Destiny of the Stark kids! (spoilers imminent)

Woah! That's a great theory Neede, even feels like a spoiler to be honest. I think that would be the best way of writing the story, because I think it will be a stretch for GRRM to claim in WoW that Jon simply survived his wounds.
 
Thanks Yog! Never heard it called a spoiler before (I like it!). I have my fingers crossed though and am sure it is at least mostly right!
 
Ned and Robert :
Direwolves are said to only live north of the wall. This direwolf ventured south and got itself killed after meeting a large stag. It’s puppies were left to fend for themselves. I think this symbolizes the future deaths of Ned Stark and Robert Baratheon. Ned went south to Robert (The Baratheon sigil is a stag) and both ended up dead. After this, the Stark children learned to grow strong on their own. Also, there’s one ******* puppy and one ******* Stark.

STARK CHILDREN
Robb: At the Red Wedding, Robb caged Grey Wind just like he had unknowingly caged himself in the Twins. The only reason why Grey Wind wasn’t killed before Robb, is that this would make Robb’s death too predictable.

Jon: Jon locked up Ghost in his room, just like he locked himself up in a room with his treacherous fellow members of the Night’s Watch.

Sansa: Because of Joffrey and Cersei, Ned has to kill Lady, at Roberts order. This symbolizes how Ned takes Sansa to KL at Roberts order, where she is treated so badly by Joffrey and Cersei that she feels like wanting to dying.

Arya: Just like Nymeria, she is set free into the wild world and has been growing stronger (Nymeria with her wolfpack, Arya with her Faceless Men).

Bran: Still together with Summer, and both still alive.

Rickon: Still together with Shaggydog, and both still alive.

The names of the direwolves are not predictions about the future, but represent the personality of each of the Stark children. A personality that is shared by the direwolves themselves.
Only Stark children who’s direwolves survived, have the ability to warg. (If this is true and no Stark dies without his or her wolf dying too, than this means that Jon survived the attack.)
 
somewhat offtopic, Arya Stark is as awesome on tvn as she is in the books.
Her interaction with the Hound is priceless. Makes me feel sorry for the hound who is being all kind to the stark children. Seems to me he has a soft spot for little girls. (in a not perverted way)
 
I don't think needle's theory is right. Here's some points that don't fit:
- Jon's doesn't have warg experience, it seems unlikelly he can warg into a corpse all of a sudden.
- In each chapter we read the story with the point o view of a character, and so we know his thought's. For the theory to be right, Jon's thought's must be misleading the reader (because if so we would read some thoughts about Jon not being in his body) and doing so i think it would be like the author was cheating.
- When he ears the screams Jon wonders if the corpses escaped: "“Is it wights?” asked Rory. Jon wondered. Could his corpses have escaped their chains?". If he was using one of the bodies he would not think that.
- Jon's last thoughts actually seems like someone that is dying: "“Ghost,” he whispered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end.". If he was not in his body and so not in mortal danger he would not think this.

I do not intend to offend Neddle, it's just my opinion, the theory doesn't makes sense. But i'm looking for a healthy discussion on this. Neddle can you try to explain my points with you theory? Maybe i didn't fully understood it?
 
To be honest, I hope Bran becomes the legendary greenseer and that Jon is in fact the son of Rhaegar. It would be cool.

As far as Sansa and Arya are concerned I stopped caring a long time ago about both characters. Arya's chapters are so boring that I almost fall asleep reading them. Sansa is finally starting to get it but I stopped giving a crap about her somewhere in the second book.

Rickon, well I have nothing bad to say about the little kid. If he does become the next Lord of the North, that's fine by me.
 
A fun exercise...

I wouldn't want to try predict the outcome, given the complexity of the story, and Martin's willingness to blindside us, so what follows is not my prediction, but rather, say, my "wishlist" of the fate of the Starks;

Jon Snow
He has been killed, but Melisandre uses the well-established abilities of the Red God to revive him. He uses the technicality of his "death" to honourably free himself of his Nightswatch oath. While he unites with Melisandre for a time, his fate is ultimately tied to Daenerys, his aunt. Together they are responsible for throwing back the White Walkers, with the support of the Stark family and their supporters.

Catelyn Stark
As Lady Stoneheart, acts as a pitiless counsellor to Sansa Stark, and directs her towards an utterly mercilessly treatment of her enemies. After all the Lannister children have been killed, Catelyn will be the one who kills Cersei.

