"promise me, Ned" and "the value of Howland Reed"

I got the impression that they (Martells) pretty much knew everything that went on, but were trying to get a Lannister to own up to what happened and/or see someone pay for the murder of Elia . There was some passage about them summoning people back to Dorne and interviewing a lot of witnesses.

As far as Jaime goes, I think his whereabouts were pretty much established by the trail of blood he left in the keep. He owned up to everyone he killed as far as I recall.
 
Trey, I think it was Jon Arryn who told them the truth. Yes, I think they know exactly what happened and that's why they 1) have bided their time and 2) are hellbent on revenge.

Doran knew that immediate action against the Lannisters would have brought the wrath of the other six houses down on them... so they have waited patiently for the right time.

Oberyn and the Sandsnakes are hellbent on revenge. Why? If a guard had killed Elia or a freerider had killed Oberyn, then their revenge would have been to kill the poor schmuck. But they've been up against another great house and the killings prove the Lion is greater than the Sun... and that rankles the snakes.
 
Im new to the forum and I dont know if this has been discussed but Ned has a fever dream of Lyanna whilst dying in the dungeon in AGOT. He then says he wished he had a chance to talk to Jon one more time. He felt Jon deserved to know the truth. I truly believe "Promise me, Ned." was about Jon, the child she bore out of love for Rhaegar. In AFFC, Daenerys is told by her old knight that Rhaegar read something in a book that made him believe he needed to be a knight. Perhaps he had some knowledge of the child he would make with Lyanna as well
 
Hello, and welcome! Anyways, i read this whole thread, and feel completely stupid. I definantly did not catch a lot of that stuff about Howland. My Bad... I hope everyone doesn't hate me too much for my previous comments on that topic. It's been too long, and I need to re-read. Ok, so Howland will have a pretty big role, and I am in agreement with whoever said that it would become more apparent after Bran has learned all his stuff with Coldhands.

On the "promise me, Ned" part of this thread, i'm thinking that almost all the evidence (sorry that I'm not providing any here) points to Rheagar+L=J. That brings me to this: any thoughts about how this would become significant if 1, Stannis Found Out, and 2, Dany found out (I'm thinking that Jon will be one of the heads of the Dragon)
I also had a question: obviously Robert's "seed is strong," but what about Rhaegar? Targaryens have the signature purple eyes, blond hair going for them- how does Jon not have any of this?
 
I also had a question: obviously Robert's "seed is strong," but what about Rhaegar? Targaryens have the signature purple eyes, blond hair going for them- how does Jon not have any of this?

Maybe the Stark seed is stronger than the Targaryen. ;)

There is precedent: we know that when the Martells married into the Targaryen line, at least some of the offspring were dark-haired and lacked the purple eyes.
 
I also had a question: obviously Robert's "seed is strong," but what about Rhaegar? Targaryens have the signature purple eyes, blond hair going for them- how does Jon not have any of this?

In regards to this I think some are forgetting something about the Targaryens (and heck maybe I am too since its been awhile). Yes, they usually have the purple eyes and blond hair but they also usually mate within family to keep their bloodline pure as I believe I read in one of the books. So they had usually placed brother with sister or something of that sort to keep their bloodline pure of outside influences feeling no other worthy. Obviously this has changed with the times since Rhaegar most likely is Jon's birth father and Ly Stark the mother. But this opens it up again as it gives Dany the possibility of finding her mate in Jon.

Just something to chew on....that is if I even remembered everything correctly *laughs*
 
Dany and Jon being King and Queen of Westeros is, unless I'm assuming too much, the ideal ending.
 
Robert's ancestor Orys, a ******* Targaryen, was the general who defeated the Storm Lords. As a reward, Aegon the Conqueror (who presumably was fighting somewhere else) gave Orys the lands of the Baratheons and the last Baratheon daughter as his wife. Orys took the name Baratheon and became the Lord of the Stormlands (or whatever that area is called). I do not know how frequently Baratheons were given Targaryen princesses to marry, but King Robert did not show any Targaryen physical traits.
 
