Destiny of the Stark kids! (spoilers imminent)

[3EyedCrowsEye]

I still don't think Cersei is much of a target. Would killing her really make anyone here happy? I.e. it's kind of too good of a fate for her. It would be like simply killing Walder Frey. Death isn't always the ultimate comeuppance.

Walder likes having kids and cersei likes having corrupt sex, they will be forced to do it till they die

 

[NenadBulaja]

The house of White and Black, is just pretty name for the ugly business they are in. Kindly man is not kind, and once given the choice between renouncing Needle and putting herself in mortal danger (which even she must be aware of) or fulfilling her wish of becoming FM so she can go through with her list, Arya of house Stark may choose more prudent choice. Ned didn't die yelling that he is loyal to true king Stannis and that he did the right thing, he tried to save himself renouncing his actions, although he knew he was right.

One thing that I think go in favor of time skip is that it will take time for Arya to become true FM, and her POV would be much more interesting with sexual component of young woman, than girlish tomboy.

Cersei may not be around for Arya to kill, even with all the help from Strongenstein, she is making so many bad calls that she can not survive for long without Divine intervention.

 

[Tywin]

Why are we assuming that Arya has to actually 'become' no one in order to pass the test of the Kindly Man? She just has to learn to lie convincingly. It also makes sense as a practical matter for the 'Faceless Men' since their whole modus operandi is to disguise themselves.

Walder likes having kids and cersei likes having corrupt sex, they will be forced to do it till they die

Genius.

 

[Mesanna]

Walder likes having kids and cersei likes having corrupt sex, they will be forced to do it till they die

I feel slightly unclean after reading this.

Why are we assuming that Arya has to actually 'become' no one in order to pass the test of the Kindly Man? She just has to learn to lie convincingly. It also makes sense as a practical matter for the 'Faceless Men' since their whole modus operandi is to disguise themselves.

This is true. Didn't she already fool the Kindly Man when she warged into the cat while she was still blind? He assumed she now has super-duper spidey senses, but really she cheated.

 

[The Imp]

I feel slightly unclean after reading this.



This is true. Didn't she already fool the Kindly Man when she warged into the cat while she was still blind? He assumed she now has super-duper spidey senses, but really she cheated.

This is why I think her final test will be to give him Needle. She either will or won't, it's not something she can lie about.

 

[Needle]

This is why I think her final test will be to give him Needle. She either will or won't, it's not something she can lie about.

I think you are probably right about her final test Imp. She will not do it!

 

[The Imp]

I think you are probably right about her final test Imp. She will not do it!

Valar morghulis

I think she'll fail the test and in doing so win Starkness. I can't wait until the day sxhe is reunited with Nymeria

 

[viZion]

Valar morghulis

I think she'll fail the test and in doing so win Starkness. I can't wait until the day sxhe is reunited with Nymeria

And how does she get out of being assassinated by the Faceless Men after she fails? There's no way they just let her leave with all of those skills and knowledge of their techniques and organization.

 

[Slovian]

And how does she get out of being assassinated by the Faceless Men after she fails? There's no way they just let her leave with all of those skills and knowledge of their techniques and organization.

They say that she can still leave the order. But I also don't think they would just let her do it. They give her choice to leave, but probably at that point if she would take that path, they would just give her the gift.

 

[Tywin]

This is true. Didn't she already fool the Kindly Man when she warged into the cat while she was still blind? He assumed she now has super-duper spidey senses, but really she cheated.

I don't mean that she can "cheat" the system set up by the faceless men, what I mean is that the goal of their entire system might be to just make sure that their agents can lie and disguise themselves perfectly enough to fool people.

A human being cannot become "no one", these are not the Borg from Star Trek who can lose their individual identity. The point is not for her to no longer be Arya of House Stark, the point is for her to get so 'faceless' that no one could ever tell that she is Arya of House Stark.

Varys was Varys, no matter how convincing his disguise, and Jaqen H'ghar seems to have an individual personality as well.

 

[NenadBulaja]

This is true. Didn't she already fool the Kindly Man when she warged into the cat while she was still blind? He assumed she now has super-duper spidey senses, but really she cheated.

I don't think she fooled him. She just managed to fulfill task he asked of her, although he doesn't know how she did it, and that is all that counts, so he allowed her to progress.

They say that she can still leave the order. But I also don't think they would just let her do it. They give her choice to leave, but probably at that point if she would take that path, they would just give her the gift.

