Jaime!

[Cssndra]

Thanks a bunch, WS. I confess I've been reading all but not posting, lurking like poor little ole Bran (if you will) for some time.

It's very Machieavellian (sp?) of Cersei to have all Robert's bastards murdered, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised that she tosses Bran to his death. Joff also clumsily trying to have him killed was also quite a nice thread.

Ned is so defensive of Jon...that it makes me think that he's not Ned's child but someone elses. I don't recall him ever making a move to tell Catelyn to be nicer to the boy (and Ned seemed to be a fairminded chap, if a bit naive). But, as you rightly point out, whose child is he?

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

Well, there's reams and reams of theories on Jon's origins and parents, but until GRRM publishes it, it's all speculation & hot air!

Cersei does strike me as a Machieavellian character in that she does all her best work behind the scenes - egging Robert on to dumber & dumber things, until she isolates him enough to bump him off without rancour or rebellion. When she's visibly in power, she tends to overreact & lash out. I think she's discovered it's easier to manipulate than rule!

Have you read any of the Hedge Knight stuff GRRM published? (Short stories set approx 100 yrs before AGoT)

 

[Cssndra]

Nope, have not read any of that. I've been re-reading the Mervyn Peake books lately (and chewing through some poli-sci books as well).

 

[Boaz]

Sorry dude, but your really baffling me atm. That's my point, neither of them would have known that it was hostile territory (I mean have you ever gone to do your weekly shop and thought "hey! Today might be the one in a million time that the shops goona get robbed! ****! I'd better put on my kevlar!" ? I expect not. (well, you do live in America, so perhaps yes. )), they didn't know that they were putting themselves in harms way - And neither did Bran.

But you were the one who described it as a warzone.

Bran showed willful disobedience towards his parents, his nanny, and the guards by climbing after he'd been forbidden. He wanted to live dangerously. Once a person (around the age of three, imo) can consciously decide to do or not do what is right or wrong, their innocence is gone, imo.

Yes, Cersei wanted Bran out of the way. Yes, Jaime flung him from the tower. They are both guilty of Bran's crippling and attempted murder. But Bran knew he was somewhere he should not be, doing something he should not do, hearing something he should not hear, and seeing something he should not see, but he chose to be there, hear them, and see them.

The punishment was far greater than the error. Bran did not deserve to be crippled and suffer amnesia. But then, I doubt even if he could walk and climb that he'd be spying on anyone ever again.

Now it seems that Bran will become a powerful magic user, someone who uses his mind to great effect. Coincidentally, Jaime got into trouble his whole life because he made poor choices, was crippled in a scene where he was even more innocent (in my opinion than Bran, and now is deciding to start using his brain to become a great force for good in the Realm.

Bran chose to spy on Jaime and Cersei... and was caught and crippled. Jaime was on his way to see his father... when he was abducted and crippled. Jaime was punished when he was truly innocent.

Edit: DE, I don't know if I always believe all of what I say. Alot of my argument is just for the sake of playing Devil's Advocate. Of course Bran is good and Jaime and Cersei are evil. And I don't mean to completely make you angry... I enjoy your posts.

 

[Culhwch]

I think you're all missing the real villian here: Ned. It's obviously Ned's fault that Bran fell. If Ned hadn't raised Bran to love and be loyal to his father, then Bran wouldn't have bothered to eavesdrop on a conversation about killing the Hand - his beloved father. Ned should have backhanded Bran once a week for his entire life, and the whole debacle could have been avoided.

Of course, some of the blame must go to every castellan Winterfell has had since that tower fell into ruin and who neglected to either fix it or pull it down entirely. Bran the Builder also must shoulder some responsability for building Winterfell in the first place...

 

[The Blackfish]

LOL!!!! Damn that's funny .... just when this thread was getting so intense too. Thanks Cul, you made me laugh

 

[The Blackfish]

I think the cook must shoulder some of the blame too - for keeping Bran well fed and energised enough to be able to climb.
Also Summer for not protcting Bran like a good direwolf should and climbing up after him ...