Im coming in late, so I apologize for commenting on a bunch of stuff in one jumbled semi-coherent mess (and yes I hear you asking me "Hows that different from the norm Aegon?", and really I appreciate your patience)

Ned knew the worth of Howland Reed. That much was clear from comments Robb made. He survived the Tower of Joy tis true. Thats not a testament to his martial prowess though, I think its a testament to his wisdom and non-magical foresight. Could he survive a fight? The Howland I envision would never get caught in one to begin with....Thats where his value lies.

Neds honor was never and will never be an albatross around his neck. And shame on Boaz for suggesting it. Naivete yes, honor no. Im tired of defending this....honor drove him south, duty forced him to ask the hard questions, loyalty isolated him, naivete killed him. He didnt have the creative malevolence of Cersei or Littlefinger, or even Renly. His shortcomings in the game of thrones were not tied intrinsically to his honor.

Dany and Jon together is not the ideal ending. Dany is not a protagonist. Shes a more likable version of Stannis. Shes killing people for the sake of her own ambitions and believed rights to a land she never knew. Sure shes being just about it....but Stannis would have done virtually the same thing in the process (but gotten more people killed). Would Stannis have found slavery an abomination? Yup. Would he punish his own men who took too many liberties as an occupying force? Yup. Wheres the difference? Stannis is hardened by life, but thats just a matter of time and degree.

Why does all the Targarayen questions seem to come back to the purple eyes and silver hair? The absence or presence of those traits neither confirms or denies anything, its all a red herring at best.

I do like the idea that Ned never loved Ashara. Or rather I like discussing it, I dont really agree with it yet. We really only have our impressions of Ned and the suppositions of Cat to lead us down this path. So Im open to discussing this one at least.....

Maybe and this is a longshot at best, Ned was forced to kill Ashara because she felt honor bound to declare for an infant Jon and keep the current monarchy...thats the bitterness in Ned whenever Ashara is brought up. That would make Ashara present at the birth at the Tower of Joy. I dont know.
 
Neds honor was never and will never be an albatross around his neck. And shame on Boaz for suggesting it.

Ned's honor only weighed him down... it never allowed him room to maneuver.

Naivete yes, honor no. Im tired of defending this....honor drove him south, duty forced him to ask the hard questions, loyalty isolated him, naivete killed him. He didnt have the creative malevolence of Cersei or Littlefinger, or even Renly. His shortcomings in the game of thrones were not tied intrinsically to his honor.

Egg, I'm gonna jump in with both feet.

<Boaz opens mouth wide.>

Since it appears my last post on this subject in this thread was almost two years ago, I'll apologize for rehashing the issue.

Egg, First, let me say that I'm not trying to antagonize you with this post. You have my respect for the work you do, the knowledge you bring to the forums, and for the marriage you have.

<Boaz leaps.>

In a perfect world Ned's way is the better way. Perhaps even in the cruel land of Westeros, dying with honor while leaving your family open for persecution, suffering, and death is still the better way... if your family can live and die with the results.

I like your clear separation of honor and naivete. This helps get to the heart of the matter. Lord Eddard's problem, in my opinion, is that he associated too many non-essentials with his honor.

His promise to Lyanna and his acknowledgement of Jon were a chronic, if not acute, source of psychological anguish. What if he'd confided in Catelyn? Perhaps she'd have helped him bear these burdens. Holding his honor only drove a wedge of misunderstanding and mistrust between he and his wife. Granted, Ned was a young man at the time so his lapse in judgement may be blamed on naivete.

Winter Is Coming are the Stark words. Eddard prepared his descendents for a literal winter, but his offspring were unprepared for the devastation that the Lannisters, Greyjoys, Freys, and Boltons brought upon them. I admit that adolescents and children should not have to lead armies, to be masters of intrigue, to defend their persons from physical attack, to save their father, or to save the world. Ned did the common thing by sheltering his children, but in hindsight it was naive.