Correct. They are secretive order which have roots in old Valyria. People in the books know very little, if anything about them. Does anyone think that they could keep that kind of low profile for almost thousand years by just allowing any unsuccessful candidate to walk around telling about everything he saw in temple.

I don't mean that she can "cheat" the system set up by the faceless men, what I mean is that the goal of their entire system might be to just make sure that their agents can lie and disguise themselves perfectly enough to fool people.

A human being cannot become "no one", these are not the Borg from Star Trek who can lose their individual identity. The point is not for her to no longer be Arya of House Stark, the point is for her to get so 'faceless' that no one could ever tell that she is Arya of House Stark.

Varys was Varys, no matter how convincing his disguise, and Jaqen H'ghar seems to have an individual personality as well.

And yet we have proof that people can be brainwashed enough to give their life for some "higher cause" in our own world.

Faceless men wrap themselves in religious doctrine of not killing someone, but presenting him a "gift". In order to become instrument of their god they must erase their own personality, since, if they have their own moral guidance or personal agenda, they are not "instruments" fulfilling the will of higher being, but plain killers. And that trick, unfortunately, is already used by many organizations in world we live in.

My belief also is that at some point of training Arya will be forced to make a choice. But I believe that she will renounce Needle (sorry Needle), and to choose becoming full fledged FM.

However, her bond with Nymeria can not be broken that easily, and her wolf dreams will continue, since they are magical in nature. Giving her opportunity to renounce FM after she meats Nymeria.

Varys is not FM. Jaqen did have personality, human without one would stick from the crowd like a elephant in the glass shop, and wouldn't be very efficient as an undercover assassin. Question is - is it his personality or is it the one he used as best suited for the mask he was wearing.

 

[Needle]

I don't mean that she can "cheat" the system set up by the faceless men, what I mean is that the goal of their entire system might be to just make sure that their agents can lie and disguise themselves perfectly enough to fool people.

A human being cannot become "no one", these are not the Borg from Star Trek who can lose their individual identity. The point is not for her to no longer be Arya of House Stark, the point is for her to get so 'faceless' that no one could ever tell that she is Arya of House Stark.

Varys was Varys, no matter how convincing his disguise, and Jaqen H'ghar seems to have an individual personality as well.

Tywin brings up a great point here! I think we (I anyway) have focused too literally on "no one" If you can seem to be no one, you can be seen as any one.

My belief also is that at some point of training Arya will be forced to make a choice. But I believe that she will renounce Needle (sorry Needle), and to choose becoming full fledged FM.

However, her bond with Nymeria can not be broken that easily, and her wolf dreams will continue, since they are magical in nature. Giving her opportunity to renounce FM after she meats Nymeria.

I do not believe the bond between Arya and Nymeria can be broken either, I feel it is a blood bond, yet Needle is the physical embodiment of that bond to herself. It is her symbol, as important to the story as the dragons or Lightbringer. When Ned lost his head, the Starks lost Ice and it has been downhill ever since. The swords of the Great Houses are a part of their identity. Granted Needle is not Valaryian steel but she is the blade that remains to the Starks.

Forgot to add the quotes here but if the general feeling is that Arya will not be allowed to just walk away from the FM if she doesn't complete her training, she certainly would not be allowed to become a full fledged FM and then walk away. Sounds like a sure way to be given the gift!

 

[Tywin]

Forgot to add the quotes here but if the general feeling is that Arya will not be allowed to just walk away from the FM if she doesn't complete her training, she certainly would not be allowed to become a full fledged FM and then walk away. Sounds like a sure way to be given the gift!

I would be highly disappointed if she doesn't become more powerful than the faceless men. Starks have been ruling for thousands of years. Their lineage and their power goes back longer than the faceless men, and I hope to see GRRM give primacy to the power of the Old Gods and the blood of the First Men.

 

[The Imp]

I would be highly disappointed if she doesn't become more powerful than the faceless men. Starks have been ruling for thousands of years. Their lineage and their power goes back longer than the faceless men, and I hope to see GRRM give primacy to the power of the Old Gods and the blood of the First Men.

Just so

Little Arya, with the limited FM skills she has right now becomes infinitely more powerful than ANY FM when you add her ability to Warg. All she needs is a little time and a little maturity.

