Jaime!

[asdar]

I'm not so serious as all that, just discussing, but I just can't see how anyone can forgive Jaime. I like the writing that GRRM is doing on his character, don't get me wrong but the best I can hope for Jaime is a quick death.

Might be a spoiler for brand new readers *************



He was actively committing incest, betrayed his brother completely, Killed the king he was sworn to defend, and sat in his throne after and pushed a small boy out a window trying to kill him.

I know that the books have taken a while to write but I can't forget the horrible horrible things he's done. The wall is way too good for him.

 

[ChasenFate]

I don't forgive him, it is more like forgotten in a way. I had no intentions on liking Jamie as a character, but it just happened. I think Martin did a great job an writing it. How many people like Jamie now? I didn't care for his POV at first. I just found myself liking his POV. Tyrion was slightly the same. I was indifferent at first, now I look forward to reading his POV's. I like how he killed his father and Shae. I thought that was done well. I like how everyone hated him, yet he saved them. I do hope Jamie keeps up the good work he is doing. It would be cool if he were to kill his sister. That would be a twist. Oh well I guess I shall wait until the 8th to find out more.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

I don't find Jaime's actions forgiveable, but I do find them intriguing. His character is in the middle of a huge turnaround. I think he's just beginning to discover what a monster he was, and that the world does not revolve around him. I enjoy knowing what goes on in his mind, now that I can see that he's not a mindless killer like Ser Gregor. I like being witness to his transformation from being a narcissistic, arrogant prick to someone who is realizing that he has wasted a great deal of his life and potential on things that have made little or no impact.
Jaime's POVs are very enjoyable to me because he's a character whose worldview has done a complete 180 since we first "met" him. I like Jaime because he recognizes his faults, and he has a very strong desire to change who he is.

Jaime's crimes, like his character, are not black and white. I do hold him completely at fault for committing incest with his sister. However, when you consider the manipulations of Tywin and Cersei, and what a strong hold they had on him both mentally and emotionally, I do think that we cannot judge the murder of King Aerys, the betrayal of Tyrion, or even the attempted murder of Bran, without also giving attention to who his family is and what sort of influence they have on him.

 

[ChasenFate]

I am looking forward to Jamie's POV and I am really looking forward to Arya. I am ready to see her training with the faceless men. I am also looking to see if Jamie can redeem himself more. I am sure Martin won't let us down. Now that the time has slithered towards 5pm, I have to go run mail and get ready to go home. Have a great weekend everyone.

 

[Culhwch]

He was actively committing incest, betrayed his brother completely, Killed the king he was sworn to defend, and sat in his throne after and pushed a small boy out a window trying to kill him.

Yeah, but he did it all with such class...

I like being witness to his transformation from being a narcissistic, arrogant prick to someone who is realizing that he has wasted a great deal of his life and potential on things that have made little or no impact.

I think it's even more than this. Once we were introduced to his PoV, we discovered that he started out as a somewhat naive, idealistic young squire and knight, and then events and personalities conspired (though he was not totally blameless himself) to turn him into the 'narcissistic, arrogant prick' we met at the start of AGoT. Now he is starting to realise the mistakes he has made, and that his fate from here on out is in his hands and his hands alone. He has lost a father - a tragedy and a blessing - and a sister/lover - just a plain blessing - and he suddenly finds himself free of the two driving influences in his life. Free, perhaps, to become that knight he wanted to be as a boy. His page is there to be written. His sins can't be forgiven, but they can be redeemed....

 

[The Blackfish]

I like being witness to his transformation from being a narcissistic, arrogant prick to someone who is realizing that he has wasted a great deal of his life and potential on things that have made little or no impact.

I couldn't have said it better myself!

Yeah, I think that when Jaime lost his hand, he lost the one part of himself that made everything bearable. With his hand he was able to say "Well, everybody hates me because I killed my king, but I'm still a better swordsman than they are." In a sense, his skill with the sword was a shield he held up to protect himself from the subconcious knowledge of what he had become.
Losing his hand was the iced water that woke him to reality. He had to learn to depend on others (ie with Brienne), and found that this was not so easy to do from his ivory tower.

Like others, I am enjoying watching the change in Jaime. He has always been a man of noble intentions, but those intentions had almost been completely crushed by Lord Tywins manipulations. Perhaps now Jaime will find his integrity and come to a measure of peace with himself.

 

[asdar]

I like the PoV, I didn't want to come off against that. I'm just saying when he dies I won't be shedding any tears, whether it's on a gallow or in the field.

One of the great things about GRRM is the way he makes people real and Jaime is one of the greatest examples but still, I can't see ever calling him square with life.

I don't really hold him all that responsible for the incest, what with the Targaryens and all but I do hold him responsible for Tyrion, Bran and Aerys.

