Jaime!

[Boaz]

I know it's never been proven, but I think Shae was planted by Tywin to spy on Tyrion.

Tyrion and Bronn had been with Tywin a few days when Tyrion asked Bronn to get him a woman. Tywin had plenty of time to let Bronn know that all the gold flowed from Tywin, not Tyrion. So Tywin gives Shae to Bronn and Bronn gives her to Tyrion. Bronn claimed he took her off some knight, but that knight never complained to Tyrion. Shae was accomplished in the bedroom, yet looked young, fresh, and innocent... Tywin had a good idea what turned Tyrion on. Then Tywin forbade Tyrion to take her to court... just like Cersei forbidding Robert to fight in the melee, what better way was there to make sure Tyrion kept Shae?

Just my opinion.

So it seems that Jaime, Lancel, and Sandor are all trying to find redemption and atonement for their sins. They all seek to do good now. Lancel, and presumably Sandor, are trying to fulfill the requirements of righteousness through service to the Seven... which I think are false gods. Jaime is trying to do it by himself. Good luck to all of them.

Jaime is a very intriguing character to me. He keeps being put in positions to choose between his family and his country, his honor and his passions, righteousness and expediency, the good of the many and the good of the few, protecting the helpless and gaining glory...

Jaime and Tyrion are my two favorite characters by far. But I see nothing but a horrible end for Jaime (probably Tyrion also).

 

[Raven]

Boaz: the problem with the 'Tywin planted Shae' theory is, what on earth for?

Tywin surely had spies aplenty in KL already. And Shae was not a great candidate as a spy. She couldn't witness anything important that Tyrion did, because Tyrion wouldn't be able to have her around at those times. Besides, she wasn't actually very bright and she knew little to nothing about politics.

And Tyrion was the person he trusted. That was the whole point of sending him to KL to sort out Cersei. Spying on Tyrion made sending him there in the first place rather pointless.

What could she discover that Tywin needed to know and couldn't find out some other way?

And how was Shae going to communicate with Tywin anyway? She couldn't read or write, and in any case Tywin was in the field.

No, it makes no sense.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

The only reason I can think of for Tywin to plant Shae for Tyrion is that it was a potential way to bring Tyrion down without publicly tarnishing his own honor. He used Tyrion to take care of King's Landing in his absence, gained Sansa Stark's inheritence through their marriage, and afterwards had little use for the son he had always hated. The crown was secured. So- that would only leave one glitch: Tywin would have to have been involved in Joffrey's death. Obviously this is a wild theory, but I can see reasons for Tywin wanting Tommen to rule instead of Joffrey. Tommen is tractable, and Joffrey was on the path to becoming another Aerys. Tywin could potentially have taken care of Joffrey and Tyrion all at once.

I'm not saying I believe this. Just speculation for the fun of it.

 

[asdar]

Oooh, that's a juicy conspiracy theory. Tywin involvedin Joff's death.

I don't believe he set up Shae from the start at all but I do think that Bronn was Tywin's man and that Tywin knew about her almost from the very start.

After all my ranting about never forgiving Jaime this is very hypocritical, but I'm starting to like Bronn.

 

[Culhwch]

I didn't feel Shae was helpless. She could have chosen to do other than what she did in a lot of places. She knew what she was getting into when she played the game for jewels from Tyrion. No, she was fair game in my opinion.

I never said she was helpless throughout the duration of her relationship with Tyrion. I meant she was helpless when he found her in Tywin's bed and then choked her to death in cold blood. Much as Bran was helpless when Jaime made him fly...

I don't believe he set up Shae from the start at all but I do think that Bronn was Tywin's man and that Tywin knew about her almost from the very start.

After all my ranting about never forgiving Jaime this is very hypocritical, but I'm starting to like Bronn.

I only think Bronn became Tywin's man in the aftermath of the battle of the Blackwater, when he was elevated to knighthood. Tyrion even suspected as much at the time. I doubt Shae was ever a spy. And I can't believe you like Bronn.

 

[asdar]

She was definitely helpless then but far from innocent, Bran was innocent and helpless.

She knew what she was getting into, she knew that betraying Tyrion meant death, and that no excuse would be good enough. Even if she hadn't been in Tywins bed Tyrion killing her wouldn't make me hate him.

I don't think Tyrion's as pure as the driven snow but I think the crimes of Jaime are much greater.

I'm pretty forgiving overall, I mean Arya has killed a few times and I don't hate her. The difference was that Jaime, as portrayed in his PoV, tried to kill Bran with no emotion or regret at the time. Even later when the regret was shown it was the regret for the complications and not for the act of hurting a boy.

