The Lord of the Rings - Second Age - Amazon Prime

[ctg]

 

[The Crawling Chaos]

I don't think it necessarily is. I suppose it depends whether you want to reflect modernity or authenticity. As another example - I am not a fan of watching Gods of Egypt and seeing not an Egyption in sight.

"Authenticity" is a strange notion to use in the context of a fictional universe. Even the place and times that inspired it were far more diverse than what Hollywood would have us believe.

Fantasy story or not, Gods of Egypt was set in a real country and based on the beliefs of a real civilisation. There lied the insult in not seeing one member of said civilisation represented on screen.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

As to authenticity, Tolkien's peoples did not live in kingdoms or eras known to our history, so the arguments that might be applied to something like Gods of Egypt do not apply to Middle Earth, nor do we have to fall back on the argument "it's all made up anyway"( which I don't like as an excuse for anything, since it's a saying often used to disparage fantasy, and the thought that goes into worldbuilding). There are perfectly good arguments in favor of a diverse cast based on Tolkien's own writings:

Readers who have not read all the histories of his fictional world that Tolkien wrote (some in greater detail, some in lesser) may not be aware that he was not writing about some other planet or dimension, but about our own world in some distant (very, very distant) mythical era. Since our world has many different races of humans, with different skin tones, and features, there is no reason to suppose that these same races were not present in that mythical time. Tolkien certainly never states that there weren't. (The idea that all of Middle Earth is England and all the people therein look like good little Anglo-Saxons is nonsense. Tolkien did not say he was writing about England; he said he wanted to write a mythology for England. He wrote about broad lands and different cultures. If any place in Middle Earth is England, it would be the tiny land of the Shire. And the Hobbits, by the way, he describes as having brown skin. Or at least he said they had clever brown fingers, and if anyone wishes to imagine them as otherwise pale-skinned but with darker fingers, they are welcome to, but it makes more sense to me that the fingers would match the rest of their skin.) And since the First and Second Ages each lasted thousands of years and he does describe certain peoples moving about and migrating from place to place, and he doesn't tell us everything that happened and left gaps for us to fill in, then we have no way of knowing how the different races met and mingled during that era. He certainly gives us no reason to suppose that they did not. He left it open to interpretation. He did give us an idea of what the typical Numenorean looked like, but Numenor came along rather late in that history, and besides, they were originally a relatively small, related group. On the other hand, many of them were sea-farers: traders and explorers. And not just ordinary folks. He mentions at least one prince of Numenor who spent much of his long life sailing from place to place. It seems not unlikely that some of these travelers met, married, and brought back foreign wives when they returned home, and had children of mixed race. This may have included members of the royal house, and thus we might well have the darkly beautiful Queen Regent.

The Dwarves are a somewhat different matter. We may imagine that Dwarves, living in isolated underground communities would tend to be pale-skinned. Yet there were seven fathers of the Dwarves, and we mostly hear about descendants of one of them: Durin I. It is conceivable that some of the other six groups were created with darker skin tones, and what we think of as African or Asian features. Tolkien never says otherwise, so again it is open to individual interpretation.

The Elves when they first awoke, awoke in Middle Earth (not in the Undying Lands). When the Valar found out that they were awake, they sent to invite the Elves to come to live with them in Aman. Not all of the houses/families/tribes/whatever you want to call them, decided to go. (Tolkien called the three groups who eventually did cross the sea three Houses—the Vanyar, the Noldor, and the Teleri— which does sound more like families than tribes or races.) He describes these Elves, the Eldar, so that we do have an idea of what they looked like. Of those who decided to stay behind, the Avari, they pretty much disappeared from the story, so we have no descriptions of what they looked like. So again, it is open to interpretation. Some of the Elves who meant to make the journey found lands they liked along the way and decided to settle in Middle Earth after all. One of these groups, the Sindar (originally part of the Teleri host), sometimes called the Grey Elves, are very important figures in the story, so we do get descriptions of some of them, but of the others who decided to remain in Middle Earth ... nothing. So again, it's open to interpretation as to whether they had fair skin and what we think of as basic European features. Since Tolkien never said that these various groups never intermarried (in fact, he does say that the Eldar across the sea in the Undying Lands did intermarry and produce children, so why would there be a taboo against intermarriage among those who stayed behind, when they met each other again later?) that there might be someone who looks like Arondir among the fairer-skinned Wood Elves seems quite possible.