More importantly, Lord Eddard gave the Queen and opportunity to flee and he never did anything to control Littlefinger, ie. coerce, manipulate, or bribe him into service. He was too honorable to kill a treasonous woman and her innocent children without a warning. He was too honorable to put political and physical pressure on Baelish until he'd proven himself a criminal. Naive.

He kept secrets for dead people, brought his children up the Stark way, offered mercy to a traitor, and allowed a lying and cheating murderer to operate in complete freedom. By allowing these things to happen so that he could keep his honor, Lord Eddard doomed himself. Honor is not an albatross, but the way Ned wore it... I think it was a matter of time before it's demands put him in harm's way.

Ned was a good guy. He was a loving husband. He was a good father. He was a dutiful son. He was a helpful brother. He was a faithful friend. He was a sober servant of the Crown. He was a just lord to the people. He was pious. He's the guy we aspire to be. He's the guy we want our sons to be.

Littlefinger is a cheat. Cersei is a slut. Jaime is a murderer. Tyrion is faithless. Tywin is amoral. They're all liars, backstabbers, thieves, sadists, rebels, and killers.

As much as I don't like Jon, he seems to be learning how to balance honor with reality. Yes, he killed Qhorin. Yes, he slept with Ygritte. Yes, he told Mance he was turning his colors. But he stayed the course by still serving the Night's Watch in his heart. If he had not killed Qhorin, gone over to Mance, and slept with Ygritte, then Mance would have taken the Wall before Stannis' arrival. Jon's naivete seems to have gone for good by the beginning of AFFC.

The Game of Thrones has it's own rules. If you abide by the rules, then you have a better chance of surviving than not abiding by them. Ned's honor set him at odds with the rules.

Then again, this is all an author's work. We don't know all the circumstances nor all the character's motivations.

To your other points...

Danaerys = Stannis in a dress. I'd agree with that, but I must say that until you said so... I always assumed that Stannis in a dress = Renly. Seriously, was Stannis Stannis when he was twelve? Or did Stannis become Stannis over the years? At the beginning of AGOT, Dany was not Stannis... but she's working on it. She allows herself the illusions of mercy and beneficence.

Now the one that's really got me going is the last one where you suggested the "longshot" of Ned killing Ashara to shut her up. He'd have murdered her. Even though he was a high lord serving the rightful king, putting Ashara on trial meant losing the secret... so he could have called it a secret trial and execution (accident, suicide) but that's still murder.

Pro: 1)Ned seems to have been tormented by the possibility of killing another woman, Cersei, just to put someone on a throne he detested. His previous experience with killing a woman left him without stomach for it. 2)Ned's rage over the losses of his sister and his companions (not to mention his father and brother) and the impending lies and stress upon his honor and marriage by bringing back Jon forced Ned over the edge in his dealings with Ashara. 3)There have to have been many servants at the Tower of Joy, yet we heard of no massacre by Ned's men. Servants lies may be discounted, but a daughter of Dayne's word could carry far. She'd have to be the one silenced while Wylla (sp?) could be left alone.

Con: 1)Ned murdered a woman? He did not seem to have nightmares about it. 2)Ned murdered a woman?

The Targaryen physical characteristics seem important because GRRM makes them seem important... which is exactly what makes a Red Herring. Hmmm. Maybe it seems important because the physical traits are the only evidence that Tommen is not the rightful king.
 
Boaz, I dont think Ive ever been even remotely stressed about something youve posted at me. No need for a disclaimer, your praise is appreciated though.

Heres essentially my beef with Ned and honor.....

It is used on these boards as a dirty word. His honor ruined his life and his childrens. I disagree. It is one thing to be honorable and behave in a fashion that befits a moralistic perspective when faced with an enemy. It is quite another to be stupid (naive in this case).

Time for a personal analogy...Ive captured other-national soldiers before. Most notably in the assualt on Kabul Afghanistan...and treated them with as much respect as is possible under that circumstance. I behaved honorably, but not naively. I know they would have killed or incapacitated me should I let them.

