The Dragon Has Three Heads

[viZion]

I also liked AFFC a lot better on the second read. That may be because the second time I read it as part of a reread of the entire series. The first time I read it was after waiting four years (or however long it was) for it to come out. It's a book that works best if you read directly after ASOS.

Also, I don't think anyone knows that Robb named Jon his heir except for the few people in the room when that will was signed. That's how I remember it at least. Was it mentioned in AFFC that Stannis knows that Jon was named Robb's heir?

 

[Robin Goodfellow]

No it wasn't mentioned in AFFC it was just an aside that has been bugging me for a while. Even if he didn't know the Stark line decends from the first men, and the old King In The North, that's more kingly blood then the Mance's son to be sure.

 

[Boaz]

Spoilers ahead...

I I am thinking Arya will return to Westeros, and reunite with her Direwolf. Since George R.R. Martin says all the Stark children are wargs I am thinking Nymeria will act as Arya's eyes. What with her being blind and all.

This is a new idea... at least it is for me. Interesting.

As to Ned Dayne and Jon Snow being switched in the crib... this is also new. This would mean that ...
1. Eddard got a son on some unwed Dayne girl... Ashara would be the most likely... and he'd have done this after getting married, thus dishonoring himself.
2. Rhaegar fathered a son on Lyanna.
3. In an attempt to throw Robert off the scent (in his hunt for Targs), Eddard took his ******* son (half-Stark, half-Dayne, but this has to be Eddard's son because he looks so much like a Stark that it is readily evident to everyone) to Winterfell and put Rhaegar's son (half-Targ, half-Stark, but the Targs and the Daynes both are descended from Valyrian blood so they have similar hair and eyes) into House Dayne.
4. In grief over her lover killing her brother, her lover leaving her for his wife, and her lover taking her son and giving her the Crown Prince's ******* in exchange, Ashara commited suicide.
5. Lord Dayne must have formally adopted this ******* son of Rhaegar. Would any of the Daynes know this secret or did Ashara take it to her grave?
6. Not knowing his own past, Lord Snow repeats the actions of his own father by switching baby boys in an attempt to save royal blood from being spilled.

That last one is very compelling... the rest, not so much.

 

[Ursa major]

Interesting thoughts, Boaz (and xLORDSNOWx).

5. Lord Dayne must have formally adopted this ******* son of Rhaegar. Would any of the Daynes know this secret or did Ashara take it to her grave?

I'm not one hundred percent au fait with the legal system in Westeros, but wouldn't a formal adoption have to be known (by whom) and recorded (where)?

 

[Boaz]

Absolutely, Bear. So, Ashara cannot have been the mother... some other scenario is needed to make this plausible.

 

[xLORDSNOWx]

In my research of House Stark, i was also amazed at how many King Jon's there were (5) not to mention the different variations such as Jonnel, Jonas.

The following is from Wiki: (If anyone trusts the accuracy of such)


No precise lineage of House Stark is known, but the individuals listed below are supposed to be in rough chronological order.

• Bran, the Builder, founder of house Stark and the first King of the North, builder of Winterfell castle and the Wall.
• King Theon, the Hungry Wolf
• King Jon
• King Brandon, the Shipwright, loved sailing and built up a mighty Northern fleet.
• King Brandon, the Burner, burned the entire Northern fleet after the disappearance of his father on the Sunset Sea.
• King Jon
• King Jonnel
• King Jon
• King Dorren
• King Jon
• King Jon, built the castle of White Harbor after driving away sea raiders.
• King Rickard, defeated the Marsh King extending their kingdom to include the Neck.
• King Rodrick
• King Edrick
• King Benjen, the Bitter
• King Benjen, the Sweet
• King Eyron
• King Edderion, the Bridegroom
• King Walton, the Moonking
• King Brandon, the Bad
• Karlon, a younger brother of the king and founder of the Karstarks.
• King Jorah
• King Jonos
• King Edwyn, the Spring King
• King Bran, the Daughterless
• Torrhen, the King Who Knelt, The last King in the North, who bent the knee to Aegon the Conqueror, making the North part of the Seven Kingdoms.
• Cregan, who fought Aemon the Dragonknight
• Brandon
• Barth
• Jonnel
• Rodwell
• Beron
• Donner
• Artos, the Implacable
• Willam
• Edwyle
• Rickard, killed by order of King Aerys Targaryen at the start of Robert's Rebellion.

