such as Clarkson’s Farm and Backstage With Katherine Ryan. The service has also added access to Premier League football and Autumn Nations rugby in the UK and will launch The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power series in September.
The price rises come despite evidence of waning interest in streaming services as households look for ways to reduce costs and find alternative entertainment now that the pandemic restrictions have ended.
 
To be fair, at less than £100 a year, for everything you get with it, it's still good value - much better than Netflix imho.

I did expect a price rise to coincide with this new programme, but I thought they might make it a bit less obvious and not have done it just before the show is about to air. Apparently they've also signed up in the future for Champions League games, so I expect another increase to happen then as well.

As I mentioned above, even those seemingly made of money run out of it eventually if they're not careful.
 
We thought the war, at last, was ended,” says Morfydd Clark’s elf queen Galadriel in the trailer for Amazon’s new Lord of the Rings series, but she really ought to know better. High fantasy thrives on tales of epic battle, but this autumn a different kind of showdown is taking shape. Rather than good v evil or elves v orcs, a clash of eye-wateringly expensive streaming series is on the cards, the likes of which we have never seen before.

At one end of the field is Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power, Amazon’s lavish, long-awaited prequel to JRR Tolkien’s hugely successful fantasy saga. At the other is House of the Dragon, HBO’s lavish, long-awaited prequel to George RR Martin’s hugely successful fantasy saga. In what appears to be a deliberate head-to-head, the 10-part House of the Dragon will debut on 21 August, two weeks before the eight-part The Rings of Power launches, which means the two series will reach their respective climaxes the same week. Who will be the victor? Do we have room for both? Or, in fact, either? And who has the most to lose?

At this stage, the final question is the easiest to answer. The most talked-about aspect of The Rings of Power so far has been its budget. It is by all accounts the most expensive show ever made. Amazon has spent more than $1bn (£820m) on it, including an estimated $462m for the first season alone. That works out at nearly $60m an episode. House of the Dragon looks frugal by comparison: an estimated $20m an episode. This is still at the upper end, though: the final seasons of Game of Thrones came in at about $15m an episode, Disney’s Marvel and Star Wars miniseries have cost between $15m and $25m an episode, and Peter Jackson’s original Lord of the Rings trilogy cost less than $100m a movie.
 
More recent stuff does not inspire confidence.

I am not impressed with Eminelf.
 
HareBrain, my understanding is that the elf cosplaying as Eminem is not Sauron, but a corrupted elf. That's what I've heard, anyway.
 
HareBrain, my understanding is that the elf cosplaying as Eminem is not Sauron, but a corrupted elf.
Middle-Earth Shadow of War - Sauron

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If the Eminen elf is Sauron, they made him look diabolical. I would not trust him, whereas in the game, he's "pleasant looking." In this clip, you'll see Celebrimbor vs Sauron


My understanding is that he was super corrupting one during the Second Age, but if he's looking diabolically evil from the beginning, I don't know.
 
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First off, I hope we're not expected to take the clip of that game as some sort of canon, which the new series should conform to. Because I would certainly take issue with its authenticity as well.

Second point. The Crawling Chaos, or possibly someone else but I can't find it, point out that as not great Tolkien fans, they have a very different take on what they're expecting. And clearly the series is made for "newbies" as well as we, who have read the books multiple times.
It doesn't mean they can do what they like with Middle-earth, but simply that satisfying us cannot be their only consideration.

I agree wholeheartedly with what Teresa says about Mr. Gore. (I object to the idea of self-styled influencers as a general rule anyway. :))

Coming back to Galadriel, I have no objection to her being a warrior at this (some) point in the series, and then becoming disillusioned with fighting and retiring to the hidden land of Lothlorien, where she felt she could preserve some of what was being lost out in the big wide world. It was stated as such in the LOTR; possibly by the new whiter than white Gandalf. (Trust me, but I can't be bothered to look for the quotation.)

Oh. And another thing. Rivendell, and its depiction in the films etc.
I had a very different feeling about Rivendell, its architecture and decor, in the LOTR from that in the Hobbit.
Imladris was far more than the last homely house east of the sea and west of the mountains. So the depiction in the film didn't bother me. (Did it appear in the Hobbit films? I don't remember.)

And lastly, I'm not sure that all of the elves have to have long blond hair. Elrond has long dark hair in the film, and certainly Maiglin's hair is dark in the Silmarillion. But can't some of them have shorter hair without losing their Elfishness? Certain characters I agree with, but I know from experience that long hair can get in the way. (I was never into swordfighting though. Maybe they have a special hairspray for that.)
(I'm also not certain that it was specified by Tolkien that they have pointed ears. I think that trait has been stolen from some other mythology. Please tell me if I'm wrong)
 
First off, I hope we're not expected to take the clip of that game as some sort of canon, which the new series should conform to. Because I would certainly take issue with its authenticity as well.
No sir. It was just an illustration for the speculation, but I get the hints. So I'll back off. You guys keep the thread.
 
(I'm also not certain that it was specified by Tolkien that they have pointed ears. I think that trait has been stolen from some other mythology. Please tell me if I'm wrong)
Interesting question. Here are answers (including about Tolkien's elves):

 
Interesting question. Here are answers (including about Tolkien's elves):

It doesn’t actually comment on Tolkien’s elves having pointed ears though?
 
It doesn’t actually comment on Tolkien’s elves having pointed ears though?

A lot of sources automatically point to Tolkien as the one who popularized the pointy-eared elf; however, Tolkien never described his elves in-depth. In fact, in the fandom, opinions are divided on whether his elves’ ears are really intended to be pointy at all. In some of his letters, he did say that their ears were “leaf-shaped” and that a hobbit’s ears were "ears only slightly pointed and 'elvish'" (Letters, 35 (27), Annotated Hobbit, 10); however, in that second case, it's possible he was referring not to his elves but to the little Santa-style elves of contemporary imagination, who already had pointy ears. Either way, Tolkien was by no means the first or most famous user of pointy-eared elves.
 
CTG. Please don't back off. But the game seemed more intent on its playability than its accuracy. (Which seems a perfectly reasonable thing for a game to do.)

Harebrain. Thanks for that reference.
So pointy ears basically by default from other history, mostly from Pan via Puck. Although in the entry against 1954 it states that JRRT has created his own kind of elf, which seems pretty true. And his saying they're leaf-shaped is like saying they're a tall as a piece of string. (A leaf by Niggle?)

It also states an elf is a fairy of which a goblin is a subset.
So next question: Do orcs have pointed ears. I don't think Jacksons orcs do, or the Amazon ones. The Silmarillion (IIRC) says that orcs MAY be elves twisted by Morgoth, but isn't certain. So should they have inherited pointed ears? Or did they get filed down in the factory?
 
Hopefully the Elves ears wont be a key point for critique for the series. Some things will not match up with Tolkein's work.
I've been pleasantly surprised by the Wheel of Time season 1 on Amazon Prime. Rings of Power has a bigger budget... but can't get the past the fact that Wheel of Time is based on a popular novel series while this is a relatively fresh look on LOTR.
Has there been a good high fantasy tv series that is not based on a novel(s)?
 
I don't see why elves would have very pointed ears. Or very long hair, come to that. Tolkien's own drawing of Bilbo at the end of The Hobbit does suggest his ear might be slightly pointed, though it's not very detailed. As for elves' ears being "leaf-shaped", that isn't very helpful as leaves come in all different shapes, but to me it suggests more of a point than a typical human ear (much like his drawing of Bilbo) but less than the elongated point typical of Victorian fairies.
 

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