"promise me, Ned" and "the value of Howland Reed"

[gandrin]

Hi, I'm new to the forum.

I've just been reading through the Jon postings and I'm embarrassed that I never made the connection (L+R=J). However, there are two key aspects that don't fit with "whole story". I am referring to two quotes that echo in my mind.

"Promise me, Ned"

In this forum the prevailing wisdom is that Lyanna made Ned promise to guard Jon. That just doesn't work. Ned repeats this phrase over and over, and always when he's about to maintain his allegiance to Robert, no matter the consequences. In context, and unbiased by any Jon theory, I had deduced that the promise was just that--stick with Robert no matter what happens. Why would Ned recite that phrase when Jon was so distant, both physically and plot-wise? Jon had nothing at all to do with the happenings in King's landing. And don't forget that Ned's path was mostly spent looking for Robert's "other" kids. There is something REAL important about them, and there still is. Notice how they are all still sought-after/well protected, even 2 books after Robert dies? Baratheon blood is still a major factor in the story, and don't forget that we are introduced to the whole story with a dire wolf that had been killed by a stag.

"the value of Howland Reed"
Amazing that after three humongous books we have no idea who Howland Reed is! But I am concerned that this forum seems to discount his "value." Ned certainly didn't. Howland survived the attack in Dorne, so he is obviously powerful. But this statement is not merely about his battle prowess. There is some quiet, scary power about Howland. He had his children sent just in time to save the little Starks. I'll bet he has some magical power of his own. So it bothers me a bit to read the theory of what happened at the tournament of Harrenhal. We assume the wimpy crannogman cannot be Howland, and you theorize that Lyanna was the Knight. But where, then, is Howland? He must figure into the story somehow. There is something important left out of that story. Here's one to chew on--maybe Howland WAS the wimpy guy. And then after his prayer he was given the powers of a green knight or something. That does not diminish Lyanna's part in the story at all--she doesn't have to be the knight. And it figures in Howland.

 

[Trey Greyjoy]

Welcome Gandrin! Its always great to see a new fan of the master!

In regards to Howland Reed, certainly there is a lot more to learn! I think the lack of discussion is simply related to the lack of information we have with which to speculate.
I do believe Howland was the man in tale Jojen told to Bran and probably does have some "green power" I **believe** its been hinted that we shall learn more of Ned & Howlands relationship in future novels.

 

[Jay]

But I am concerned that this forum seems to discount his "value."

I disagree, most people I think percieve Reed to being the key to the whole debate. What has to be realized as this like most other aSoIaf discussions, have been going on for years now, and if certain issies aren't approached recently it's because they have been discussed dozens of times either here or most assuredly at the Martin site.

 

[Culhwch]

Yeah, there was quite a debate on the Howland vs. Lyanna theory a couple months back. I'm for the Howland side, myself. Just plain makes sense....

Interesting point on the 'Promise me...' phrase, Gandrin. Hadn't looked at it that way, I must admit. I don't follow the R+L=J theory, either, and that's a good pointer against it, on the surface. More contemplation required....

And welcome aboard.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Howland Reed has definitely been set up as a key character, though we have yet to meet him - I don't think there's any general consensus to discount him as yet.

 

[Boaz]

Mr. Reed has not shown up yet, or has he? In Meera's stories about the Crannogman, the hero seems reluctant to let people know who he really is. Mr. Reed might have been in the story somewhere already and we did not even know it.

In AGOT, Robert marches through the Neck twice and it seems that Howland did not poke his head out of the mud to say hello to his king... hmmm.

I don't know that we'll ever meet Mr. Reed, but I think a major plot twist depends upon him (regardless if we meet him or not).

As for Lyanna, didn't the text say that it took Lyanna's death to reunite Robert and Eddard? Perhaps Ned's promise was to forgive Robert and to serve him. At the end of Robert's Rebellion, Ned was fed up with Robert and it seems to me that he was just after his sister (a hostage) and not after the destruction of the Targaryens. Perhaps he intended to take his sister home and to renounce Robert and reinstate himself as King in the North.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

Hello, Gandrin, welcome.

I'm not quite sure I follow what you're saying about the promise Ned made to Lyanna... could you elaborate?

Personally, I don't see that it kept coming up when Ned's loyalty was being tested. It simply seemed to come up whenever the subject of her death came up. Beyond that, I definitely remember it coming up when mention was made of killing all of Rhaegar's children.

In regards to your comments about Howland Reed, I think you'll find that many of us here do not underestimate him, and we eagerly await more information about him, if not a character appearance. If you read the argument about the Knight of the Laughing Tree a bit more carefully, you'll find that I, among others, argued that Howland was most likely the knight, and possessed powers beyond simply the ability to fight well.

 

[red_temple]

...and don't forget that we are introduced to the whole story with a dire wolf that had been killed by a stag.

I was under the impression that this deadly embrace symbolized the imminent demise of both Robert and Ned. One death was catalyst to the other. And the wolf pups survived, but were scattered amongst different care-takers.

 

[Trey Greyjoy]

I was under the impression that this deadly embrace symbolized the imminent demise of both Robert and Ned. One death was catalyst to the other. And the wolf pups survived, but were scattered amongst different care-takers.

This is my take on the omen also.

 

[red_temple]

Oh - and welcome to the forum, gandrin!!!

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

I was under the impression that this deadly embrace symbolized the imminent demise of both Robert and Ned. One death was catalyst to the other. And the wolf pups survived, but were scattered amongst different care-takers.

Nicely put, Red.

 

[Raven]

Ned repeats this phrase over and over, and always when he's about to maintain his allegiance to Robert, no matter the consequences.

I really can't agree that this is true, at least not without some evidence.

