Green
Sick and Tired
If it's part of his plan, then it's a crap plan. To bring a character back from the dead is to belittle any emotional response you had to their death.
Bonehunters
- Thread starter Mulch
- Start date
SPOILERS
Cutter didnt die, neither did scillara. An implied death isnt a death. grey frogs a demon for god sake so what does that matter.
As for kalam, i didnt find anything wrong with what happened. It was used to force apsalar to act and to make lostara deal with pearl. Emotionally it was quite an impact because you were left thinking kalam was dead. Yet knowing erikson and when pearl mentioned the poison taking time it seemed to me that someone was going to save him. first read i thought banascher was going to save him or someone like that, but even still i was happy with the end.
the only bit i didnt like really was dujek's death. All that just to succumb to a plague when we werent even there to witness it. Now that is copping out.
Cutter didnt die, neither did scillara. An implied death isnt a death. grey frogs a demon for god sake so what does that matter.
As for kalam, i didnt find anything wrong with what happened. It was used to force apsalar to act and to make lostara deal with pearl. Emotionally it was quite an impact because you were left thinking kalam was dead. Yet knowing erikson and when pearl mentioned the poison taking time it seemed to me that someone was going to save him. first read i thought banascher was going to save him or someone like that, but even still i was happy with the end.
the only bit i didnt like really was dujek's death. All that just to succumb to a plague when we werent even there to witness it. Now that is copping out.
Green
Sick and Tired
bendoran said:
They should have died, is my point.
And if you bring the demon argument into it, then why not have greyfrog fly faster than a speeding bullet, leap tall buildings in a single bound and be more powerful than a locomotive? Then, he could teleport into the CG's warren, poison him with just a wink of his eye, and then get back in time to save Kalam from the spider poison. He could do all of this if you just explain that he's a demon.
Would make for a weak plot device though.
that wasnt my point, my point was that you dont know anything about greyfrog. i didnt particularly care for his character so if erikson wanted to make him shrink in death then fair ewnough, its an interesting take on death. as for cutter and scillara, well he should have been killed, but it wasnt instantaneous, he just ot his guts iopen. not ripped apart mind just released
and scillara was stabbed through the shoulder, eriskon was very exact in his descriptions of both, to imply a death wund but not force a death. One of my friends was stabbed in the throat a few years ago and he didnt die. But if you were reading in a book that someone was stabbed in the throat you would assume they were dead. people are in some cases very resilient, while in others death can come swiftly for what seems minor.
ultimately it comes down to personal choice. i enjoy when books use misdirection. i dont see it as a weak ploy. No one stood there and went yes this charcter, hes dead oh and so is that one. Even reading it, i knew they couldnt be. You cant take an entire thread halfway through book 6 that has been building since book 3 and just cut it. People would be so pissed off. imagine they all died bar felisin, you would be ripping, thinking what was the point in all that crap up to then? no instead eriskon led you one direction, then went, ha! he took what seemed the most slow moving and pointless thread in the book and rocketed it forward with that scene. good writing in my book
and scillara was stabbed through the shoulder, eriskon was very exact in his descriptions of both, to imply a death wund but not force a death. One of my friends was stabbed in the throat a few years ago and he didnt die. But if you were reading in a book that someone was stabbed in the throat you would assume they were dead. people are in some cases very resilient, while in others death can come swiftly for what seems minor. ultimately it comes down to personal choice. i enjoy when books use misdirection. i dont see it as a weak ploy. No one stood there and went yes this charcter, hes dead oh and so is that one. Even reading it, i knew they couldnt be. You cant take an entire thread halfway through book 6 that has been building since book 3 and just cut it. People would be so pissed off. imagine they all died bar felisin, you would be ripping, thinking what was the point in all that crap up to then? no instead eriskon led you one direction, then went, ha! he took what seemed the most slow moving and pointless thread in the book and rocketed it forward with that scene. good writing in my book
Green
Sick and Tired
I disagree. I think it was unbelievable that either of those two characters lived (Scillara got a T'lan Imass sword through her chest and out through her back. Cutter was eviscerated. Both of these strike me as mortal wounds). It was also convenient that Greyfrog had a way to cheat death. In fact, the only one of the four involved that actually died was Heboric. And even he came back, briefly.
