Jaime!

[the_faery_queen]

i might. who can say? someone elses' child, nothing to do with me, for whom i have no feelings for whatsoever? to be honest, without causing a huge uproar here, i am not a huge fan of kids. i wouldn't go out of my way to hurt them, but if its my life or theirs, then i would probably take mine. *shrug*

and in this case it was his life AND cersis AND probably her children too, over one child that belonged to someone else. after all, if the affair was discoverd it would call into question their paternity and they might suffer as well for what jamie and cersi had done.

 

[YOSSARIAN]

Cersei never refers to jaime as her "better" half. She sees him as some sort of metaphorical sword that she can wield in place of true steel. Her "love" for Jaime is a farce and a delusion on her part. I don't doubt that she believed she loved him, but we've seen how quickly that love evaporated when she could no longer manipulate him and how quickly her "love" returned when she found herself in trouble. This idea of Jaime being her "better" half is neither implied nor stated, and is in fact contradicted by Cersei's thoughts and actions.

 

[YOSSARIAN]

I'm not saying Jaime did not have solid reasons for attempting murder-just that the reasons don't justify his action. By the way, I'm not a huge fan of kids either; just don't believe you should try to kill one because he saw some creepy brother-sister action.

 

[the_faery_queen]

i think its justifable when you are likely to be hung for treason, and so is your sister, and your kids may also die for being incestous prodcuts. so yeah, i think its justified really. because its his life, and that of his sister and his own children, over some other persons kid. im not syaing he was right to try and kill bran, but what else could he have done? denied it? but ned would have believed bran, that would have led to all the stuff that happened anyway, only earlier. and i think jamie was pretty smart for trying to stop all of this from happening.

and yeah, i don't think she loves jamie particuarlly. but part of that might be because she resents how he got everything simply for being male, while she was denied everything.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

im not syaing he was right to try and kill bran, but what else could he have done? denied it? but ned would have believed bran, that would have led to all the stuff that happened anyway, only earlier. and i think jamie was pretty smart for trying to stop all of this from happening.

I believe I remember Cersei was angry with Jamie for letting go of Bran. She thought it would have been better to simply manipulate Bran and scare him into silence.
Perhaps Ned would have believed Bran, but I don't know if anyone else would have. We all saw what happened when Arya's word was against Joffrey's. For the most part, it seems that people believe what they wish to believe. At that point in the story, Ned had not come across the evidence of Robert's true offspring being dark-haired. I don't know that Bran would have been all that much of a threat, after all.

and yeah, i don't think she loves jamie particuarlly. but part of that might be because she resents how he got everything simply for being male, while she was denied everything.

I believe that Cersei did truly love Jaime, but not in the way that most people love others. Everyone who has read AFFC by now has seen the extent of her narcissism; she loved Jaime because she saw him as a part of herself. He was an extension of her, until he started to think for himself.

 

[the_faery_queen]

i dn't think she loves anyone in the way most people love other people. and yeah, i think part of why she slept with him was because he was part of her. i think sve even said that.

and that is also true, i guess, about the ned not having proof of roberts kids. but who knows? maybe jamie was just being extra careful? i dunno, i just dont' really blame him for that. but then, i don't really blame anyone for anything. i think its just one of those things that got out of control and went a bit nuts everyone did bad stuff, but everyone has had a good reason for what they have done, and i can't blame them cos i have no idea if i would have done anything differently

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

everyone did bad stuff, but everyone has had a good reason for what they have done, and i can't blame them cos i have no idea if i would have done anything differently

Hee hee, you're the opposite of Asdar, then.

I must say, I love the variety of people, personalities, and opinions on this board.

 

[the_faery_queen]

i guess so! but thats why i love martin, i guess, cos you can see reasons for everything everyone did, but whether you accept those reasons as good enough or not comes down to personal judgement

and yeah i like the variety here. i also like that people don't jump on me (not too much!) when i dare to dislike a writer that others seem to adore!

 

[sisinaflower]

and yeah, i think part of why she slept with him was because he was part of her. i think sve even said that.

I thought it was very interesting when Cersei stopped 'being true' to Jaime, while Jaime, with all his dubious morals, remained true to Cersei. They loved each other differently, it seems, but more to the point, if Cersei loved Jamie, and loved having sex with him because he was part of her, what process was happening in her head when she started to leave him emotionally?

If I correctly recall it, she left him emotionally while he was away (I cant remember if she thought he was dead or not), but when he returned she never really went back to him. She seemed to despise him (because he wasnt 'whole' any more?), but did this have any reflection on what she felt about herself?

It was at this point that she also started showing the full extent of her arrogance and stupidity, is it connected, or is it just coincidence? This is also the point where she started to have more freedom to show her stupidity...

Lots of variables occuring all at once, which ones caused the others? I see her personality development manifested in her sexual actions, and its interesting to compare she and Jaime in this. Where Cersei is degenerating before our eyes, Jaime seems to be having a slow, silent epiphany as a result of the loss of his hand. Dare I say it, he is changing into an honorable man.

And further, Jaime remains in love/lust with Cersei until the moment at Riverrun when he receives her desperate message and crumples it up and throws it into the fire. What happened there?

(Apologies--thoughts rambling over breakfast)

 

[direghost]

Jaime remains in love/lust with Cersei until the moment at Riverrun when he receives her desperate message and crumples it up and throws it into the fire. What happened there?

That's definitely not true. Tyrion's parting words at the end of SoS really messed with Jaime's head and interfered with their relationship.

 

[sisinaflower]

I agree, Jaime kept replaying those words again and again, but even at the moment when he was saying goodbye to Cersei he still wanted to have sex with her. The replays of Tyrion's words happened more and more frequently after he left kings landing, as if the truth was finally sinking in. His crumpling the paper seemed to me to be the conclusion to the long train of thought.