 

[Dolorous Edd]

I disagree, Dolorous. Bran was already in a precarious position when he first heard the voices. After Cersei spotted him, he was startled and slipped off of the gargoyle where he was hanging by his scrawny little legs. That does not equate to wandering into a room.

You misunderstand me arya/I didn't phrase it correctly. The point I meant to make was bran's climbing was not what caused his accident; it was his discovery of cersei and Jaime. You make the argument that as he'd been warned of the dangers of climbing he was already knowingly risking his life, and as such bears some responsibility for his mishap. My contention is that had he discovered them another, safer, way (i.e. eavesdropping at the doorway) the outcome would still have been the same had they discovered him (meaning he might not have entered by the window but he sure would have left by it). So the fact that he was climbing when he knew it to be dangerous has no bearing on the events that followed. Does that make sense? It does to me.

But you were the one who described it as a warzone.

How is a shop a war zone? The old lady didn't see her local shop was being held up and decide, "Ah, **** it. I'll risk it anyway." She was in it already when the robbery started. And as for the child in Africa I didn't make myself clear, on reflection. Africa is littered with minefields, many of which no one has a clue are there. The boy's minefield was one such example. He wasn't aware that there was any danger to the shortcut, he hadn't been told by his parents "Always stick to the road, there are mines out there."

Bran showed wilful disobedience towards his parents, his nanny, and the guards by climbing after he'd been forbidden. He wanted to live dangerously. Once a person (around the age of three, imo) can consciously decide to do or not do what is right or wrong, their innocence is gone, imo.

I'm sorry dude but that's ridiculous. No child of 3 is fully aware of the dangers that surround them, and thus able to make informed judgements on what to do. No child of 5 is. No child of 10 is. Hell, I don't really believe anyone EVER completely looses their innocence; we all remain slightly naive to some extent. We are humans, we're not all-knowing. There's always dangers that we are unaware of, things that shock us upon discovery, and things that astound and amaze us. Life would be bloody dull if we all left innocence behind at the age of 3. What on earth would we do with the other 80 + years we have to go?

Yes, Cersei wanted Bran out of the way. Yes, Jaime flung him from the tower. They are both guilty of Bran's crippling and attempted murder. But Bran knew he was somewhere he should not be, doing something he should not do, hearing something he should not hear, and seeing something he should not see, but he chose to be there, hear them, and see them.

Yes, but he did NOT know what he was seeing until he saw it. He did NOT know he should not be there until he already was. I.E. before it was too late.

Now it seems that Bran will become a powerful magic user, someone who uses his mind to great effect. Coincidentally, Jaime got into trouble his whole life because he made poor choices, was crippled in a scene where he was even more innocent (in my opinion than Bran, and now is deciding to start using his brain to become a great force for good in the Realm.

I hope your not saying that as his fall inadvertently seems to have resulted in him gaining potentially awesome magical abilities Jaime actually did him a favour?

Edit: DE, I don't know if I always believe all of what I say. Alot of my argument is just for the sake of playing Devil's Advocate. Of course Bran is good and Jaime and Cersei are evil. And I don't mean to completely make you angry... I enjoy your posts.

Hehe. I'm not mad in the slightest mate. I'm thoroughly enjoying battering away at your untenable position.



To close my argument, ladies and gentlemen of the jury:



[/QUOTE]The state, quality, or virtue of being innocent, as:

1. Freedom from sin, moral wrong, or guilt through lack of knowledge of evil.[/QUOTE]

Bran did not know what he was hearing, what the consequences of overhearing it would be, or that Cersei was an evil bitch and Jaime (at the time) a love struck fool whose thought processes stemmed from below the waist. He was innocent from guilt.

 

[Cssndra]

Here, Here! DE! Well put. Bran is a child, and a sheltered one at that. Did he know what he was really seeing/hearing? Doubt it.

 

[asdar]

Even though I hope Jaime dies a horrible death, I have to admit a certain liking for his PoV.