 

[The Crawling Chaos]

I don't know The Wheel of Time at all so I don't really understand what's at stake with this forced diversity you mentioned. But as far as Middle-Earth is concerned there is no need to try and explain diversity through plot. Middle-Earth can just have various ethnicities and that's that. If we can accept that it's a world diverse enough to have given birth to orcs, balrogs, spacemen, elves, halflings and countless other creatures all living together, it's not much of a stress of the imagination to accept that within each of those races there can be a wide gamut of skin colors.

Re: Anne Boleyn - Again you're talking about a real historical character here. No argument from me.

Ghost in the Shell - The movie explained rather well why 'Motoko' didn't look Japanese. She was Japanese, but the cybernetic body she was given looked caucasian. A perfectly valid explanation, in keeping with the story's themes of mind and identity vs flesh and corporeal form. She didn't look Japanese in the original animated film either in fact. Of course the cynic in us knows it wasn't only a creative decision, and there's a reason why the part went to Johansson rather than, say, Lupita Nyong'o. But to me this is not whitewashing.

 

[KGeo777]

I met a guy once who was a writing teacher--smart, articulate, gave good writing instruction from what I saw--and yet he said he did not think there was anything worth reading before 1950.
I was stunned.
Completely utterly stunned.
But he was of Chinese ancestry, and for him, there was nothing in western literature that had any relevance for him until it became more diverse. The lives of Shakespearean characters had no meaning for him.
I can't blame him for dismissing thousands of years of literature any more than I would blame myself for not having much interest in Chinese literature. Different strokes for different folks. Mind you, if his students were European, I would be smacking them on the head if they said they were dismissing so much literature. You cannot be an artist of any worth if you have no curiosity about the past.
That's one (tired) point to make.

Here's another repeat observation: In 2010, a Pixar executive was asked on a talk show why movies were so dull and uninteresting. And he said Hollywood treats a film like it is a cookie that is designed not to taste good to any particular customer, but to have a little of something for everyone, and ultimately ends up rather bland.
I think it is also like the Borg going around and forcefully assimilating planets, and then putting on a musical with its borg drones. You can imagine it would be a rather tepid affair. No energy, no enthusiasm, etc.
That's today's media. It's the Borg putting on a musical. It's hard on the eyes and ears. Re-calibrate that shield mutation.

The problem in today's media is that they are so devoted to trying to do one-size-fits-all that they are not really pleasing anyone.
I am being generous though-I think the media gatekeepers utterly despise culture and history (especially western)--at the very least they have no personal enthusiasm for it, and it comes through in what they make.

The solution is to not less is more, and trying to cram everything into the media blender, the solution is letting artistic streams flow in whatever way they will, and not try to restrict it to a narrow committee-approved big megaphone sensational ballyhoo content extravaganza.

It won't work. It's Tower of Babel chaos.

Truth is, if ten different production companies did their own LOTR show, chances are there would be something to please everyone, including those who don't have any interest in it at all, like me.
I may be interested in watching The Balrog's Fire Safety Instruction Video.

 

[SilentRoamer]

As to authenticity, Tolkien's peoples did not live in kingdoms or eras known to our history, so the arguments that might be applied to something like Gods of Egypt do not apply to Middle Earth, nor do we have to fall back on the argument "it's all made up anyway"( which I don't like as an excuse for anything, since it's a saying often used to disparage fantasy, and the thought that goes into worldbuilding). There are perfectly good arguments in favor of a diverse cast based on Tolkien's own writings:

Readers who have not read all the histories of his fictional world that Tolkien wrote (some in greater detail, some in lesser) may not be aware that he was not writing about some other planet or dimension, but about our own world in some distant (very, very distant) mythical era. Since our world has many different races of humans, with different skin tones, and features, there is no reason to suppose that these same races were not present in that mythical time. Tolkien certainly never states that there weren't. (The idea that all of Middle Earth is England and all the people therein look like good little Anglo-Saxons is nonsense. Tolkien did not say he was writing about England; he said he wanted to write a mythology for England. He wrote about broad lands and different cultures. If any place in Middle Earth is England, it would be the tiny land of the Shire. And the Hobbits, by the way, he describes as having brown skin. Or at least he said they had clever brown fingers, and if anyone wishes to imagine them as otherwise pale-skinned but with darker fingers, they are welcome to, but it makes more sense to me that the fingers would match the rest of their skin.) And since the First and Second Ages each lasted thousands of years and he does describe certain peoples moving about and migrating from place to place, and he doesn't tell us everything that happened and left gaps for us to fill in, then we have no way of knowing how the different races met and mingled during that era. He certainly gives us no reason to suppose that they did not. He left it open to interpretation. He did give us an idea of what the typical Numenorean looked like, but Numenor came along rather late in that history, and besides, they were originally a relatively small, related group. On the other hand, many of them were sea-farers: traders and explorers. And not just ordinary folks. He mentions at least one prince of Numenor who spent much of his long life sailing from place to place. It seems not unlikely that some of these travelers met, married, and brought back foreign wives when they returned home, and had children of mixed race. This may have included members of the royal house, and thus we might well have the darkly beautiful Queen Regent.

The Dwarves are a somewhat different matter. We may imagine that Dwarves, living in isolated underground communities would tend to be pale-skinned. Yet there were seven fathers of the Dwarves, and we mostly hear about descendants of one of them: Durin I. It is conceivable that some of the other six groups were created with darker skin tones, and what we think of as African or Asian features. Tolkien never says otherwise, so again it is open to individual interpretation.

The Elves when they first awoke, awoke in Middle Earth (not in the Undying Lands). When the Valar found out that they were awake, they sent to invite the Elves to come to live with them in Aman. Not all of the houses/families/tribes/whatever you want to call them, decided to go. (Tolkien called the three groups who eventually did cross the sea three Houses—the Vanyar, the Noldor, and the Teleri— which does sound more like families than tribes or races.) He describes these Elves, the Eldar, so that we do have an idea of what they looked like. Of those who decided to stay behind, the Avari, they pretty much disappeared from the story, so we have no descriptions of what they looked like. So again, it is open to interpretation. Some of the Elves who meant to make the journey found lands they liked along the way and decided to settle in Middle Earth after all. One of these groups, the Sindar (originally part of the Teleri host), sometimes called the Grey Elves, are very important figures in the story, so we do get descriptions of some of them, but of the others who decided to remain in Middle Earth ... nothing. So again, it's open to interpretation as to whether they had fair skin and what we think of as basic European features. Since Tolkien never said that these various groups never intermarried (in fact, he does say that the Eldar across the sea in the Undying Lands did intermarry and produce children, so why would there be a taboo against intermarriage among those who stayed behind, when they met each other again later?) that there might be someone who looks like Arondir among the fairer-skinned Wood Elves seems quite possible.

Thankyou very much for this response Teresa - it really gives me something to think about, is very well thought out and speaks to the authenticity I am talking about. I am afraid I cannot discuss this in as much detail as I have already had a post removed and I don't tread the line as well as others when it comes to avoiding moderation.

I think these sorts of discussions (obviously they cannot take place here) are very interesting and as long as they are conducted in good faith, and without prejudice, are actually worthwhile because they also explore the literature. So again I want to thank you for your response, it shows a real depth of understanding of Tolkien (in comparison to my own), and ultimately I am happier to be educated than to hold positions which don't hold up to scrutiny and are informed by my own misunderstandings of Tolkiens work (I've only read LotR twice, the Hobbit twice and Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales and Tales of Hurin once).

Just wanted to comment on: "he said they had clever brown fingers" - I always took this to be an equivalent of the modern day "green fingered", I took it as a sign their hands were always dirty because they worked the Earth and were closer to nature (and the clever being in reference to their ability to connect) - which is befitting of how I imagine Tolkien saw an idyllic Shire. Do you think that holds up?

I always imagined the Dwarves and the Humans to have some ethnic disparity between the nations, however I always imagined the Elves to be fair skinned, pointy eared and long haired. I like the actor who plays Arondirs portrayal however, he does come across as how I imagine Elves to act - each word carefully chosen, I actually prefer this actors portrayal to that of the actor playing Elrond.

 

[SilentRoamer]

I don't know The Wheel of Time at all so I don't really understand what's at stake with this forced diversity you mentioned.

