"promise me, Ned" and "the value of Howland Reed"

[Sword of the Morning]

Lyanna could have Ned promised anything. Like Ned promise me that I'll be placed with father and brandon. Or, promise me Ned take Jon as your own and keep him safe from Robert... Or Ned promise to rup your belly and tap your head at next years feastival. Ok may be not the last one. Looks like well will never learn what its about until Mr. Reed comes into the story. It should be aparent that Reed is pretty good at sword fighting, comsidering out of seven men, Ned and Reed were the ones to leave with their lives. I wounder who kill te Sword of the Morning and how? And its not me in the library killed by the candlestick.

 

[Raven]

SOTM:

It should be aparent that Reed is pretty good at sword fighting, comsidering out of seven men, Ned and Reed were the ones to leave with their lives.

And yet, in the Knight of the Laughing Tree story, it is firmly established that Howland is not good at sword fighting.

Which leads some to believe that Howland's surviving that fight is down to, how shall I put it, other abilities he may have... specifically, it has been suggested that he may be a warg of some description, or had some other power that distracted Ser Arthur Dayne at a critical moment.

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

or had some other power that distracted Ser Arthur Dayne at a critical moment.

"Look! Rhaegar Targaryen!!.....sucker..."

 

[Trey Greyjoy]

"Look! Rhaegar Targaryen!!.....sucker..."

LOL!

Howland Reed, the Lou Costello of fantasy.

 

[Boaz]

"I'm a baaaaad boy, Eddard!"

Seriously, why does Howland need to use a sword? Could he not have just fought using the Crannogmen style (trident and net)?

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

Seriously, why does Howland need to use a sword? Could he not have just fought using the Crannogmen style (trident and net)?

My thoughts exactly, Boaz. There are many reasons for why he could have survived. Who knows? Maybe he fled. Maybe he played dead. Maybe he used his crannogman camouflaging skills to sneak up on his enemies and slit their throats.

 

[cymric]

I could see Howland Reed could have survived in a toe to toe fight witht he Kingsgaurd for 2 reasons

1.) The Knights of Westero's are trained in such a way that when confronted with a style of combat outside their own they have no answer. We have seen this several times in the books with Arya's Tutor, The Viper, and when Reeds Daughter fights.
2.) It is difficult to fight a man with a spearlike weapon he has two advantages over you. Reach and simplicity. Throw this in with a net and he can hinder you, stab you, submit you, and then pretty much kill you at his leisure.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

2.) It is difficult to fight a man with a spearlike weapon he has two advantages over you. Reach and simplicity. Throw this in with a net and he can hinder you, stab you, submit you, and then pretty much kill you at his leisure.

Unless of course you're fighting Ser Gregor. In that case, it's best to wear some major headgear.

 

[cymric]

When fighting the mountain it is just best to kill him and be done with it The Viper could have outright won if he had just killed the mountain. The Viper's Mistake was toying with the man that cost the viper his life it is as one of my NCO's once told me "when you are in combat always go for the kill" When you toy with an opponent you open yourself to death.


IMO the viper owned that fight until he got stupid and came in TOO close to a man 7 foot plus

 

[red_temple]

I always thought that the Viper wanted Gregor to kill him. Only through his death did Gregor finally confess, and now all of Dorne knows that Gregor is the true killer. Oberyn died for the honor of Dorne.

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

I always thought that the Viper wanted Gregor to kill him. Only through his death did Gregor finally confess, and now all of Dorne knows that Gregor is the true killer. Oberyn died for the honor of Dorne.

The Viper didn't strike me as the sacrifical type.

As Patton said, war isn't about dying for your country. It's about making sure the other poor sap dies for his!
Given the chance to kill his aunt's murderer, I think he went for it and then got suckered in by overconfidence about how 'easy' it was.

 

[Boaz]

Red, I never saw it like that. I think Oberyn had too much to live for. Ellaria's reaction showed her total surprise at the Viper's death. I just read the AFFC teaser chapter The Captain of the Guards and I still don't think Oberyn died willingly... I'd like to discuss the factors involved in his death, but I won't spoil it for anyone... yet.

The Viper was a vastly improved Theon in my opinion. Both were talented fighters, both coveted power, both gave a minimal amount of courtesy to their lords, both were cruel, both planned their days around sex, and neither had a head for strategy.

 

[Jay]

Given the chance to kill his aunt's murderer,.

Elia Martell/Targaryen was his sister.

 

[Raven]

cymric:

1.) The Knights of Westero's are trained in such a way that when confronted with a style of combat outside their own they have no answer. We have seen this several times in the books with Arya's Tutor, The Viper, and when Reeds Daughter fights.

Counterargument: Jorah Mormont vs. Drogo's bloodriders. He more than holds his own. Indeed, we know that many Westerosi knights have served successfully as mercenaries abroad, presumably against a variety of fighting styles. Bittersteel, for example.

2.) It is difficult to fight a man with a spearlike weapon he has two advantages over you. Reach and simplicity. Throw this in with a net and he can hinder you, stab you, submit you, and then pretty much kill you at his leisure.

But Howland was, at a guess, a good eighteen inches shorter than the Sword of the Morning, negating a lot of that reach advantage, and the frog-spears of the crannogmen are short spears, one-handed weapons, while Dawn is a two-hander.

 

[red_temple]

OK, you've all convinced me. I liked the Viper so much, I wanted to believe that he "meant to do that." Too bad he's gone. What a great character - entertaining, cocky, smart - but not smart enough to overcome his overconfidence.

However - do you think that Gregor would have confessed to the public if the Viper hadn't died? Would it have mattered?

 

[Boaz]

Gregor did not care the slightest about the public, imo. He never really has. He cared about being hung as a criminal or assassinated. But in the duel, he got a chance to not only kill Oberyn, but to insult him by letting him know that his revenge was futile and that Gregor was a lying, murderous rapist.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

I agree with Boaz. Gregor doesn't seem to care much about anything. Who's going to take him down? Even if he were to be hung or assassinated, it would take quite a bit to accomplish that. He'd have to be heavily restrained in a Hannibal Lechter type thing.

 

[Trey Greyjoy]

OK, you've all convinced me. I liked the Viper so much, I wanted to believe that he "meant to do that." Too bad he's gone. What a great character - entertaining, cocky, smart - but not smart enough to overcome his overconfidence.

However - do you think that Gregor would have confessed to the public if the Viper hadn't died? Would it have mattered?

LOL, I think I read somewhere something to the effect of, "if you liked the Viper, just wait till you meet his daughters..."
or something like that.

 

[red_temple]

I agree that it doesn't really matter to Gregor, but how about the Lannisters in general? I think his public confession opened some doors and will have some very interesting effects on the relationship between Dorne and the Lannisters. Had he not killed the Viper and confessed his crimes as he was doing it, those doors would have remained closed. Even though the suspicion would still be there, Dorne would almost have to concede that Armory Lorch did the killings from lack of other evidence.

 

[Boaz]

Red, I am surprised that no one tried to link Jaime to Elia's and the children's murders. He slew the king, that's never been questioned. Everyone thinks he killed the king on his father's orders or because Jaime is completely faithless and wanted to be on the winning side. I think it would be natural to assume that Jaime did more than kill just one person in the sack (who cares about Rossart and the Pyromancers?). I think the Dornish could easily be conviced of Jaime's guilt in the murders that concern them.