 

[Boaz]

Bran was not innocent. I'm sure he'd done bad things in his life before. But knowingly or unknowingly, he entered into the Game of Thrones when he was born and actively entered when he decided to try and listen in on Jaime and Cersei's conversation. Sure the incest was evil, sure Jaime and Cersei were bad people, sure the Queen and a brother of the Kingsguard should have protected a child... but life is not perfect.

Jaime and Cersei were playing for keeps and Bran chose to spy on them. He had no idea they'd kill him for it. I'm sure he felt he'd be helping his father and continuing the righteousness of his family. But he could have chosen to realize that the conversation was not for his ears and he could've walked away. The fact is that Bran (not realizing the severity of his actions) chose to get involved in the Game of Thrones (thus ending any innocence left)... and it cost him his legs.

 

[asdar]

Bran was a little kid climbing around on a building he climbed many times. He didn't go there to spy, and he was just curious, he was totally innocent.

He was shocked to hear people there and even more shocked at what they were doing. He was totally innocent.

There's a big difference between accidentally seeing something and intentionally taking money from a dangerous man, and even asking for money. I'm not even going to get started on the fact that she was a worldly woman grown and he was a small boy from a rustic kingdom.

 

[Culhwch]

I understand Boaz's point, but it is a long bow to draw... In his defence, Asdar, he's not comparing Shae and Bran, just pointing out that Bran was not entirely innocent.

I think I've decided I like Jaime more than I like Tyrion. Actually, I don't really like Tyrion much at all. Offing Shae was a good move, and doing in Tywin even better, but on the whole, he never really did much for me. Jaime, even when he was dastardly, still had something alluring about him.

 

[Boaz]

asdar, if Bran had been deaf, then his appearance at the window would have been innocent. But he heard the voices before he saw the speakers. He purposefully chose to get a sneak peek of who was talking.

Or if Bran, as soon as he heard the voices, shouted out "Who's there?", then he'd be innocent. But he chose to silently approach the unknown voices and listen.

I'm not saying he deserved his fate. Never. Jaime and Cersei were in the midst of an act taboo in all cultures. Furthermore Jaime's tossing of Bran was unspeakably evil.

Bran had entered into the adult world and the deadly traps therein when he chose to spy on Jaime and Cersei. He could not have known the consequences of his actions, but they happened just the same.

Bran was guilty of entering the Game of Thrones without knowing it.

 

[Dolorous Edd]

asdar, if Bran had been deaf, then his appearance at the window would have been innocent. But he heard the voices before he saw the speakers. He purposefully chose to get a sneak peek of who was talking.

Or if Bran, as soon as he heard the voices, shouted out "Who's there?", then he'd be innocent. But he chose to silently approach the unknown voices and listen.

I'm not saying he deserved his fate. Never. Jaime and Cersei were in the midst of an act taboo in all cultures. Furthermore Jaime's tossing of Bran was unspeakably evil.

Bran had entered into the adult world and the deadly traps therein when he chose to spy on Jaime and Cersei. He could not have known the consequences of his actions, but they happened just the same.

Bran was guilty of entering the Game of Thrones without knowing it.

That's a bit like saying some kid in africa whose doing the daily four hour walk to the nearest water supply is "guilty" of unwittingly entering a warzone, and therefore endangering his life, when he see's he could cut off a bit of the journey by taking a shorter route and accidentally steps on an unexploded landmine.

Or an old lady whose doing her shopping and gets caught up in an armed robbery and gets shot is guilty of unwittingly endangering herself.

Had Bran known what would happen, and he'd still done it he would have been guilty of knowingly endangering himself. Had the kid known there was a landmine there and still stepped on it he'd have been guilty of knowingly endangering himself. Had the old lady known the shope was going to get robbed and still gone she would have been guilty of knowingly endangering herself.

But they didn't. They were the unlucky victims of cruel turns of fate, and the actions of others. Neither of which they have any control over, and therefore no responsibility for.

 

[Boaz]

But they didn't. They were the unlucky victims of cruel turns of fate, and the actions of others. Neither of which they have any control over, and therefore no responsibility for.

Well the kid in war torn Africa or the lady in the city may not have a choice but to cross hostile territory to get food and water to survive. But Bran could've turned and walked away. He did not need to hear the conversation or see the speakers to live.

Robb, Jon, Sansa, Arya, and Rickon did not choose to find out Jaime and Cersei. They lived safe lives. Only Bran chose to put himself into the jaws of the lion. (Pun intended.)

 

[Dolorous Edd]

Well the kid in war torn Africa or the lady in the city may not have a choice but to cross hostile territory to get food and water to survive. But Bran could've turned and walked away. He did not need to hear the conversation or see the speakers to live.

Robb, Jon, Sansa, Arya, and Rickon did not choose to find out Jaime and Cersei. They lived safe lives. Only Bran chose to put himself into the jaws of the lion. (Pun intended.)