This is exactly what Ned did. He behaved humanely and honorably in the face of Cersei but didnt understand how she thought. She was still a threat and would not have done what he would have in that situation. Thats just a tad unwise. Honor and Wisdom are two entirely different things. Ned doesnt think like his enemies do and we as an audience understand that. Ned does not understand and thus he died. Maybe its splitting hairs but for me its an important distinction.

As for Ashara....I always assumed they had a minimal staff there. It was a time of war and the Usurpers armies were coming. I assumed when Robert broke em at the Ruby Ford they would have fled. Only the Kingsguard stayed behind with Ashara acting as midwife. Thats just my initial reaction.

And maybe it was the more pragmatic Howland that did the deal and told Ned after the fact....you know walked Ashara outside while Ned was talking to his sister. Ned comes out trying to figure out what to do with Ashara and Howland tells him problem solved. I think grim-driven Ned (brother/father killed, sister dead from a kidnapping at the hands of the prince) would have been okay with it for at least a little while. But yer right Ned would be choked up now, but that would explain his reluctance with Cersei. Oh well...pnce again I dont know.


Oh and it is important to note that Jon is honor tempered with wisdom and practicality while Dany is righteousness incarnate. I can see how their paths are diverting. Jon is what Ned could have been. Dany is becoming one of her forefathers....the ones that burned a lot of stuff.
 
I never really saw Dany as the Stannis type, but maybe I was just rooting for the girl (I can't even lie, thats what I do with Arya, so it could be an epidemic for me). I saw her as trying to escape a not-so-good past, trying to earn respect for herself, and attempting to rid the world of what she recognizes to be evils, all the while working towards her goal of winning back a home that she's never seen.
I think she has no clue how to control her dragons as they grow more (if you read the dance chapter at the end of affc, that's what I'm pointing at), but I also think that she is learning what she should, esp. now that Barristan is there with her. I can also see her getting super-suspicious of everyone, which could work out to her benefit or her detriment...
Anyways, I see her as way more complex than Stannis. A match with her and Jon at the end seems a little too, well, perfect to be true, but what do I know? I do think its a definate possibility (especially if R+L=J, which is commonly accepted here, is true) that Jon will be one of the heads of the dragon.
What I really want to see is when Dany comes in and knocks Cersei off her pedestal, just like in Cersei's prophesy. I want Dany to come to Westeros!!!
 
Danaerys = Stannis in a dress. I'd agree with that, but I must say that until you said so... I always assumed that Stannis in a dress = Renly. Seriously, was Stannis Stannis when he was twelve? Or did Stannis become Stannis over the years? At the beginning of AGOT, Dany was not Stannis... but she's working on it. She allows herself the illusions of mercy and beneficence.

Im sorry but I have this picture of Stannis being stood up for the big high school dance, his reaction of course is extreme and he probably decides to cut off her hand or something. She relents and offers to go with him anyway, and he smiles at her and takes her hand literally. Then proceeds to go to the dance with his one-handed date as if nothing happened.

So I would have to say no, Stannis was not the brittle extreme Stannis we know and tolerate when he was 12. He didnt brood as much I imagine and was probably a little more forgiving of slights. But then again, Ive been wrong before.
 
This is exactly what Ned did. He behaved humanely and honorably in the face of Cersei but didnt understand how she thought.

Oh, I think Ned did understand how Cersei thought. He's not really surprised that she doesn't take the opportunity he gives her to flee, if you read his chapters. He's not surprised by anything Cersei does (though Barristan is). The only surprise Ned gets is when the City Watch - who Ned had bribed, by the way - didn't stay bought.

And I think these two statements are a good illumination of Ned's interpretation of honour. He doesn't really expect Cersei will do the right thing - but his honour demands that he at least give her the chance to. He always (or almost always) gives people a chance to make their own decisions.

He also tries to do the right thing himself. But he will compromise his honour if he has to. (And he does, by his false confession to save Sansa, by bribing the Gold Cloaks, by (we believe) lying about Jon.)