In the Wheel of Time, the Two Rivers are an isolated community deep into a mountain range, they have extremely little contact with outsiders and even the next village over is alien to most Two Rivers folk. Rand al' Thor the main series protagonist was not born in the Two Rivers, he was born on Dragonmount to an Aeil (very pale desert peoples) and he was adopted and taken to the village. Rand is taller, paler and redheaded, something no one else in the village looks like. The Two Rivers people I always imagined as being darker skinned. The peoples of the Wheel of Time and their nations are distinct, which is why creating ethnic diversity in an isolated mountainous community doesn't make sense - the Wheel of Time world is already rich in culture and peoples.

Ghost in the Shell - The movie explained rather well why 'Motoko' didn't look Japanese. She was Japanese, but the cybernetic body she was given looked caucasian. A perfectly valid explanation, in keeping with the story's themes of mind and identity vs flesh and corporeal form. She didn't look Japanese in the original animated film either in fact. Of course the cynic in us knows it wasn't only a creative decision, and there's a reason why the part went to Johansson rather than, say, Lupita Nyong'o. But to me this is not whitewashing.

This is a good point, I just would have liked an Asian concept to feature an Asian actress, it would have felt more authentic to me.

I suppose authenticity is very subjective and what feels authentic to me may not feel authentic to someone else. If the RoP causes more people to find and read Tolkien (maybe even inspires a generation of book readers) then that can only be a positive thing.

 

[SilentRoamer]

So I have now watched Episode 2 and here are my thoughts:

Pros:
- I like the Stranger mystery - I cannot decide if it is Sauron or one of the Blue Wizards? Maybe even Gandalf himself?
- The interaction between Durin/Elrond was great and made me laugh, I feel like the actor playing Durin did a wonderful job. Disa added really well to that scene. Does anyone know why Disa has Golden eyes? Is it something to do with Delving?
- I loved the Foreshadowing in Khazad Dum (places we should not delve)
- The Orc design, I love that they arent huge like the Uruk Hai but they seem less human than Jacksons Orcs.
- Again beautiful visuals and music score.
- I like the actor who plays Arondir - I think he comes across as a badass.

Cons:
- The plotting pace seems a little off sometimes.
- The lore seems to be thrown out the window - where is Celembrimbor?
- Some of the writing is really awful to me "a stone can only see downwards". Im not sure if they are trying to imitate Tolkiens prose on the screen but some of the writing is really just not working for me.

Overall I thought the 2nd episode was on a par with the first episode, however - I really need to get pulled in and I need some stakes, both personal and worldly. I give this episode 7/10

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

I always took this to be an equivalent of the modern day "green fingered", I took it as a sign their hands were always dirty because they worked the Earth and were closer to nature

That's a reasonable interpretation if Tolkien had not used the phrase in one of his introductions to the work—that is, writing in his own person and his own words, instead of the words of one of his characters. But of course as a man of the twentieth century, if he meant green fingers one assumes he would have said green fingers (or thumbs). And not all hobbits worked the earth. Frodo and Bilbo and their myriad relations were gentlemen hobbits. One gets the impression that they tended to be rather fastidious and would have kept their hands clean. They employed gardeners (like the Gamgees) to grow their flowers and bought their produce from farmers (like Farmer Maggot). Other hobbits of the same class as the Gamgees, Cottons, and Maggots ran mills, kept taverns, made rope etc. (I use these examples because they are specifically mentioned in the story, but I am sure there must have been a variety of craftspeople: hobbits who made Bilbo's handkerchiefs, for instance, and the teaspoons coveted by his cousin's wife, Lobelia Sackville Baggins, because the hobbits tended to accumulate possessions.

Celebrimbor presumably went back to his workshop in Eregion after he was denied entrance into Khazad Dum, to await the result of Elrond's negotiations with the Dwarves. At least so far, he hasn't turned up again since we saw him outside the Dwarves formidable-looking door.

I don't know why Disa has golden eyes. In one of the interviews the actress mentioned wearing colored lenses for the part, but I don't remember anyone saying why it was thought necessary to change her eye color.

I have now seen three episodes (they drop Thursday evenings in the time zone where I live) and I am still making up my mind about how I feel about the series. But the stakes are definitely rising for some of the characters, Numenor is awesome, and someone involved in the production end of things really likes the color teal!