Sansa Stark
My personal favourite, and the most ripe with potential. As she grows and matures, her traumatic experiences and involvement with Littlefinger harden her into a ruthless, cunning, and clever player of "The Game". She outplays Littlefinger, becoming a dominant ruler (either a Queen of a divided Westeros, or a major noble), and deftly leads the reunited Stark siblings in a ruthless and bloody war of revenge on their enemies. She honours her marriage to Tyrion, and they form an unlikely but perfectly matched alliance. Tyrion somewhat counters Catelyn's influence on the "Ice Queen".

Arya Stark
Reunited eventually with her sister, Arya becomes a shadowy and emotionless killer, slowly working through her list, and acting as an extension of her sister's will.

Bran Stark
Merges with his tree and is elevated to a higher level of awareness, brings forth the Children of the Forest to ally with Jon and Daenerys in their battle against the White Walkers.

Rickon Stark
A wild and out-of-control monster, on occasion let loose by his family to terrorise their enemies, but eventually has to be caged and/or killed because he can't be controlled.
 
Gumboot said:
A fun exercise...

I wouldn't want to try predict the outcome, given the complexity of the story, and Martin's willingness to blindside us, so what follows is not my prediction, but rather, say, my "wishlist" of the fate of the Starks;

Jon Snow
He has been killed, but Melisandre uses the well-established abilities of the Red God to revive him. He uses the technicality of his "death" to honourably free himself of his Nightswatch oath. While he unites with Melisandre for a time, his fate is ultimately tied to Daenerys, his aunt. Together they are responsible for throwing back the White Walkers, with the support of the Stark family and their supporters.

Catelyn Stark
As Lady Stoneheart, acts as a pitiless counsellor to Sansa Stark, and directs her towards an utterly mercilessly treatment of her enemies. After all the Lannister children have been killed, Catelyn will be the one who kills Cersei.

Sansa Stark
My personal favourite, and the most ripe with potential. As she grows and matures, her traumatic experiences and involvement with Littlefinger harden her into a ruthless, cunning, and clever player of "The Game". She outplays Littlefinger, becoming a dominant ruler (either a Queen of a divided Westeros, or a major noble), and deftly leads the reunited Stark siblings in a ruthless and bloody war of revenge on their enemies. She honours her marriage to Tyrion, and they form an unlikely but perfectly matched alliance. Tyrion somewhat counters Catelyn's influence on the "Ice Queen".

Arya Stark
Reunited eventually with her sister, Arya becomes a shadowy and emotionless killer, slowly working through her list, and acting as an extension of her sister's will.

Bran Stark
Merges with his tree and is elevated to a higher level of awareness, brings forth the Children of the Forest to ally with Jon and Daenerys in their battle against the White Walkers.

Rickon Stark
A wild and out-of-control monster, on occasion let loose by his family to terrorise their enemies, but eventually has to be caged and/or killed because he can't be controlled.
Click to expand...

NICE
I especially like the idea of Rickon being a wild and uncontrollable monster.

I hope when all is said and done and a aSoIaF is complete, that Martin writes a short story or novella that is set 200-300 years in the future of westeros, with characters talking about the legendary heroes...

King Rickon Stark, called Rickon the Bloody Wolf. the King in the North

Lord Devon Seaworth, called Devon the Devout, Lord of Dragonstone and warden of the east.

Ser Jaime Lannister, Kingslayer, queenmaker, the Handless Hand.
 
Jon

I agree that he will probably not stay dead and that his technical 'death' will free him from his oaths. i feel he has a crucial role in the battles to come and may end up marrying Dany.

Sansa

To be honest I don't care

Bran

His tale seems nearly over. He will be a seer perhaps with some influence on events but mainly an observer.

Arya

This is where it gets very interesting in my opinion. For an author who loves grey characters, in this case rather than going down the standard route of taking a seemingly evil character and humanising them. He has taken a character who most love and is taking them down a very dark road. Everything has been taken from the warm hearted little girl we encountered in book 1 and all she has left is hate. I very much doubt she would become an assassin for her sister but neither do I think she will become a faceless man. I think she will get her vengeance but its form will shock many. Cersei's other children are fated to die and it wouldn't surprise me if they are part of the 'list' Arya works through.
 
If Jon is revived and he is still Jon Snow, he is not freed from his oath. The oath stands.

If a man or women who is married dies during an operation and are revived are they still not married? Are they free from their vows?

After all the warnings about being to young to take the oath, Jon pushed for it and now he should have to live with it.

The nights watch did nothing wrong when they killed him. He broke his oath, that carries a death sentence. If he is revived does the nights watch then take his head? Or is he still lord commander?
 
grip junky said:
If Jon is revived and he is still Jon Snow, he is not freed from his oath. The oath stands.