 

[viZion]

Wrote this while a bit tipsy. I've saved the original text and I'll repost it when I'm sober and cna clean it up a bit without offending anyone . Sorry.

 

[Timba]

Just so

Little Arya, with the limited FM skills she has right now becomes infinitely more powerful than ANY FM when you add her ability to Warg. All she needs is a little time and a little maturity.

I agree with you and Tywin. My general feeling is the FM have bitten off more than they can chew, they simply do not know it yet.

Of course my opinion may be colored by how much I love this character but I just can't believe that this extremely detailed storyline will simply abruptly end by Arya being given the gift nor by losing herself. Her "list" could not reasonably be expected to remain if she loses herself so I just do not think this will happen. Add in the connection to Nymeria and her ability to warg and we may be looking at the most dangerous person on the planet with a little more time.

 

[NenadBulaja]

Did anybody read chapters in ADwD from character called Reek?

Don't tell me that someone can not lose himself in ASoIaF, because it isn't so!

But as someone loses himself he can struggle and regain himself, proving that what he regained is worth the struggle!

I don't want to read ASoIaF where everything goes smooth, where characters make only the "right" choices. When somebody you know can kill you asks "Is this your sword, and are you Arya of house Stark" and our little hero steps up and says "Yes I am!" knowing she might lose her life? Would you do it? I've read ton of similar books, and they don't start to compare with ASoIaF, exactly because heroes in this series are miles away in reality from unbelievable saints as heroes are depicted in most fantasy books.

My firm belief is that Arya is capable and intelligent girl, ready to make great sacrifices in order to get what she wants. I also believe, taking rest of GRRM's writing in consideration, that destiny will not just roll the carpet for her and make her most powerful being on planet. She has tough choices ahead, and I believe that she will not choose sentimentally, but practically.

And only, and I mean ONLY, when the time is right will she unleash her wrath on all those that did her wrong. And as later it comes, more spectacular will it be.

 

[The Imp]

Did anybody read chapters in ADwD from character called Reek?

Don't tell me that someone can not lose himself in ASoIaF, because it isn't so!

But as someone loses himself he can struggle and regain himself, proving that what he regained is worth the struggle!

I don't want to read ASoIaF where everything goes smooth, where characters make only the "right" choices. When somebody you know can kill you asks "Is this your sword, and are you Arya of house Stark" and our little hero steps up and says "Yes I am!" knowing she might lose her life? Would you do it? I've read ton of similar books, and they don't start to compare with ASoIaF, exactly because heroes in this series are miles away in reality from unbelievable saints as heroes are depicted in most fantasy books.

My firm belief is that Arya is capable and intelligent girl, ready to make great sacrifices in order to get what she wants. I also believe, taking rest of GRRM's writing in consideration, that destiny will not just roll the carpet for her and make her most powerful being on planet. She has tough choices ahead, and I believe that she will not choose sentimentally, but practically.

And only, and I mean ONLY, when the time is right will she unleash her wrath on all those that did her wrong. And as later it comes, more spectacular will it be.

There's a character in aDWD called Reek? JK

The HUGE difference between Arya and Theon is that Arya is not undergoing systematic torture and being forced to bury her true identity. SHe is always given a choice, which is that she has the freedom to leave whenever she likes. SHe is told by The Kindly Man that she can have her eyesight back and SHE chooses to remain blind. It actually just hit me that Arya has been forced by circumstances to adopt almost a myriad of identities, yet she never loses herself in any of those persona. I'll ammend what i said in the beginning and say that I think that Arya would find a way to kill Ramsay if she underwent what Theon did. She's incredibly strong willed, and I think that's one of the reasons that she is such a good candidate for the FM. She WON'T lose herself. Everyone has been saying the test is to give up Arya and become No One. Maybe she fails if she does

I agree that she will be very powerful, and I wouldn't want to be on her list. I beleive that Arya will be one of the plot devices GRRM uses to thin out the population and close some plotlines

 

[Tywin]

Everyone has been saying the test is to give up Arya and become No One. Maybe she fails if she does

Absolutely agree. There is no practical use for an assassin to 'be' no one, however given the FM's modus operandi being able to 'seem' to be no one is essential.

 

[The Imp]

Absolutely agree. There is no practical use for an assassin to 'be' no one, however given the FM's modus operandi being able to 'seem' to be no one is essential.

It actually makes more sense that someone who has to take the identity of someone else in doing their job be able to retain their true one. kind of like an undercover cop.