There is still no answer to the question of the Strangers identity. A popular guess is that he is a Maia (in fact I seem to recall that the show runners hinted as much in an interview but did not say which one.) As you've read the Silmarillion, you probably remember that there are a lot of Maiar, but few are named in the parts of the history this series has the rights to. My grandson who is watching the show wants him to be one of the Blue Wizards, but while I think that might be so, if it is, I don't believe the script can ever say so directly. In LOTR Saruman refers to the staffs of the five wizards" but the first mention of the blue wizards specifically comes in the Silmarillion.

They could get away with hinting, I suppose, if it's a Maia and not Sauron, Saruman, Gandalf, or Radagast. (Since they are fond of the color, maybe he will eventually exchange his rags for teal-colored robes!)

 

[SilentRoamer]

That's a reasonable interpretation if Tolkien had not used the phrase in one of his introductions to the work—that is, writing in his own person and his own words, instead of the words of one of his characters. But of course as a man of the twentieth century, if he meant green fingers one assumes he would have said green fingers (or thumbs). And not all hobbits worked the earth. Frodo and Bilbo and their myriad relations were gentlemen hobbits. One gets the impression that they tended to be rather fastidious and would have kept their hands clean. They employed gardeners (like the Gamgees) to grow their flowers and bought their produce from farmers (like Farmer Maggot). Other hobbits of the same class as the Gamgees, Cottons, and Maggots ran mills, kept taverns, made rope etc. (I use these examples because they are specifically mentioned in the story, but I am sure there must have been a variety of craftsmen: people who made Bilbo's handkerchiefs, for instance, and the teaspoons coveted by his cousin's wife, Lobelia Sackville Baggins, because the hobbits tended to accumulate possessions.

I also saw this reference to brown little fingers as a Hobbit rejection of the more modern ways of Men. (Which I saw as analogous to the Industrial Revolution). Like how the Hobbits live in Hills and the Shire being much more a place of nature and natural beauty.

I think your interpretation probably makes more sense but I do think Tolkien would have positioned the Hobbits as being more harmonious with the world around them (I saw the scouring of the shire as a kind of proof of that). A harkening back to an existence closer to the earth.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

If you are worried about getting another post binned, just be careful not to say anything that sounds like real-world politics or social politics. We used to discuss them here but there came a time when they began to lead to too many flamewars.

I was not involved in binning your post, in case you are wondering, but as a moderator I did see the discussion in the Staff Room, which of course I cannot repeat. I tried to be very careful myself, but was still afraid mine might get binned, too. (Which is doubly embarrassing for a moderator. We do try to be good and follow the rules, but we can get caught up in a discussion just like anyone else.)

A harkening back to an existence closer to the earth.

Tolkien has said that the Shire itself represents the English countryside of his Edwardian youth. He did, of course love nature and hated rapid industrialization, yet he seems to have had no problem with machines like looms and printing presses.

 

[svalbard]

I find it odd that people criticize the Harfoots for not sounding authentically Irish, when of course they are not intended to be Irish. The story takes place in a mythic age of the world where there isn't any Ireland as yet, when there won't be any Irish for thousands and thousands of years yet, and if there were, the Harfoots wouldn't be them in any case. So they do have a kind of sort of Irish-like lilt. They need something to set them apart from the big folk.

(And anyone who hates the accents here, they must have despised Jackson's The Lord of the Rings, where a number of the actors slipped in and out of their accents throughout the movie. Especially, I blush to admit, a couple of the Americans.)

And the dwarves in RoP, supposedly stereotypically Scottish ... but in what ways do they appear Scottish, stereotypically or otherwise (aside from Durin IV's red hair and beard—but the Scots are not the only people where red or reddish hair is relatively common). They don't dress as stereotypical Scots, their architecture and lifestyle under the ground are not Scottish. Their language, I believe is more closely related to Hebrew than to any Celtic language—it looks more Hebrew, anyway. Their music doesn't sound like Scottish music. Are their accents Scottish? I thought they sounded Welsh, but maybe that's because Owain Arthur (Durin IV) has such a strong Welsh accent in the interviews that I super-impose it on his performance.

Look, if people don't like the show, that's fine. We all like what we like and dislike what we dislike. No reasons are necessary. . We are allowed to feel what we feel. But if a reason is given, it would help if it was easier for me to comprehend.