It was their deaths that moved the story on, not their survival. That they survived shows that Erikson was running pretty low on ideas for these guys, imo. He should have found some other way to make them interesting.
And I agree that having them all die would have been a disappointing dead-end to the thread. I was disappointed with the whole Heboric situation - I'd have rather he had been the sole survivor (at least he's interesting). But having said that, if they had all died, I would have at least believed it.
It was their deaths that moved the story on, not their survival. That they survived shows that Erikson was running pretty low on ideas for these guys, imo. He should have found some other way to make them interesting.
And I agree that having them all die would have been a disappointing dead-end to the thread. I was disappointed with the whole Heboric situation - I'd have rather he had been the sole survivor (at least he's interesting). But having said that, if they had all died, I would have at least believed it.
williamjm
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Rosemary said:Ah but we shouldn't forget though, that this is a fantasy series...
So surely things which seem strange or wrong to us, such as making the characters stay dead, should not surprise us in the least...
It isn't so much a question of plausibility, but more that resurrecting characters continually reduces any dramatic impact their deaths may have. Doing it too often (as, say, Robert Jordan does) is poor storytelling. Erikson isn't too bad at it, although arguably he still does a bit too often, but at least when characters do return they rarely seem to be unscathed by their experience.
Characters appearing to be dead, but shortly after turning out to somehow survive without dying is less annoying. It is a fairly cheap storytelling trick to build up a bit of temporary suspense for a couple of chapters but it is reasonably effective as long as it isn't overused.
@green- well scillara was stabbed not with a massive blade like say Karsa's but a scimitar which is thin and curved. She wasnt stabbed in a lung or anything, so why would she die? The only cause would be shock, death or infection. The townsfolk found them quickly and although they feared for her, loric turned up to cure any fever she had.
cutter is a harder one, but sure watch dog soldiers and sean pertwee was alright after his guts came out, all that happened him was he became a werewolf that aint so bad now, is it?
cutter is a harder one, but sure watch dog soldiers and sean pertwee was alright after his guts came out, all that happened him was he became a werewolf
that aint so bad now, is it?Well at last I have finished reading The Bonehunters…
I have to admit I am still finding it a little hard to work out which character belongs to which tribe/army though.
The part that remains strong in my memory is when Kalam (with the ironic help from Cotillion) are climbing on one of the Sky Keeps where Quick Ben the High Mage and Corporal Stormy are. Again Erikson’s dry wit is much in evidence and something that I do enjoy.
I was very happy to read more about some of my favourite characters, such as Sgt Fiddler, Icarium and Heboric Ghost Hands and also Apsalar who is not Apsalar The Assassin.
I still feel that I will have to read the entire series, once it is completed, to fully appreciate the Malazan Series.
I have to admit I am still finding it a little hard to work out which character belongs to which tribe/army though.
The part that remains strong in my memory is when Kalam (with the ironic help from Cotillion) are climbing on one of the Sky Keeps where Quick Ben the High Mage and Corporal Stormy are. Again Erikson’s dry wit is much in evidence and something that I do enjoy.
I was very happy to read more about some of my favourite characters, such as Sgt Fiddler, Icarium and Heboric Ghost Hands and also Apsalar who is not Apsalar The Assassin.
I still feel that I will have to read the entire series, once it is completed, to fully appreciate the Malazan Series.
I'm having a reread sometime later this year.I can see me rereading this series even more than Feists Riftwar.
Rereading for the enjoyment
Rahl Windsong
Last of the Windsong Clan
I think Erikson's Malazan series really needs to be reread as some point, its just so complex and so many characters no way can you take it all in with one go.
As for the bit about Kalam's death being still in question, or is he trapped in the Deadhouse? The thing is we all knew even if he died that he would ascend so I was pretty sure a different fate awaited Kalam, and that is the part that bothered me the most, am I starting to be able to predict which way the story will go now? Erikson seems to be unable or unwilling to actually let someone die and leave the story, has he become so attatched?
Now having said that I suspect there is a reason for this talented author's apparent lack of the intestinal fortitude to actually kill someone important off. Hopefully as the end to this fantastic story draws near we will be astounded instead of knowing when Erikson reveals his reason for ever lasting life after death. Why MUST they all be there? That is the burning question I have now.