The first time Ned thinks of the promise, for example, is in the crypt of Winterfell, when Robert says that Lyanna should have been buried on a hill, not under the ground. This is actually a disagreement between Ned and Robert, albeit a mild one. And at this stage Ned has no idea his loyalty to Robert is about to be tested by the offer of the office of Hand. Later, he thinks of it again when dreaming of Lyanna in the crypts. There's no reference to Robert at all here.

There is a reference to Robert when he is speaking to Cersei: she tells him that Robert whispered Lyanna's name on their wedding night, and this prompts him to think of 'pale blue roses', though not of his promise itself. And he dreams of the promise after Jaime's attack, just before Robert sends for him. This is arguably when he has just broken allegiance with Robert by resigning as Hand, certainly, so in a way this fits your hypothesis.

But in his last chapter, Ned thinks of the promise for the last time when he is in the Black Cells, when he is recalling how Rhaegar had ridden past his own wife to award the crown of love and beauty to Lyanna. Robert is only mentioned in passing, as part of the memory. Allegiance to Robert is no longer an issue: he's dead. And the memory is triggered by Ned's concern for his daughters.

I agree that Robert is often around when Ned thinks of the promise, but that makes sense if Ned's promise was to keep Jon's birth secret - since the person it is important to keep it secret from is... Robert.

More to the point: Ned often thinks of the 'price he has paid' to keep his promise to Lyanna. What price has he paid to remain loyal to his king? Up until the start of the series, none. And anyway, why should Lyanna have to make Ned promise to stay loyal to his oldest friend, a man who's closer to him than a brother, who Ned went to war alongside? It makes no sense.

 

[Boaz]

Raven, good argument, except for the price Ned paid. You forgot that he was forced to spurn Ashara Dayne (his true love), to endure her suicide, and to hear her name smeared as the mother of his *******. If he had broken with Robert and sided with the Targaryens, the Tyrells, and Martells, then he could have wedded Ashara Dayne (and put Catelyn Tully aside), convinced Jon Arryn to back him over Robert or at least forced Jon Arryn out of the war, then crushed the Lannisters, Tullys, and Baratheons, and placed Viserys, Dany, or Jon on the throne.

I think that the young Ned thought he'd never love again when he was forced to spurn Ashara. I think he passed this on to Robb.

 

[Raven]

Boaz: true, except that siding with the Targaryens was never, ever an option for Ned. Aerys executed Ned's father and his brother, gruesomely, then called for Ned's own head as a traitor. And once he had taken Robert's side, how could he then switch? Particularly as it seems that Robert's claim for the throne was made (and supported by Ned) long before Aerys' death.

Of course, Rhaegar was a different kettle of fish: but by the time Ned found Lyanna, Rhaegar was long dead. And the prospects of Ned abandoning Robert's claim to pursue Viserys' were... remote.

Ned made his choice right at the start of the war, and there was never any prospect of him changing it.

And I really, really cannot see Ned putting Cat aside, for any reason, even love of Ashara. Forsaking his duty and a vow, even for love... it's not Ned.

So all of this was the price he paid for his original decision to back Robert (not that he had much option), not for any promise he might have made to Lyanna about sticking with Robert.

And, again, why would Lyanna make Ned promise to do something he was manifestly already doing? He just killed three of the Targaryen loyalist Kingsguard, for heavens' sake! I doubt he'd be doing so if he were thinking of switching sides...

If Ned thought he'd never love again after Ashara, by the way, he was wrong. He clearly loved Cat deeply. Robb might have been expected to notice this, you'd think.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

Raven, good argument, except for the price Ned paid. You forgot that he was forced to spurn Ashara Dayne (his true love), to endure her suicide, and to hear her name smeared as the mother of his *******.

I'm wondering: has it been confirmed that Ned had any feelings for Ashara? Sure, there were rumors, but they all involved the love that Ashara had for Ned. I don't recall reading that he loved her in return.

And I don't think that Ned would have put Catelyn Tully aside, regardless of where his loyalties lay. His honor would have prevented him from choosing love over the requirements of his family.

 

[Boaz]

Raven, I forgot the Targaryens murdered his brother and father. Doh! My reasonings usually have a gaping hole which only I am blind to.

And I don't think that Ned would have put Catelyn Tully aside, regardless of where his loyalties lay. His honor would have prevented him from choosing love over the requirements of his family.

Littlefinger was right, Ned's honor only weighed him down... it never allowed him room to maneuver.

 

[red_temple]

I'm wondering: has it been confirmed that Ned had any feelings for Ashara? Sure, there were rumors, but they all involved the love that Ashara had for Ned. I don't recall reading that he loved her in return.

You may be right. The only thing I could find was a reference that indicates there may have been some initial interest by Ned. In ASOS, the chapter where Meera Reed is telling the tale of the Harrenhal tourney:

"The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf...but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench."

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

Oooh, good memory Red!

Ahhh, I can't get enough. I just started reading AGoT again a few days ago and I got some raised eyebrows for that. My copy is incredibly battered after four or five readings. GRRM is like crack!

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

Oooh, good memory Red!

Ahhh, I can't get enough. I just started reading AGoT again a few days ago and I got some raised eyebrows for that. My copy is incredibly battered after four or five readings. GRRM is like crack!

ha ha! I wonder if there's rehab centres been springing up during the past 5 years?

GRRM nearly broke my heart when I met him to get my copy of AGoT signed. He told me it was a first edition and was worth $1500 mint condition!
Mine is sadly far from that!!

 

[reruth0627]

I don't think Howland Reed is going to move a muscle until Bran comes to him fully trained and then alot will be brought to light since Bran is now the next in line to Winterfell and he will need to know everything Ned knew.