I think giving the Harfoots Irish accents has hit a wrong cord with many Irish. I am not going to go into the cultural and historical reasons, but it really is an own goal on their part.

 

[pogopossum]

It is a little late to answer every objection expressed about the RINGS. I am much closer to the generally positive comments expressed by TE and others.
To summarize, while some true believers find specific expansions of the original objectionable, I did not. I found this series, so far, truer to the spirit of Tolkien than was Peter Jackson's LOTR & Hobbit. Most of the "contradictions" are choices made when translating one media to another. And particularly when writing what amounts to a prequel, not a direct treatment.
I know that others are more knowledgeable about the canon, but I have read them several times, The first was 58 years ago, which did not help me stay awake during High School finals.
Anyway. Here is a quite positive review of episode three. Some spoilers, but without specifics that would interfere with enjoyment.
LINK

 

[ctg]

That's a reasonable interpretation if Tolkien had not used the phrase in one of his introductions to the work—that is, writing in his own person and his own words, instead of the words of one of his characters. But of course as a man of the twentieth century, if he meant green fingers one assumes he would have said green fingers (or thumbs). And not all hobbits worked the earth. Frodo and Bilbo and their myriad relations were gentlemen hobbits. One gets the impression that they tended to be rather fastidious and would have kept their hands clean. They employed gardeners (like the Gamgees) to grow their flowers and bought their produce from farmers (like Farmer Maggot). Other hobbits of the same class as the Gamgees, Cottons, and Maggots ran mills, kept taverns, made rope etc. (I use these examples because they are specifically mentioned in the story, but I am sure there must have been a variety of craftspeople: hobbits who made Bilbo's handkerchiefs, for instance, and the teaspoons coveted by his cousin's wife, Lobelia Sackville Baggins, because the hobbits tended to accumulate possessions.

To me, the Hobbits are like Savolaiset from Finland. I saw the analogue between them, but what strikes the difference between dwarf and a halfing is industriousness. The biggest difference is in the love for the quality of life and what is considered as peace. In Jackson's Hobbits I love the intro with the dwarves emptying Biblo's pantry from all things edible. It shows the difference between the races, while Gandalf hovers in the background, chuckling under his beard.

The thing that unifies Bilbo and Frodo as the examples of hobbits and all the halflings is the cake. A quality thing in the life. Gollum was kicked out from their society, but through games you can see that he retained halfling traits, like for example finding games intriguing. Some of them can extend that aspect, and have gardeners, while in the dwarf society such a thing would be unheard of, and most certainly frowned upon.

Elves differ, and I did find it problematic that RoP doesn't show the high standards and elven etiquette from the very beginning. They lived in peace at Numenorian, with humans that had very long lifespans. Some could say they were biblical, and because of their near "immortality" they'd achieved advanced things. Maybe you could compare them to Atlantians, for lack of better analogue. And while they were living in the peace, the High Elven society were formed.

The only thing that really remains from that Numeronian culture is Minas Tiratih and Minas Morgul at the opposite side. The rest is ruins and cultures that formed during the Third Age. When I look at those ruins in the Jackson's LOTR, I see the remains of a high culture, like Numenor. And things like Palantirs are one of the highest products that the Numenor culture achieved, before Sauron got there with his notorious schemes causing the Fall of Numenor and the loss of Silmarils among other things.

From the reviews that I read and watched, I could not see that being present.

I guess that none of the fantasy writers has exposed High Elven culture to the grand public, not talking about Atlantians. Maybe Moorcock is the closest that we have got along Tolkien who have shown such thing ... if you don't count in the Games Workshop products. But even if you do, they got a massive influence from Tolkien's Elven cultures. And other races.

For this series to work, they have to show the rise of that high culture and Sauron corrupting all of it. At the moment, it's just not convincing enough for the people to go wow. This thread conversation about it and Tolkien's culture is however very intriguing. So thank you all, who has participated in it.

 

[HareBrain]

And things like Palantirs are one of the highest products that the Numenor culture achieved

A small point maybe, but the palantirs were a gift from the elves of Valinor to the Numenoreans who'd stayed faithful.

 

[ctg]

A small point maybe, but the palantirs were a gift from the elves of Valinor to the Numenoreans who'd stayed faithful.