But this is a less important point than the rest of what I was trying to work over, about what impact Cersei and Jaime's decisions about how they felt about each other had on their own character development.

 

[the_faery_queen]

what words? cos i can't remember (unless its feast of crows, in whcih case not read it yet!)
i feel sad for the jamie-cersi thing going to hell, just because i liked it. yeah it was twincest and kinda gross, but the gross thing made them both seem like more tragic figures. they were like a bizzare romeo and juliet, in love but couldn't be together (obviously) and i liked that about them. so i am kinda sad with the whole idea of them falling apart, or of her having been using him (which is a strong likihood) i also feel bad for her, really. that she cant have or love anyone properly. that she had jamie, but she never loved him in a selfless way, teh way most epople should love, and she never really had robert either. i feel bad for cersi because i think she is rather lonely!

anyhoo, i think cersi was only the woman she was, at least, could only be as strong as she was, because she had jamie to back her up. he was her physical strength. without him, she doesnt have much of anything.

 

[direghost]

well I don't want to spoil it for you, if you read Feast for Crows you'll be reminded of the words again and again....

I think if you want to blame anyone for Cersei, it's Twyin but at some point you just have to think she brings it all upon herself.

 

[sisinaflower]

Its weird, but I was hating Cersei all the way through all the books--interesting character, but horrid woman. Then in A Feast For Crows I felt sorry for her!! I think because I was finally seeing the pathetic side of her nature as created by her father...but yes, we all choose our own destiny, free will etc, and Cersei is very much to blame for what befalls her.

Not trying to be too obtuse...just trying to not spoil it for faery queen...! Read it! What are you waiting for?

 

[the_faery_queen]

i dunno what i am waiting for! i am not in teh right book reading head, and i guess a sad part of me, doesnt' want to read abotu jamie and cersi falling apart cos i like them *cries*

and personally, i do blame cersi's dad. he made her. he married cersi off, he made her feel useless. he told her she wasn't as good as jamie, even after robert died he wanted to marry her off again! and then you have robert, who cheated on her, called her another woman's name, i think that cersi is a product of a lot of other people being crap to her, and what she did was just her way of getting some security, but it kinda went wrong

do we know what happened to cersis mum? she died, right? having tyrion (probably? cna't remember!) so not having a woman around also probably did a bit of damage.

 

[JohnSnow]

t_f_q I found it humorous that you find some compassion for one of the most evil characters in the book!! Gotta love what each person sees in the same characters.

I often harass Catelyn and Cersei, but in a sense a lot of the things that are said have substance. The lives that both women have "lived" (according to Martin) have made them who they are.

Also, in some ways I wished I had not read the book and just waited for the next one to come out.

No offense to Cersei, but a majority of the book focused on her and was like "rolling naked in broken glass painful" for me. At least until the last 100 pages!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

snow

 

[the_faery_queen]

i found it funny that you found it funny i dunno, i just get them. i get cersi, and it helps that i fancy jamie, and find the incest thing kinda cool, in an odd way. its like a twisted romeo and juliet, but i said that before.

and thats why i like martin so much. his world has truly shaped his characters. a lot of the time i find that the world and the characters that a writer has come up with don't go together, that they grate, that you cna't understand how someone has ended up how they are in that world. but with martin, his characters and his world fit together, the world has made everyone who they are, and that's what makes is so great. he's one of the few writers who i think has done a good job of world/character effecting each other.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

and find the incest thing kinda cool, in an odd way. its like a twisted romeo and juliet, but i said that before.

That's as close to a vomit-face as I can find. The incest thing is just plain disgusting. As a twin, I find it particularly disgusting that they are twins as well. Just reading about it makes me want to bathe.

 

[the_faery_queen]

aw! well its different if you're a twin,i geuss! and i do have a brother, so its not like i dont' get that its kinda gross to think of two sibblings together. but i do think it cool, moreso because they ARE twins, but also because of teh way they are togehter. he's a cold strong fighter, shes a cold mad person, and then they get together and are all hot and passionate and less cold.

ok so now i am rambling off! i can see how most people find it gross, but to me, its cool and lots of other positive things.

but i know i am not alone! twincest is a big slasher thing. i know my friend loved the idea of the matrix twins getting it on. *shrug*

 

[sisinaflower]

Ive heard of twincest in real life (not often though!) but I think the 'appeal' here is more the abstract symbolic, the literary creation. What Martin offers is an idea of one person split in two, and both with complimentary personalities, but both eventually developing in different ways, eventually becoming different persons. I wonder what will happen to one if their twin is killed? Will they also 'have to die' (according to whatever rules of symbolic logic Martin is following here) or will the surviving twin thrive once free of the other?

Having read a lot of twin studies, and having watched a boy and girl twin grow up, I understand the writer's attraction to the unusual bonds that exist with many twins, whether MZ or DZ (identical or not). However, as Arya Underfoot points out, she is a twin and finds the reality of the idea repulsive--and yet no doubt is very close to her twin (brother or sister?), so I wonder if Martin is too focused on the concept of deep bonds and what that might offer up as symbolism in an imaginary world, and not in tune with the reality of it...(thus alienating some readers?)

And yet, there are lots of things in the books that would be repulsive on our real world! I think in describing the Targaeryns as a dynasty that married siblings to each other Martin was trying to set the scene that twincest isnt really that bad in this culture (sure people are disgusted by it, eg Uncle Kevan, but not in the way we would be here, today).

For me, I would not like to get passionate with my siblings, twins or not, but I think it works well as part of their characters in the book. It shows depravity and weakness at the same time, and it offers them room to grow (grow better or grow worse).

Sorry...my usual breakfast ramblings! Perhaps a thread of sense in in here somewhere....