What sticks in his throat about bribing the Gold Cloaks is the fact that they ought to do the right thing without being bribed. (That and the fact that he has to rely on LF, who he genuinely doesn't like, to do it.) But he's realistic enough to know that he can't afford to give them the chance, under the circumstances.

For Ned, honour is a personal thing. It's about making your own decisions and living with the consequences. Mostly, when Ned makes a sacrifice for honour, it's a personal one. He doesn't like to ask other people to make sacrifices for his honour. And he doesn't like to prevent other people from making their own choices regarding their honour.

But he's certainly not naive: he doesn't necessarily expect that they will choose to do the right thing, and he does try to make allowances for them failing to do so.

Danaerys = Stannis in a dress. I'd agree with that, but I must say that until you said so... I always assumed that Stannis in a dress = Renly. Seriously, was Stannis Stannis when he was twelve? Or did Stannis become Stannis over the years?

A little of both, judging by his own comments and those of Maester Cressen in ACOK.

Dany and Jon together is not the ideal ending. Dany is not a protagonist. Shes a more likable version of Stannis. Shes killing people for the sake of her own ambitions and believed rights to a land she never knew. Sure shes being just about it....but Stannis would have done virtually the same thing in the process (but gotten more people killed). Would Stannis have found slavery an abomination? Yup. Would he punish his own men who took too many liberties as an occupying force? Yup. Wheres the difference? Stannis is hardened by life, but thats just a matter of time and degree.

I'd say the difference is this: Dany has always been rootless. She's always been looking for a cause, a place in life (as do we all, really). It's no accident that her drive to get to Westeros has slackened now that she has a chance to do some good in another place, or believes she does.

Her attachment is not so much to justice for the sake of it, as to certain principles that she clings to because of this rootlessness. Because they're her own, and because she needs constants in her life, so she tries to create her own.

Stannis, on the other hand, seems to use 'justice' and 'honour' (not to mention self-restraint and abstention from pleasure) as a sort of armour, a way of distancing himself from the world. A scene I would love to see is Stannis talking to Shireen, just to see if that wall he's built goes all the way around... it's clear he doesn't allow himself to feel much love for Selyse, and he squashes any feeling he has for Renly, Robert and Edric (albeit with a struggle), but I wonder how he feels about his girl.
 
Oh, I think Ned did understand how Cersei thought. He's not really surprised that she doesn't take the opportunity he gives her to flee, if you read his chapters. He's not surprised by anything Cersei does (though Barristan is). The only surprise Ned gets is when the City Watch - who Ned had bribed, by the way - didn't stay bought.

And I think these two statements are a good illumination of Ned's interpretation of honour. He doesn't really expect Cersei will do the right thing - but his honour demands that he at least give her the chance to. He always (or almost always) gives people a chance to make their own decisions.

This is what Im saying....you agree with me, you just dont know it yet.

Honor in a competitive situation doesnt cause one to give an opponent a chance to win. Compassion and stupidity does. Having honor in this case would mean treating Cersei with compassion while dragging her to the gallows.

Ned says he's not really surprised by Cersei's actions but she still takes him by suprise at the time. Just by giving her forewarning he's underestimating her and showing he doesnt understand her. He's hoping she makes the decision he would in her situation and thats just ludicrous. Regardless he thinks she's beaten and thats the only reason he feels compassion and offers her a way out. Thats not honorable, thats naive.

He doesnt understand Littlefinger, nor does he understand the Gold Cloaks. He thinks he's covering all his bases but thats because he's naive. He stopped at the first layer of deception while Cersei and LF are moving to the second and third. He bends his honor to make the usurption happen for the sake of his dead friend and loses because he doesnt even understand the game, much less the rules its played by.

The major sticking point is everyone is confusing honor with naivete (insert stupidity if you want). Compare it to your favorite sports team that plays to win, doesnt take cheap shots, takes advantage of opponents weakness on the field of play and keeps all competition on the playing field--thats competing with honor.......Ned going to Cersei is like pulling the goalie in the last two minutes because youre sure you've won and dont want to embarrass the other team too much.
 