Even higher note, thank you. It's that they don't show enough of the proto Elven culture that was truly immortal in the Undying Land, because in the scale of things, it is the highest note of them. When you go there, you become immortal. In my eyes, that's a SF concept.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

For this series to work, they have to show the rise of that high culture and Sauron corrupting all of it. At the moment, it's just not convincing enough for the people to go wow.

I think that the Numenor we are seeing is already starting its decline. This hatred of the elves does not seem healthy. On the other hand, as the Numenorans grew in pride of their own accomplishments, I can see how the paternalistic attitudes of the Elves would not go over well. (Maybe I am wrong and they are not in decline. Maybe they are in their adolescence, and they are rebelling against their "parents" as a necessary stage in reaching full maturity, which thanks to Sauron they never will achieve.)

My impression is that Sauron will not arrive in Numenor until Season 2 at the earliest. But the Numenor we see is becoming fertile ground for his influence once he finally does arrive. Right now it seems that the Numenoreans themselves are tilling that ground (unless Sauron has been sending his agents to secretly and subtly influence the masses--but if he has, they are as yet invisible, and there is no indication of who they are, or if they even exist).

And yet even if this is an early stage in their decline, the Numenor I saw in last night's episode was a splendid sight to see! It was so vast and beautiful. On the other hand, the presence of so many statues, does look like they are obsessed with their glorious past, and the heroic deeds of their ancestors (which is as Tolkien described them leading up to their downfall) rather than what they might do and be in the future.

I am beginning to suspect that the entire first season is meant to set things up for the events of future seasons. This is not to say that exciting things might not happen this season, but whether those things will be there to keep our interest or will directly lead into what is to come is an open question. I wonder if that is a good strategy, leaving us waiting for the "good" stuff to happen, when there will be at least a year between seasons. They are setting up mysteries and giving us clues about this and that for fan theories to center around, but would that be enough?

But maybe they are gearing up for a grand season finale. I can't see anything like that developing now, but there are still five episodes to go, and a lot could change in that time. (Especially since they are not sticking to an hour format. Last night was 70 minutes and some episodes could go longer. They are not constrained as they would be on broadcast TV.)

And speaking of clues and mysteries,

Spoiler

Is Hal's attraction to forges something we should be paying attention to? How did Miriel and her father know to expect Galadriel? They do have a palantir according to the trailers. But if that is where they saw her, what did they foresee her doing that makes them so hostile?

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Even higher note, thank you. It's that they don't show enough of the proto Elven culture that was truly immortal in the Undying Land, because in the scale of things, it is the highest note of them. When you go there, you become immortal. In my eyes, that's a SF concept.

We cross-posted, so I didn't see yours before I hit send. Sorry for this double post.

My impression is that elves were already immortal, that is they don't die a natural death, but it's been made clear that they can be killed. Being sent to live in Valinor would only keep them alive longer because there are less things there to kill them.

But that may just be my attempt to make the whole "we are sending you across the sea to Valinor as a reward" make more sense. That bit and the prologue are for me the weakest parts so far.

Since there has been no mention of the Halls of Mandos and elf reincarnation (and there can't be since the show hasn't the rights to any of that) then I suppose most viewers will never know that getting your throat cut in a pit full of orcs would be a swift route to reaching Aman, no boats necessary.

 

[ctg]

Being sent to live in Valinor would only keep them alive longer because there are less things there to kill them.

But that would be boring. As a SF concept it would only mean that they would take the High Elven culture to space and expand that way. Tolkien however didn't ever suggested it, it's just a possibility. When Bilbo tell to Frodo that he's finally going to the Undying Lands, in my eyes, he's excited because he's going to finally see the high culture and being part of it. Maybe forever, but again when I really think about it, making a mortal species immortal is a SF concept.

 

[therapist]

Is there any reason this show doesn't have it's own featured tv series thread?
I found ep 3 solid. I'm really enjoying Alondir.
There's some things about Halbrand i'm finding strange. Not sure if i'm reading too much into things, but during the scene where Galadrial is first trying to get up on the raft and Halbrand holds his hand out and it looks like Galadrial sort of faints? Is that something?
Also did anyone find it suspicious when Halbrand hugged that guy after their initial meeting with the Numenor queen?