Sorry dude, but your really baffling me atm. That's my point, neither of them would have known that it was hostile territory (I mean have you ever gone to do your weekly shop and thought "hey! Today might be the one in a million time that the shops goona get robbed! ****! I'd better put on my kevlar!" ? I expect not. (well, you do live in America, so perhaps yes. )), they didn't know that they were putting themselves in harms way - And neither did Bran.

What do you mean Jon and co. didn't "choose" to find out about jaime and cersei?!?! As they would only have known what it was they were "finding out" after the fact, how could they "choose" not to, before they'd actually done it, by which point it would be too late anyway? The same applies to bran, he did not know what he was getting into.

As far as he was concearned he heard voices in a place that had been uninhabited for years and went to investigate, he had no idea what he would find, he had no idea that he was putting himself in danger. He cannot be held accountable.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

I'm going to have to go ahead and agree with Boaz, here. Regardless of whether or not Bran was aware of the imminent danger of spying or eavesdropping (OH that is just TOO good of a pun! I'm killing myself here. ) on Jaime and Cersei, he was certainly made quite aware of the dangers of climbing around on the old rooftops. It had been a constant source of worry for his mother and the Maester for years.

In addition, if you read the part where he falls, you will note that Bran would have fallen from the tower even if Jaime had not reached out and grabbed him. And, when Jaime reached out and caught Bran's hand, it was Cersei who immediately questioned his action, leading to him tossing Bran away from him. If I had to point fingers at any of them, I'd point fingers at all three. Bran knew he was not supposed to be hearing what they were saying, and he got afraid before even trying to look at who was speaking. Jaime's first instinct was to save Bran's life, but with Cersei's influence, as usual, he did not think with the right part of his body. And Cersei, well... she's a real piece of work.

 

[Dolorous Edd]

Yes, but Jaime DID catch him. He saved him. Had bran climbed over to listen in and fallen, he WOULD be responsible. But Jaime stopped him falling. THEN pushed him. Bran didn't fall because he was climbing where he'd been told not to and fallen. He fell because jaime pushed him. It's exactly the same as if he'd been exploring the corridors, heard noises, enterred the room and then been thrown out the window. That jaime had just previously saved his life doesn't counterbalance the fact that he then tried to kill him. If a bloke and his wife are leaning over a balcony or some such and his wife falls and he catches her and pulls her up, if he then decides "Actually, i wish i hadn't done that. I hate the bitch! She's an awful cook and I wish i'd married her sister" and pushes her to her death, it'd still be murder, and he'd still be arrested, charged and prosecuted for it. (assuming anyone saw him do it.)

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

It's exactly the same as if he'd been exploring the corridors, heard noises, enterred the room and then been thrown out the window.

I disagree, Dolorous. Bran was already in a precarious position when he first heard the voices. After he was spotted by Cersei, he was startled and slipped off of the gargoyle where he was hanging by his scrawny little legs. That does not equate to wandering into a room.

 

[ChasenFate]

If we want to get technical, Jamie and Cersei should have not been in that part of the castle. It was ruined part not in use. What right did they have to go there? Sure Cersei was the queen, and they wanted to bump uglies....Well maybe that is a good enough reason....

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

It's a little harsh to critise a kid for being curious though, isn't it? It's not like Bran knew who he was listening too, until he saw Cersei. I'm not sure, but I don't think he recognised Jamie at all.

Still, possibly Jamie's actions were "needed" to make Bran develop his 3rd eye, which I'm sure will become massively important later on. I know we're getting way off topic here, but what do people think about the 'Crow' in Bran's dreams?
Was it conscious entry into his mind by, say, the Children of the Forest or was it just a metaphor for his 'ability' to express itself?

 

[Cssndra]

No offense, but are you guys nuts? Bran is a child, and when he fell, he had as much guile in him as Sansa's left elbow (in the first novel anyways, by the fourth I wouldn't trust Sansa's left elbow at all ). Everyone starts with the ability to think, but only those of us who make it to adult hood learn the ability to differentiate right from wrong (IMO). Bran didn't have any of the worldliness that would've gotten his tailbone off that roof and back inside.

Also, I'm not a big Catelyn hater really...but her attitude toward Jon really boils my butt. Is Jon really a Stark or his he another Robert byblow?

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

Hi Cssndra. I'm not going to vouch for these guys sanity, but at least it's a different point of view! I happen to agree with you that Bran was far too naive to realise what he was doing, but Cersei was the one who told Jamie to 'dispose' of the prying eyes.

I don't think Jon's one of Robert's bastards for the simple reason that he doesn't 'look' like him, and all of Robert's bastards so far have had the "Baratheon" stamp whereas Jon has the "Stark" look. It seems Jon is definately a Stark - although whether he's Ned's, Lyanna or Brandon's (even Benjen?) is open to debate.

Welcome to the forums, btw