Egg, Thanks for reassuring me. My personal nature is and my role in my family growing up was to be the peace maker. Everyone's happiness is my responsibility. So I have a difficult time in disagreements.

The rules of the Seven Kingdom are based on honor and morality. They provide justice and mercy for the inhabitants of the realm. Government, culture and the law all seem dependent upon the abilities of free men to act honorably... or at least a majority of them, especially those in power.

Ostensibly, the rules for The Game of Thrones are the same. But in reality they are not. The only rule is that there are no rules. The winner takes all and the losers are lucky to escape with their lives.

Eddard, in my opinion, was trying to rule the realm for the betterment of his nation, Westerosi society, and his family. Tywin, Cersei, Littlefinger, Jaime, Oberyn, Tyrion, Janos, Pycelle, Kevan, Olenna, Theon, Balon, Euron, Lyssa and Roose all scorn the concept of public servant. They are all out to get theirs for themselves or their families. They are all playing a different game than Ned. It's sad, but evil triumphed (at least physically) over Ned.

I don't want to have to be devious. Leting my mind explore the possibilities of treachery, manipulation, and duplicity can prepare me against double dealings, but the lure of using those same tactics becomes very tempting. But for Ned, his children were involved. This was a quandary for him.

There's a line in the New Testament where Christians are called upon to be wise as serpents yet innocent as doves... or something to that effect. Eddard was like the dove in a nest of vipers. Balish, Cersei, Tywin, Varys and many others glory in their snakishness. (Is that a word?) To me, Jaime is a snake trying to shed his skin and sprout wings.

I know I've seemed harsh with Eddard... it's easy to sit in an air conditioned home, sipping fruit juices, sitting on a cushioned chair, while listening to Mozart and criticize a fictional man in a struggle for his life.

It's a shame that honor has been used as a dirty word.

Eddard should not have had to have been devious. He should not have had to guard against betrayals from his fellows on the Small Council. We should not have to guard agaist betrayals from our family and friends. But it happens... it happens because it's in our nature to give in to evil. Some people resist evil and some give in. We all have to live together.

I find it highly interesting that Tywin Lannister seemed the consumate player in The Game of Thrones and that his children all have gained high positions of power and have all had chances to show what they've learned from him.

Cersei is egotistical, amoral, narcissistic, and becoming sociopathic. She believes she is the realm. What's good for her is good for all.

Tyrion seemed to take the role of Hand very seriously. The Lannisters got the lion's share of the benefits of Tyrion's rule, but he was genuinely concerned with people's rights and welfare.

Jaime seems to want to do justice and love mercy. But he is no position to dispense either. As a general in charge of pacifying rebels (more for the good of his family than the realm), Jaime is required to be heavy handed.

Jaime is the anti-Eddard. Eddard was honorable, yet he was required to open his eyes to dishonor. His honor was used against him. Jaime was born with a love for dishonor, he clothed himself in it. Now he wants to be an honorable man, but he's clueless as to how to go about it. He's reaping what he sowed. I'ts not hard for me to imagine that Jaime's downfall will come about by his enemies finally using his dishonorable past against him. Jaime could be called naive.

Thanks for letting me ramble.
 
This is what Im saying....you agree with me, you just dont know it yet.

Honor in a competitive situation doesnt cause one to give an opponent a chance to win. Compassion and stupidity does.

No, but this is Ned's dilemma. His honour does demand, not that he give people a chance to win or to beat him, but to do the right thing. In the case of Cersei, it comes to the same thing. But to be fair to him, he does realise that and take steps. He fails because he trusts LF, not because he gives Cersei a chance.

Having honor in this case would mean treating Cersei with compassion while dragging her to the gallows.

That's your view of honour, though, not Ned's.

Ned says he's not really surprised by Cersei's actions but she still takes him by suprise at the time. Just by giving her forewarning he's underestimating her and showing he doesnt understand her.

