Indiana Jones And The Dial of Destiny (2023)

[Swank]

lmao

No, he is the one and only person that deprives the Nazi's of a weapon that would have guaranteed them winning the war. I'm not saying he's the audience's hero, but does something incredibly important in the world of the film.

I don't know what is arrogant about pointing out how important his contribution to the war is.

 

[CrazyKB]

The main point is the Ark does everything.
The Ark is the prime actor in the film.
The Ark saves Indiana Jones. He does not save himself. Not looking at it is hardly a heroic act. It's defensive.


Lucas said it himself--the problem after Raiders is that there is nothing as visually exciting as seeing these angels flying around and melting people.
Why couldn't he make as many Indiana Jones films as Sherlock Holmes, James Bond, or Doc Savage?
Because in addition to the fact that it had no single author for the character, the character is not as dynamic. He was created as a stock serial adventure hero (or anti-hero actually) to serve a purpose and the treasure quest is the gimmick.

I don't agree that the 'Ark saved Indiana Jones', it was his intelligence, paired with his understanding of Christianity that saved them. He knew not to look because what was in the Ark wasn't for humans to see, it was a violation of God's will (and we all know how angry Yahweh can get).

The second film wasn't that good, the third wasn't bad, however nowhere near as good as the original. The last two films were absolute trash. Disney has become the IP killer.

 

[BAYLOR]

No, he is the one and only person that deprives the Nazi's of a weapon that would have guaranteed them winning the war. I'm not saying he's the audience's hero, but does something incredibly important in the world of the film.

I don't know what is arrogant about pointing out how important his contribution to the war is.

He had the chance to blow up the Ark and didn't take it becuse he wanted to see the Ark open. At that point, he didn't rally believe the power of the Ark . And, if Belloq and his Nazi allies had decided not to open the Ark Indie and Marion's story would likely need right there.on that Island . Opening it Berlin with Hitler entire Nazi hierarchy present at the presented the Ark and ended the Reich in 1936.

 

[KGeo777]

I don't agree that the 'Ark saved Indiana Jones', it was his intelligence, paired with his understanding of Christianity that saved them. He knew not to look because what was in the Ark wasn't for humans to see, it was a violation of God's will (and we all know how angry Yahweh can get).

How would he have escaped otherwise?
The Ark angels burned through the rope.
He wanted to look --he ignored all the warnings about it until he saw the real power -- saw what was happening to the cameras and thought better to play it safe. He had intended to destroy the Ark (if it were even possible) but then gave himself up.
This is what I am talking about.
Indiana Jones does very little that is actually heroic by the traditional standards. He's not Doug McClure. He's not Flash Gordon.

He is losing, running, escaping, avoiding, --he almost commits suicide in the bar (likely would have been killed anyway) and saved by children.
He gets saved by Short Round at least once.

Lucas and Spielberg intended him to be the hero deconstructed--and that is what you have.

 

[KGeo777]

No, he is the one and only person that deprives the Nazi's of a weapon that would have guaranteed them winning the war. I'm not saying he's the audience's hero, but does something incredibly important in the world of the film.

I don't know what is arrogant about pointing out how important his contribution to the war is.

I thought you meant he was a national hero from the movies.
But in the story--I don't think he can advertise what he did.
It's top secret so no one is going to know about it.

 

[paranoid marvin]

He had the chance to blow up the Ark and didn't take it becuse he wanted to see the Ark open. At that point, he didn't rally believe the power of the Ark . And, if Belloq and his Nazi allies had decided not to open the Ark Indie and Marion's story would likely need right there.on that Island . Opening it Berlin with Hitler entire Nazi hierarchy present at the presented the Ark and ended the Reich in 1936.

Indy wouldn't blow up the Ark, because he is an archaeologist. Archaeologists don't do that kind of thing, even if they artefact they are after is in the hands of Nazis. Thats why the Germans knew that he was bluffing about using the bazooka.

Indy didn't know that the Ark was real, but I think that he suspected that it was. Which is why he didn't try to open it when he found it. As an historian as well as an archaeologist, he knew what would happen if he did, without first having the right preparation. And is why he told Marion to close her eyes when it was finally opened.

The Germans thought it was genuine, because they also knew that the Ark couldn't just be opened without following certain procedures. As to them it was first and foremost a weapon, they wanted to see what it would do to Indy and Marion when it was opened.

I think that if it had gone to Berlin then it would have gone straight into the hands of Himmler, who would have been on the receiving end of the Ark. Could the Nazis, knowing its power and still being in possession of it, have used it to their benefit?