I badly want him to become a proficient left handed fighter before he gets crushed or poisoned or however he hopefully dies. Dragon fire would be cool.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

You make the argument that as he'd been warned of the dangers of climbing he was already knowingly risking his life, and as such bears some responsibility for his mishap.

Yes, that's my argument, and I'm sticking to it. I don't care whether he's innocent, or whether he's the foulest creature on the face of the planet. Anyone with half a brain, even at the ripe young age of seven or so, can tell you that swinging from gargoyles at the top of one of the highest towers of a castle isn't exactly the safest thing to do. Even if Bran had not been smart enough to figure this out on his own, it has been demonstrated to him what could potentially happen to him. Therefore, I'm going to say that I still hold Bran accountable for sticking his neck where it did not belong. I don't blame him for being curious, and I don't think he's a wicked child. I simply think that with he would have benefitted more from using his brain in that case, and I don't think it would be too much to expect from someone his age.

 

[Boaz]

Exactly!

 

[asdar]

Have you ever been 8 years old? I climbed to the top of a tree that was 50 ft tall and swaying at least 20 feet in the wind and right behind me were my brother and cousin. I didn't deserve to die.

Choosing to climb, as he did every day, cannot be equal to taking jewels having sex with one of the most dangerous men in the realm during war.

There was no war when Bran was climbing, do you think he even thought there was anything he could see that would get him killed? By all accounts he thought his house was a place safe from war and conflict.

Bran didn't make a conscious choice to play the game but Shea sure did. When Bran was climbing there was no game of thrones for the Starks.

I won't argue it anymore as it's all been said, but to equate the two is like equating a single feather to a bar of gold in weight.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

Asdar, I don't recall ever saying that Bran deserved to die, nor did I ever compare him to Shae. So where are you drawing these inferences from?


I did a lot of stupid stuff when I was a little kid, there's no doubt about it. However, common sense did keep me from tempting fate and doing something as drastic as performing acrobatics while hanging off of a crumbling stone tower.

 

[ChasenFate]

::Rearing back leg....Kicking dead horse:: Bran was just a child who ended up in the wrong place at the wrong time. Should he have climbed the towers? No, but as kids we all explore, and do things we are told not to do. Why? It is a part of a growing up....::Kicking Horse Harder::...We can use all these metaphors and analogies and it boils down to this. Does it really matter? It is just a story...::Looking at dead horse..."Sorry pal.."..::

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

Chasenfate, none of this really matters. Not a single thread of this site really matters. None of the subjects being discussed make any difference in our lives. But they do serve as a nice distraction. If there are topics you'd rather not discuss, it's always best to just move on to another thread.

 

[asdar]

I didn't mean to offend. I was talking about the whole issue back to whether Tyrion deserves to die for killing Shae. Sorry, I guess that's lost a few replies back.

Anyway, that's where the comparison started.

 

[Boaz]

Have you ever been 8 years old?

Next year.

I'll stop too... this is not the Bran: Guilty or Innocent thread, it's the Jaime thread.

The reason I like Jaime is that he does the things that I wish I could do.

Well, not that! Come on people!

Jaime says things with no other purpose than to annoy Cleos, Catelyn, Brienne, and the Kingsguard. He does this because he despises their pathetic outward displays of innocence, class, and honor... when he knows that they are just as full of it as anyone.

He knows that he could kill anyone at anytime (except Gregor and Barristan) because of his strength of arms, but the fact that he has to smile and be polite when they call him names drives him to deeper depths of hatred and cruelty. I know he just wants to split the skulls of every knight, lord, lady, and courtier that calls him Kingslayer to his face.

 

[ChasenFate]

It seemed to me that every opinion had been given about Bran. It just seemed to me like people were getting perturbed. I did not mean to offend you Arya or anyone else, If I did I can not do anything about it, but say I am sorry. And I must now continue with this thread.
Since finishing the book I have to say Jamie's PoV has been real interesting. I really am looking forward to see what becomes of him. I hope some how he can get rid of Ceresi.

 

[Cssndra]

Hopefully, Jamie will grow out of his extended adolescence and become a real man. Better than poppa, better than them all.

Jamie and Dany?