 

[Dolorous Edd]

1) He was actively committing incest, 2) betrayed his brother completely, 3) Killed the king he was sworn to defend, 4) and sat in his throne after and 5) pushed a small boy out a window trying to kill him.

I know that the books have taken a while to write but I can't forget the horrible things he's done. The wall is way too good for him.

1) The targaryens did so for centuries, and it was common practice amongst the valyrian's. Yes, it's revolting for us, in our societies, to even think of. But in his world, in his time it's more understandable.



2) He was a young man, doing as his father bid him. No doubt he probably believed that she HAD known, or guessed who tyrion was, and WAS after his money. Besides, Jaime as an adult (or anyone else for that matter) could never stand up to tywins indomptiable will. What chance would he have had as a teenager?

 

[Dolorous Edd]

3) To quote the man himself,

It always comes back to Aery's

. No matter what he does, what he will ever do, people will never forget that he killed Aery's. And I have no problem with that at all. Aery's was insane, he deserved to be killed. Hell, I really doubt that had Robert and co. taken the red keep that they would have banished the guy! But what about his vows? He was sworn to defend Aery's. King slaying dishonours one forever, with no way of removing the stain. Jaime knew that. And yet he killed him. Why? When his father's army were already plundering their way through the city? All he need do was conveniently be off fighting somewhere else, and his hands would be clean. And yet he killed him. Why? It makes no sense whatsoever. So why do it? Perhaps the only duty he could do his king was to kill him cleanly, to deny his king's enemies, his own father, the opportunity to make a spectacle of his death, to have him led screaming through the mob to be hung, or beheaded, or burned.



And his reward for that is to be forever the kingslayer, the man with **** for honour, the man who defiled his sacred white cloak.



I wonder if the noble Arthur Dayne, or the unswervingly loyal Gerold Hightower could have brought themselves to stoop so low? I think not. I put it to you that perhaps Jaime Lannister's killing of Aery's was the truest, most honourable and most selfless thing any of Aery's kingsguard ever did.



4) I recall a POV of his in which he remembers that day. He was tired, needed to sit down. No big deal that.



5) That is unforgivable.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

And yet he killed him. Why? When his father's army were already plundering their way through the city? All he need do was conveniently be off fighting somewhere else, and his hands would be clean. And yet he killed him. Why? It makes no sense whatsoever. So why do it? Perhaps the only duty he could do his king was to kill him cleanly, to deny his king's enemies, his own father, the opportunity to make a spectacle of his death, to have him led screaming through the mob to be hung, or beheaded, or burned.

I think Jaime's murder of Aerys was more personal than that: I think he wanted him dead. Serving a king like was in itself the lowest thing he could have done, and it was entirely against any previous ideas he may have had about it being such a great honor. Jaime had witnessed several things while serving Aerys that would make any man feel as though by turning a blind eye, he was already being dishonorable.
1) The burning of Rickard Stark while his son strangled himself, trying to save his father- Jaime was made to watch in silence while he struggled internally.
2) The plan to torch the entire city with wildfire, should it be taken- Jaime killed the pyromancers and anyone who knew the location of the wildfire pots, so that the orders could not be carried out in any way. Killing Aerys further ensured that hundreds of thousands of people would not burn to death that night.
3) Aerys' request that Jaime bring him Tywin's head, to prove his loyalty- This must have been the hardest part for Jaime, hearing that he must choose between his king and his father
I'm sure there are many more reasons that can be learned in the next books. But, I do not think that Jaime killed Aerys out of pity. I think he loathed Aerys for who he was and what he expected his honor guard to become.

As for Arther Dayne, I do not think he would have killed Aerys. I'm betting that Jaime was privy to the worst of Aerys, since Aerys wanted to keep Tywin's son close at hand. Arther Dayne served Rhaegar and loved him, I believe.

 

[asdar]

I'm all for an honorable man killing Aerys but Jaime wasn't that man at that time, else he wouldn't have sat in his throne after the deed. He killed Aerys with no sign of moral qualms and there was every reason to believe he did it at the request of his father and not because of any moral outrage he felt toward Aerys actions. If he'd killed him out of a sense of honor he should have sent himself to the wall for breaking his oath.

I'm with Delorous Edd on the incest to a degree although I think it was looked down upon at the least if not condemned in the seven kingdoms.

Betraying your brother won't get you death and makes sense but was one of the most condemning acts in the book to me. Even if I could bring myself to forgive the initial action I can't forgive him not going and telling Tyrion the truth earlier. Tyrion was an adolescent at the least and so Jaime had to have been at least a couple years older. Maybe a teen but a world tested man in every sense, a man that had killed in battle by then and should have had the steel to do the right thing by his brother.

The one thing I'd never forgive is what he did to Bran. It might turn out all right and Bran himself could forgive him but I wouldn't.

I love the character development in Jaime, I just condemn the character and can't believe how many people write that they're feeling sorry for him and that they hope he becomes a 'good' character. The thought of him marrying one of the Starks or any of the other fine ladies in the story and becoming a Lord who's respected by all leaves me a bit cold.