Rahl
As for the bit about Kalam's death being still in question, or is he trapped in the Deadhouse? The thing is we all knew even if he died that he would ascend so I was pretty sure a different fate awaited Kalam, and that is the part that bothered me the most, am I starting to be able to predict which way the story will go now? Erikson seems to be unable or unwilling to actually let someone die and leave the story, has he become so attatched?
Now having said that I suspect there is a reason for this talented author's apparent lack of the intestinal fortitude to actually kill someone important off. Hopefully as the end to this fantastic story draws near we will be astounded instead of knowing when Erikson reveals his reason for ever lasting life after death. Why MUST they all be there? That is the burning question I have now.
Rahl
Jason_Taverner
Fish Proder
just finished it really enjoyed it
Lostara
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Rahl Windsong said:
Rahl - I can understand your point, but he has killed a few off. WJack is dead and gone. Looks as if Dujek has had his chips. Itkovian's a gonner, as is Felisien (mind you I'm glad she's gone!). Pearl had a rather nasty demise and in the very first book poor old Calot was blasted to bits.
If he did kill Kal I think I would have to sue for the trauma I would undoubtedly suffer!
Brys
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Ok, I've just finished it. I plan on doing a blog post on it in quite a bit more detail, but here are my thoughts.
The Bonehunters was a disappointment. IMO it's one of the weakest in the series, possibly the weakest. It was more polished than GotM in terms of writing, but not a lot - and GotM had an aura of fun that was mainly lacking in TBH. And it didn't possess the same seriousness that Deadhouse Gates, Memories of Ice or Midnight Tides did. There were good ideas in it - but they just weren't used well. I've never said this before about an Erikson book - but the Bonehunters felt drawn out and badly paced. Y'Ghatan came much too early to be a serious climax, and then there were about 300 pages following it in which barely anything happened. And then there was a great ending, but the Icarium part had to be condensed into about 10 pages, when it needed a lot more.
As I said, there were good ideas - eg Y'Ghatan, Dujek's death, Kalam's death, but it felt poorly executed to me. Y'Ghatan was too early on and then didn't have anything like the power of Capustan or even Coral, Dujek died, but it lacked impact because it was pretty much the first sight of him in the book, and Kalam's death was too... heroic. He survived much too long (seriously, 3 people against literally 100s of assassins? He barely survived at the end of DG against a tiny proportion of the claw) and dragging him into the Azath gives the irritating implication that he didn't die.
That said, the Wickan pogrom idea was very good.
And Hedge still being alive (ok, dead, but can still existing) was a terrible mistake. That was ridiculous and it ruins his death in Memories of Ice. That was the worst moment of the book.
Ok, I did enjoy the Bonehunters, especially the last book (which other than being a little over the top was generally pretty good), but I had thought Erikson was improving as the series went on, especially in the basic aspects of writing, but this read more like Gardens of the Moon than any of the others, and it wasn't a worthy successor to Midnight Tides. I saw potential in this, but unlike in the previous books, it wasn't realised.
So an order of the series so far:
1. Memories of Ice
2. Deadhouse Gates
3. Midnight Tides
4. House of Chains
5. The Bonehunters
6. Gardens of the Moon (these last two are interchangeable - Gardens is more fun than BH, but BH could have been a much better novel than GotM and there's a lot of evidence in the book that it could have been more, while GotM's about as good as it could be).
Edit: I've now posted a review on my blog: http://illusoryreality.blogspot.com/2006/07/bonehunters-by-steven-erikson.html
So Kalam survived? I wasn't sure about what happened then, but if Kalam truly survived that completely ruins that ending for me. The final battle was a little OTT but generally quite good, but if Kalam survived it's a wasted scene, because it shows he's an unkillable character. I had thought Erikson above this.
The Bonehunters was a disappointment. IMO it's one of the weakest in the series, possibly the weakest. It was more polished than GotM in terms of writing, but not a lot - and GotM had an aura of fun that was mainly lacking in TBH. And it didn't possess the same seriousness that Deadhouse Gates, Memories of Ice or Midnight Tides did. There were good ideas in it - but they just weren't used well. I've never said this before about an Erikson book - but the Bonehunters felt drawn out and badly paced. Y'Ghatan came much too early to be a serious climax, and then there were about 300 pages following it in which barely anything happened. And then there was a great ending, but the Icarium part had to be condensed into about 10 pages, when it needed a lot more.