However there was no way that they would dare risk sending a potentially empty box to Hitler or Himmler, so it had to be tested first. Also Belloq is himself an archaeologist first and a Nazi second, and his own curiosity would not have allowed the Ark out of his grasp without first having a peek inside and seeing if it was indeed the genuine article.

 

[paranoid marvin]

I think Sahara (2005) with Matthew McConaughey has some huge similarities. It is action /adventure and treasure hunting, and of course, it was also a huge box office flop too!

I know many people don't like Matthew McConaughey, or Sahara either, but I liked it. it is a Clive Cussler book, and there are plenty of Clive Cussler and Charles Stross type books (but maybe not Dan Brown ) that could be adapted for the screen and would make excellent films (rather than this Disney committee by numbers script.) There are also plenty of younger actors they could get to play the role of the protagonist too - Jason Momoa??

That Treasure Hunter TV series with Lucy Luu seemed to do quite well. I liked that whenever I caught reruns on some obscure channel.

I thought that Sahara started off promisingly but then went downhill. Romancing the Stone was quite an enjoyable Indiana Jones type story, although for my money Brendan Fraser's The Mummy is the best.

 

[BAYLOR]

I thought that Sahara started off promisingly but then went downhill. Romancing the Stone was quite an enjoyable Indiana Jones type story, although for my money Brendan Fraser's The Mummy is the best.

The Mummy is a fun film had lots of great comically funny moments.

 

[Swank]

He had the chance to blow up the Ark and didn't take it becuse he wanted to see the Ark open. At that point, he didn't rally believe the power of the Ark . And, if Belloq and his Nazi allies had decided not to open the Ark Indie and Marion's story would likely need right there.on that Island . Opening it Berlin with Hitler entire Nazi hierarchy present at the presented the Ark and ended the Reich in 1936.

It wasn't just his love of the ark, but the fact that he an Marian would have died shortly afterwards.

 

[Swank]

I thought you meant he was a national hero from the movies.
But in the story--I don't think he can advertise what he did.
It's top secret so no one is going to know about it.

Doesn't matter if you can tell people what you did or not. That isn't what being a hero is.

In my arrogant opinion, of course.

 

[BAYLOR]

Doesn't matter if you can tell people what you did or not. That isn't what being a hero is.

In my arrogant opinion, of course.

That works.

 

[CrazyKB]

How would he have escaped otherwise?
The Ark angels burned through the rope.
He wanted to look --he ignored all the warnings about it until he saw the real power -- saw what was happening to the cameras and thought better to play it safe. He had intended to destroy the Ark (if it were even possible) but then gave himself up.
This is what I am talking about.
Indiana Jones does very little that is actually heroic by the traditional standards. He's not Doug McClure. He's not Flash Gordon.

He is losing, running, escaping, avoiding, --he almost commits suicide in the bar (likely would have been killed anyway) and saved by children.
He gets saved by Short Round at least once.

Lucas and Spielberg intended him to be the hero deconstructed--and that is what you have.

I wasn't discussing his 'escape', only the fact that they were spared. If you watch that scene he has an epiphany, he realized that if they didn't look at it they might be spared. Yes, he wanted to destroy it, however curiosity and Belloq's speech changed his mind. He an archeologist, destroying it would go against everything he believed in. Also, he didn't believe in any of the supernatural claims regarding it ( the film alludes to this at the meeting at his university with the two army intelligence agents). However, you can see the expression on his face change after the Ark is opened and the paranormal events begin. He doesn't close his eyes at first, because he's trying to grabble with what he's seeing.

Indiana, like Han Solo, is a moral man, however he's not a hero per se.

 

[paranoid marvin]

I wasn't discussing his 'escape', only the fact that they were spared. If you watch that scene he has an epiphany, he realized that if they didn't look at it they might be spared. Yes, he wanted to destroy it, however curiosity and Belloq's speech changed his mind. He an archeologist, destroying it would go against everything he believed in. Also, he didn't believe in any of the supernatural claims regarding it ( the film alludes to this at the meeting at his university with the two army intelligence agents). However, you can see the expression on his face change after the Ark is opened and the paranormal events begin. He doesn't close his eyes at first, because he's trying to grabble with what he's seeing.

Indiana, like Han Solo, is a moral man, however he's not a hero per se.