If a man or women who is married dies during an operation and are revived are they still not married? Are they free from their vows?

After all the warnings about being to young to take the oath, Jon pushed for it and now he should have to live with it.

The nights watch did nothing wrong when they killed him. He broke his oath, that carries a death sentence. If he is revived does the nights watch then take his head? Or is he still lord commander?
Click to expand...

I think you actually touched on something we (at least I) had not really considered. Jon broke his vows, was essentially a deserter of the night's watch, and has been executed by his sworn brothers. The price of desertion is death and he paid that price. If he comes back to life, he still paid the price of desertion. it is not so much that he is free of his oath, it is that he already paid the price of breaking his oath. The oath is no less broken.

Your example of marriage doesn't really fit. Think of it like this...

If a man cheats on his wife, and his wife finds out and kills him, and then he comes back to life, he still cheated on his wife. if he keeps sleeping with his mistress, should he be concerned what his wife thinks?

Having said that, I really hope Jon stays with the Night's Watch. I want him to remain true to his oath, even though he basically already broke it... again...
 
ArstenWhitebeard said:
The price of desertion is death and he paid that price. If he comes back to life, he still paid the price of desertion. it is not so much that he is free of his oath, it is that he already paid the price of breaking his oath.
Click to expand...

I suspect the plot reason for Jon being attacked was precisely to get him out of the night's watch - which so far has kept Jon outside of Westeros politics and given him leadership and survival training.

Now he's "dead" it can hardly be claimed that he would be still bound by any oath.

I doubt any leadership taking over from Jon is going to argue otherwise.
 
ArstenWhitebeard said:
I think you actually touched on something we (at least I) had not really considered. Jon broke his vows, was essentially a deserter of the night's watch, and has been executed by his sworn brothers. The price of desertion is death and he paid that price. If he comes back to life, he still paid the price of desertion. it is not so much that he is free of his oath, it is that he already paid the price of breaking his oath. The oath is no less broken.

Your example of marriage doesn't really fit. Think of it like this...

If a man cheats on his wife, and his wife finds out and kills him, and then he comes back to life, he still cheated on his wife. if he keeps sleeping with his mistress, should he be concerned what his wife thinks?
Click to expand...

In the eyes of the law they would still be married. He would have to divorce her.
 
I said:
I suspect the plot reason for Jon being attacked was precisely to get him out of the night's watch - which so far has kept Jon outside of Westeros politics and given him leadership and survival training.

Now he's "dead" it can hardly be claimed that he would be still bound by any oath.

I doubt any leadership taking over from Jon is going to argue otherwise.
Click to expand...

If he is revived he would not be dead. I have known a lot of staff ncos and officers would argue that he is still bound by his oath
 
Given the words of his oath "Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death" and their literal meaning then he would be released from his oath. Using modern laws from a select group of cultures to assess a situation in a fantasy world doesn't really work.

I personally would still feel bound by my oath, but then again it just said "defend the Constitution" and didn't mention any expiration date ;)
 
I think Josh hit the nail on the head when he said that using our modern laws and culture doesn't really work in the fantasy setting.

The law that governs Jon Snow and his relationship with the Night's Watch is not the US Constitution or the UCMJ. He is bound by "Magic" and whatever laws that follows. Traditionally "Magic" throughout literature has been pretty focused around little technicalities of the words used (think about stories of genies granting wishes, or about the meaning of prophecies from soothsayers and such).
 
the point I was trying to make was that Jon broke his oath BEFORE he was stabbed. Why would he care about keeping it after he is revived?
 
Tywin said:
I think Josh hit the nail on the head when he said that using our modern laws and culture doesn't really work in the fantasy setting.

The law that governs Jon Snow and his relationship with the Night's Watch is not the US Constitution or the UCMJ. He is bound by "Magic" and whatever laws that follows. Traditionally "Magic" throughout literature has been pretty focused around little technicalities of the words used (think about stories of genies granting wishes, or about the meaning of prophecies from soothsayers and such).
Click to expand...

The whole Jon dies is revived and is free from his oath is juvenile to me. I like Martins books for the most part. I am not one of his fan boys. This last book was not worth the 6 year wait, but one thing I can say is that it was not juvenile. None of the books are. Their are all kinds of Fantasy books out there that suck for this very kind of thing. It would be better for Jon to just have had the balls to brake his oath and take what he wanted.

If he is alive he is not dead. Need not be any more complex than that. If one of the nights watch dies for one second is he free from his oath?
 
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