As I said, there were good ideas - eg Y'Ghatan, Dujek's death, Kalam's death, but it felt poorly executed to me. Y'Ghatan was too early on and then didn't have anything like the power of Capustan or even Coral, Dujek died, but it lacked impact because it was pretty much the first sight of him in the book, and Kalam's death was too... heroic. He survived much too long (seriously, 3 people against literally 100s of assassins? He barely survived at the end of DG against a tiny proportion of the claw) and dragging him into the Azath gives the irritating implication that he didn't die.
That said, the Wickan pogrom idea was very good.
And Hedge still being alive (ok, dead, but can still existing) was a terrible mistake. That was ridiculous and it ruins his death in Memories of Ice. That was the worst moment of the book.
Ok, I did enjoy the Bonehunters, especially the last book (which other than being a little over the top was generally pretty good), but I had thought Erikson was improving as the series went on, especially in the basic aspects of writing, but this read more like Gardens of the Moon than any of the others, and it wasn't a worthy successor to Midnight Tides. I saw potential in this, but unlike in the previous books, it wasn't realised.
So an order of the series so far:
1. Memories of Ice
2. Deadhouse Gates
3. Midnight Tides
4. House of Chains
5. The Bonehunters
6. Gardens of the Moon (these last two are interchangeable - Gardens is more fun than BH, but BH could have been a much better novel than GotM and there's a lot of evidence in the book that it could have been more, while GotM's about as good as it could be).
Edit: I've now posted a review on my blog: http://illusoryreality.blogspot.com/2006/07/bonehunters-by-steven-erikson.html
So Kalam survived? I wasn't sure about what happened then, but if Kalam truly survived that completely ruins that ending for me. The final battle was a little OTT but generally quite good, but if Kalam survived it's a wasted scene, because it shows he's an unkillable character. I had thought Erikson above this.
Last edited:
Rahl Windsong
Last of the Windsong Clan
We are not sure about kalam, but the thing is we are not really sure about anyone in this story, are they dead or just moved on to their next part of life? Someone in this post said that some characters are dead and have stayed that way. Well all I can say to that is the series is not over yet, until it is I say they might still be a part of the story in their new form. Whiskeyjack was mentioned as being dead and staying dead, well the thing is he is a Bridgeburner and we all know they all get to ascend, so WJ ain't dead either, err well he's dead but still in the story. Anyone want to bet WJ shows up in a future book?
I thought Erikson was above things like this but....
Byrs: Your review says it all for me, exactly my thoughts about BH.
Rahl
I thought Erikson was above things like this but....
Byrs: Your review says it all for me, exactly my thoughts about BH.
Rahl
Brys
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I really hope Whiskeyjack doesn't show up again - until BH I thought these dead people who still exist were the exceptions - the whole idea of the abyss suggests that they wouldn't be able to just come and talk to their old friends, doesn't it? Strangely enough, those who seem to die most completely seem to be the gods, while mortals ironically keep coming back to life (in various forms).
Erikson said (after MT) there would be one more resurrection in the series, and it's what everything is leading to. I have enough faith in Erikson that he won't bring back Whiskeyjack and he tends to pay attention to what his fans say, and I gather I wasn't the only one disappointed with the Hedge scene, so maybe the dead will start to stay dead if we're lucky.
Erikson said (after MT) there would be one more resurrection in the series, and it's what everything is leading to. I have enough faith in Erikson that he won't bring back Whiskeyjack and he tends to pay attention to what his fans say, and I gather I wasn't the only one disappointed with the Hedge scene, so maybe the dead will start to stay dead if we're lucky.
Green
Sick and Tired
Good review - I agree wholeheartedly with pretty much everything in there. I posted one on this forum a while back...
http://www.chronicles-network.com/f...iew-of-the-bonehunters-by-steven-erikson.html
And I think Ben has one a few threads down, too.
http://www.chronicles-network.com/f...iew-of-the-bonehunters-by-steven-erikson.html
And I think Ben has one a few threads down, too.
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