As I've said - this isn't true. If it was, he would not be bribing the Gold Cloaks to get them on his side. He fully anticipates what Cersei will do. The only thing Ned doesn't anticipate is LF's treachery.

And by the same token, Cersei doesn't anticipate that Ned will bribe the Gold Cloaks: as we later discover, she only finds out about this when LF comes to her. If Ned is 'naive', so is Cersei, because she failed to foresee Ned's actions there.

He stopped at the first layer of deception while Cersei and LF are moving to the second and third.

True of LF, but not Cersei. As AFFC shows, Cersei is not nearly as skilled at the Game of Thrones as she believes. ;)

The major sticking point is everyone is confusing honor with naivete (insert stupidity if you want).

I don't agree that Ned was either naive or stupid. I think he follows his honour knowing the risks, and trying to avoid them: and that knowledge precludes either label being applied, to my mind.
 
Raven,

At this point we're splitting hairs. Ned would never have gone to Cersei if he TRULY understood the risks. He may think he did but thats another matter. I dont think his honor would dictate he put his family, retainers, friends at risk for a little morale solvency. You say his honor demanded he show leniency in the face of a defeated enemy, I say his naivete allowed him to think said enemy was defeated. I think Im going to agree to disagree and move on from this point. Nothing more to see here.

Cersei was decent at manipulation in AGoT. She manipulated Robert (not the most difficult thing admittedly)a number of times in that book but thats at least more than Ned was capable of. It was later in the novels that she developed into this horribly insipid troglodyte of a woman.

Now Littlefinger was a different matter. I always thought she went to Littlefinger right after speaking with Ned and offered him Harrenhall. Upped the ante as it were, I didnt think LF orchestrated the treachery of the Goldcloaks as opposed to enabled it. Not that it matters. That would mean Ned didnt understand the depths Cersei would go. The proof is in the pudding so to speak, at the end of the day it was Ned on the chopping block, not Cersei so clearly he underestimated her. Say what you will about LF but Cersei had a hand in that as well.


My point is and always has been it wasnt Neds honor that condemned him. I stand by that.
 
Raven,

At this point we're splitting hairs. Ned would never have gone to Cersei if he TRULY understood the risks. He may think he did but thats another matter. I dont think his honor would dictate he put his family, retainers, friends at risk for a little morale solvency. You say his honor demanded he show leniency in the face of a defeated enemy, I say his naivete allowed him to think said enemy was defeated. I think Im going to agree to disagree and move on from this point. Nothing more to see here.

I'd disagree slightly in that I'm not saying his honour demanded he show leniency. Just that he wanted to give Cersei a chance to do the right thing, which is different. And I still maintain that he knew it was unlikely that she would, and acted accordingly.

Cersei was decent at manipulation in AGoT. She manipulated Robert (not the most difficult thing admittedly)a number of times in that book but thats at least more than Ned was capable of. It was later in the novels that she developed into this horribly insipid troglodyte of a woman.

Certainly, Tyrion has little trouble handling her in ACOK. Varys, LF and Tywin have none whatsoever in any book.

Now Littlefinger was a different matter. I always thought she went to Littlefinger right after speaking with Ned and offered him Harrenhall. Upped the ante as it were, I didnt think LF orchestrated the treachery of the Goldcloaks as opposed to enabled it.

You'd be wrong there. LF approached her after Ned spoke to him. We know this, because Cersei herself says so.

The gold cloaks' treachery is really Slynt's treachery, and this at least is a good example of one of Ned's failings in the Game: he doesn't attend to details. He should have known that Slynt would never back Stannis on the throne: IIRC, the bad blood between Stannis and Slynt is even alluded to in front of him.

My point is and always has been it wasnt Neds honor that condemned him. I stand by that.

I'd agree, actually. I think he was not a bad a player as many make out, for a start. Also, I think the flaws he had were not just restricted to his sense of honour, as I've said, and that he had enough realism to counteract his honour in most cases.
 

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