It's questionable as to whether closing your eyes really works. If you are a Hitler or a Himmler, would you be spared by simply looking away? I like to think that Indy and Marion were spared because they were good, moral people - or at least as much as he could be in his role.

The one thing that surprised me was that he didn't put it back where he found it. But perhaps, from past experience, he knew that it was safer locked away in a nondescript American government warehouse.

 

[BAYLOR]

It's questionable as to whether closing your eyes really works. If you are a Hitler or a Himmler, would you be spared by simply looking away? I like to think that Indy and Marion were spared because they were good, moral people - or at least as much as he could be in his role.

The one thing that surprised me was that he didn't put it back where he found it. But perhaps, from past experience, he knew that it was safer locked away in a nondescript American government warehouse.

Here's kicker , were it me, I would looked have been tempted to look right at the Ark .

 

[Dave]

I've been following this discussion/argument without a really having a hat in the ring (pun intended) and it is many years since I last watched Raiders (first saw it on the cinematic release) but I just wanted to say something regarding this:

I like to think that Indy and Marion were spared because they were good, moral people - or at least as much as he could be in his role.

This was exactly what I believed on first seeing the film, without reading any analysis or thinking about it very hard. I still think that belief was meant to be the intension of the plot. I do think that film and book reviewers can read things into scripts and books that were never the intention of the scriptwriter or author.

The one thing that surprised me was that he didn't put it back where he found it. But perhaps, from past experience, he knew that it was safer locked away in a nondescript American government warehouse.

Again, this also surprised me on my first watch. The government warehouse is a great conspiracy theory that even spawned a TV series by itself, but the character of Indy would surely put the Ark back so that it couldn't be found again? That's an interesting idea that it would be lost among the other objects in unmarked boxes within the warehouse, and I think that the film did play up to that idea, but it would be catalogued, and would he really trust the US government?

 

[Le Panda du Mal]

Personally Id like to have seen Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis film.

I would have loved this. The computer game was IMO the best thing in the Indy franchise after Raiders.

 

[BAYLOR]

I would have loved this. The computer game was IMO the best thing in the Indy franchise after Raiders.

It was also made into a comic book miniseries too.

 

[CrazyKB]

I meant 'grapple' (dang spell checker).

 

[CrazyKB]

It's questionable as to whether closing your eyes really works. If you are a Hitler or a Himmler, would you be spared by simply looking away? I like to think that Indy and Marion were spared because they were good, moral people - or at least as much as he could be in his role.

The one thing that surprised me was that he didn't put it back where he found it. But perhaps, from past experience, he knew that it was safer locked away in a nondescript American government warehouse.

Hitler (as well as Himmler) did horrible things against humanity, however I get your point (which I'll address later). Jones never believed in the supernatural, in fact, the character (at least in the first film) could have been an atheist. From what I remember there are quotes in the old testament that mention man can't know God, and he appeared to be well versed in theology (the meeting with the agents). The foundation of Christian theology (this has to do with your Hitler comment) is predicated on 'belief', not 'behavior' (however the Parable of the Good Samaritan appears to state otherwise). Thus, if Hitler had believed he too would have been spared.

Jones believed that the American government was the best option for dealing with the Ark because (this is my theory) they knew that trying to weaponize it would be futile (for obvious reasons). Although Jones was cleary disappointed that they couldn't (respectably) study the Ark, he knew the best thing was to bury it. That's the great thing about the first film, there's an internal logic to it, which is why kids (now adults) still love it.

It would be nice if we could take the last two films and bury them in some unknown warehouse to be forgotten.

 

[Swank]

I don't think the Old Testament God is all about morals. The Ark is a nugget of God's power and demands reverence and subservience, and it rewards that devotion by destroying the enemies of its caretakers when challenged in its presence.

Belloq and the Germans stared the power of the Ark straight on - as modern unbelievers would. They have not earned the protection of the Ark and are starring in defiance. Certainly, most of the pre-war German sailors observing the event are not immoral people.

What is interesting for Jones is that he overcomes both his natural curiosity at what is happening and he deeply held belief that there is no 'hocus pocus', and makes the correct judgement about what is going to happen - based on his superior knowledge of Ark lore. Knowledge that Belloq either doesn't have or is too arrogant to believe. The burned away ropes are the kind of power the Ark exercises on behalf of the properly deferential, and maybe Indy and Marion's success in escaping the island was also because they were now proper caretakers of the Ark.

It might even be correct to observe that the Germans died BECAUSE Indy and Marion were deferential. Without their actions the Ark may not have reacted so harshly to their enemies.