Jaime!

[the_faery_queen]

no i think thats a good point. it does have a nice symatery to it, and it is a contrast to the forced incest that targaeryns dynasty had. these twins choose each other, and they fit together kinda nicely, at first, at least. but as jamie changed and became more mellow, nicer, getting free from cersi, she seemed to loose out and become nuttier! so the balance is thrown off, which i think is partly why i want them to stay together, cos he may rebalance her. who knows!

and yeah, twincest does happen. my friend (granted he lied a LOT) claimed he knew two at his school. but incest, consentual is also common. usually between seperated people thou8gh, granted. you meet up with your sibbling/parent again after years of being seperated and not knowing abotu them, and there is a fairly high proportion of people who in that situation hook up. i guess that's because they weren't raised as sibblings, and being raised alongside someone does tend to take the sexuality out of it all (thank goodness!)

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

Having read a lot of twin studies, and having watched a boy and girl twin grow up, I understand the writer's attraction to the unusual bonds that exist with many twins, whether MZ or DZ (identical or not). However, as Arya Underfoot points out, she is a twin and finds the reality of the idea repulsive--and yet no doubt is very close to her twin (brother or sister?), so I wonder if Martin is too focused on the concept of deep bonds and what that might offer up as symbolism in an imaginary world, and not in tune with the reality of it...(thus alienating some readers?)

The deep bonds shared by twins- well, my take is that it's simply the amount of time spent together, of being grouped together by outsiders (being referred to as "the twins" instead of separate people), being dressed the same. The saddest thing to me is that many people do not encourage their twins to have different personalities and to explore their own interests. I believe this is what happened with Jaime and Cersei until he reached the age where it was time for him to begin his weapon training and her to begin her training as a lady. Being treated as one person by outsiders can really mess with their self-images. Believe me, I've known many twins.

As for the incest part of it, well- it is disgusting, and not because of a cultural reason. It goes against nature. I'm sure we've all heard about secluded towns in places like West Virginia, where the populations were inbred, sickly, and mentally disabled, with weak physical traits. I know that royalty in many different cultures chose to keep the wealth in the family by marrying amongst themselves, but for the rest of us, there are simply biological reasons why we should choose a mate outside of the family.

Sorry- I can see why GRRM would include it in his world, because it does reflect our world in some ways, and it is part of our reality, even if it is not widely accepted. However, even though I understand it, I can't keep my skin from crawling.

 

[sisinaflower]

Fair points about the realities of being a twin! I have seen both types of twin families--the ones where both siblings are dressed the same (seems to happen more with girls!), and another where the mum is so nervous about slipping into that mistake that the brother and sister are hardly allowed to do anything together! I imagine its difficult to be the parent of twin siblings, I would always be conscious of not wanting to do anything to compromise their individuality without taking away from their natural sibling bonding. Probably best (for the kids' sakes) that I only have one child...

In a Feast For Crows I recall Cersei remembering when she and Jaime were very young, they used to switch clothes and pretend to be the other. They seemed to revel in their similarities and choose to be 'the twins'. Maybe this is something some twin siblings like to do, or maybe Martin has the wrong idea about twins?

 

[the_faery_queen]

well incest is bad from abreeding point of view, but as i said, studies to prove that people seperate from birth, who are related, do for some reason find the other relations sexually attractive. its something about going for the same sort of face that you yourself have. i saw it on some sexual study they had on the bbc as well.

but for me, i still find it cool! sorry! i have weird attitude to sex i guess!
but less weird that the people who actually do it

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

I think a lot of people attach a sense of mystery to being a twin that can often be blown out of proportion. I can't tell you how many times I've been asked:

"What's it like being a twin?" Honestly, I can't tell you, because I have no other experience to compare it to. It's like having a sister who's the same age, has the same friends, and is always in your class.
"Can you feel it when she gets hurt?" and "Do you do the 'twin thing?'" - My responses to these questions usually range between biting to playing dumb.

I don't fault GRRM for his portrayal of twins. After all Cersei and Jaime are people, with their own personalities, just as anyone not born a twin would be. They're different people, so I can't say it's not realistic. (Somehow I wonder if I'm making sense here... need coffee...)

 

[JohnSnow]

Could you two get a room?



snow

 

[the_faery_queen]

you make sense and i think it would be cool to be a twin. but then, at the same time, i do like being just me. and knowing i am the only me otu there. and i'd proabbly get really jealous if my twin did better tahn me (again, i can understand cersi for that. for wanting to keep jamie around on her terms. it would bother me if my brother was everything that i would want, and i would probably want to control him to.)

anyhoo, on the repeating circet with me i think. that's spelt wrong. i can't remember how to spell it!

 

[hedgeknight]

You've probably heard the ol' saying:
"Incest is best - put your sister to the test!"
At least that's what they say in West Virginia and some parts of Kentucky.
-g-

 

[the_faery_queen]

hehehe ew!

 

[Brian G Turner]

Okay, let's try and keep it a little calmer in here, g and snow.

 

[Niolani]

In a Feast For Crows I recall Cersei remembering when she and Jaime were very young, they used to switch clothes and pretend to be the other. They seemed to revel in their similarities and choose to be 'the twins'. Maybe this is something some twin siblings like to do, or maybe Martin has the wrong idea about twins?

I have identical twin sisters and they do sometimes pretend to be each other to bug teachers and other people some time but they also want to be treated as individuals while at the same time getting treated equally. They don't cope well if one gets more attention and such but I've noticed the same thing in my cousins who are sisters and two years apart and very disimilar looking, you have to be careful not to favour one in any way.

 

[ScottSF]

Ok I haven't read the whole thread so I may be repeating someone else but, it wasn't till "Crows" that I started to feel Jaeme's redemtion. I think his Kingslayer title is a bad rap, Aerys needed killing by all accounts, but what he did to Bran was unforgiveable. I think his final act of redemtion is pretty clear; he must kill Cersi. In fact I think when Cersi fears that the Imp will kill her she is mis-interpreting her fortune telling. She will be killed by her brother but it will be Jaime. And if I am wrong, then I'll pay for a free round of books borrowed from your local library!

 

[ScottSF]

I spelled Jaime wrong once, I was typing with a band-aid (plaster or elasti-plast for Brits)