 

[Inkreator]

Jaime was a ******* in the begining,but he has his charm.After all he's done surely there is no forgivness...or is there?But he repented,and for that I respect him.He isn't a sniveling dog like some others who change sides as they change boots.For that I admire him,he always stood his ground.
The best thing he said was:
"There aren't people like me.There's only me."

 

[Culhwch]

Okay, so if you started out hating Jaime, then liking him, but not being prepared to forgive him.... What's you're take on Tyrion. You started off liking him, but now he has killed two people in cold blood, only one of whom really deserved it (after all, Shae really was just doing her job). Do you condemn him? Is there an issue of forgiveness, or is there nothing to forgive?

 

[asdar]

Nothing to forgive in my opinion.

Shae wasn't an innocent by any means. If he'd just been killing a lover that proved unfaithful then I'd condemn him as well. She didn't just love him and then betray him, she set him up and betrayed him. That makes her a warrior in the battleground, not of love, but rather of politics and so fair game.

 

[ChasenFate]

I have to agree with Asdar. Tyrion hasn't done anything that needs forgiven. He did what anyone else would have done in his shoes. He won his freedom using Bronn. As Hand defended Kings Landing and his King, eventhough Jeoffery was a monster. He is guilty of being a dwarf. Tyrion is alright in my book. His POV's are always very interesting.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

I never liked Shae, so there's really no pity factor involved there. Shae's "confession" pretty much ruined Tyrion's life for good. Yes, she was just another player in the game, but... she sealed her own fate when she played Tyrion false. If Tyrion hadn't killed her, it's likely that Cersei or Tywin would have done so in his stead. She knew too much and obviously didn't have qualms about selling out to the highest bidder. And with Tyrion, it was personal. He shouldn't have let it become personal, but I'll allow him his few personality flaws, given his past.

I can't, however, say that what Tyrion has done should be forgiven and what Jaime has done should not. In my opinion, they're two apples from the same tree, and they're both capable of great things- they simply have a lot to learn, like all people.

 

[Culhwch]

Interesting. I hated Shae and am glad she met the fate she did. But still, I just thought saying Jaime should be condemned for his murderous actions (particularly the flinging of Bran) and Tyrion celebrated for his might have been a touch hypocritical. I know Bran vs. Shae is not a fair fight, but both were helpless at the mercy of their attackers. Shae was a skirt. Tyrion could have been the bigger man (no pun intended) and walked away, let Cersei deal with her, but he didn't, he chose to murder her in cold blood. So... So, I don't know, but there it is.

 

[asdar]

I didn't feel Shae was helpless. She could have chosen to do other than what she did in a lot of places. She knew what she was getting into when she played the game for jewels from Tyrion. No, she was fair game in my opinion.

I don't think Tyrion is perfect by any means, one of the great things about GRRM is that there are only a few purely evil or purely good characters. Everyone else is gray and that's the way I like it.

The only unexplained and purely evil character I remember is the Mountain. You could say the Targ's had some pure evil but they were explained by madness caused by incest. The only purely good character so far is Brienne, she'll always do the right thing, or at least what she thinks is right.

I hope I don't come off as thinking I'm right or anything. I won't forgive Jaime no matter how complete the change. The best I can do is wish him a good death, but it's ok with me if other people like him. I love the writing of Jaime and meant no criticism that way.

 

[Raven]

asdar: one of the great things about GRRM is that there are only a few purely evil or purely good characters.

well, just off the top of my head, there's the Bloody Mummers. They were pretty evil. Amory Lorch, Walder Frey and some of his brood (Black Walder particularly), the Kettleblacks, Craster, Janos Slynt, Chett, the Boltons, Rolph Spicer, Chiswyck, Raff the Sweetling, the Tickler and some of Drogo's kos were pretty evil too. No shortage of evil characters, IMO: George does them very well.

Ironically there is some suggestion that the Mountain might have more excuse than some of them, since apparently he suffers from dreadful headaches and is a drug addict.

On the purely good side, Davos surely qualifies? But fittingly, there are fewer of those.

 

[asdar]

Maybe a better way to put it would be that most of the evil characters thought they had some reasons to do the evil things they did. The bloody Mummers were pretty evil though.

This is hard to express in the right way but a good example would be Craster. You would think he would fit into the purely evil category because he's so vile but to me I wouldn't put him there because he's got motives from this world. He doesn't beat and kill because he's evil he beats his wives to feel powerful. It's a motivation from within rather than a motivation from below so to speak.

So for people to be wild, rape women and stealing their gold would be bad but not evil, whearas holding a childs face to the fire or killing dogs just for the heck of it seems evil.

Edit: oops, sorry to add this in but Davos was a smuggler breaking the law. He's pretty goody goody now but he's got gray in him in my opinion.