 

[MeeraReed]

okay, i only got to about page 10 so forgive me if I am repeating something...
I believe one of the dragon riders will be a Martell. Specifically Arianne.
When House Martell submitted to the Targaryens, King Daeron II married the sister of the then Prince of Dorne, Maron Martell. Maron then married Daeron's sister Daenerys. So not only do the Martell's have the "required" Targaryen blood, but specifically the blood of a Daenerys Targaryen.
Arianne was intended to marry Viserys. I believe she may be the rider of Viserion.
Viserion's color is pale and gold, the same color as desert sand.
Prince Doran plans to ally with House Targaryen.
I may be stretching things, I know.

I have no idea who the other may be, but I don't think it will be a Lannister.
Is it likely Dany will allow Jaime to ride a dragon, the murderer of her father? I think not.
Tyrion, maybe. Since he was never truly accepted as a Lannister and he killed Tywin, Dany may not view him as a true Lannister either. And all that talk about wanting a dragon is a bit too obvious for me. If he does join up with Dany, I think it will be as an adviser. Tyrion always seems to get shafted, I don't see any reason for that to change any time soon.

Jon is a likely possibility, if he is Rhaegar's son. Didn't Dany have a dream of Rhaegar standing over a baby saying he is the one of ice and fire or what not? I believe Dany will know when (and if) she sees Jon if he is Rhaegar's son.
(I also believe Ghost is the embodiment of one of the old gods. He is the exact coloring of a heart tree after all. but anyway...)
If it is Jon, he will ride Rhaegal.

Arya, I don't know...it just doesn't fit for me. She is in somewhat close proximity to Dany (I think) and I don't believe she will become a Faceless Man. I don't think she'll ever let go of the fact that she is a Stark of Winterfell.

Meh, who knows? It could very well be characters we haven't even met yet.

I don't think Dany will ever rule Westeros. I think she's going to die defeating the Others.

 

[No One]

Arya, I don't know...it just doesn't fit for me. She is in somewhat close proximity to Dany (I think) and I don't believe she will become a Faceless Man. I don't think she'll ever let go of the fact that she is a Stark of Winterfell.

Hi Meera - I think someone has to really grasp at straws to make an argument of Arya as the third head (put simply, Jon is surely one of them, while Tyrion and, as you say, a Martell remain strong possibilities.).

Regarding Arya as a Faceless Man, I want to believe you're right, but it seems to me that the following words between the kindly old man and Arya have a certain inevitability about them:
"Who are you?"
"No one."
"Just so."

Whatever that means for Arya in the long term, those words would be as good as a death sentence to someone, up to and maybe even including Dany (or Jon - just because I think it's the only way Martin could top the tragedy of the Red Wedding).

Either way, I don't see a happy future for Arya.

 

[The Imp]

Hi Meera - I think someone has to really grasp at straws to make an argument of Arya as the third head (put simply, Jon is surely one of them, while Tyrion and, as you say, a Martell remain strong possibilities.).

Regarding Arya as a Faceless Man, I want to believe you're right, but it seems to me that the following words between the kindly old man and Arya have a certain inevitability about them:
"Who are you?"
"No one."
"Just so."

Whatever that means for Arya in the long term, those words would be as good as a death sentence to someone, up to and maybe even including Dany (or Jon - just because I think it's the only way Martin could top the tragedy of the Red Wedding).

Either way, I don't see a happy future for Arya.

I think the point of Arya training to become a Faceless Man is not that she will eventually become one, but rather, she will learn to become a perfect killer. She still has her list of people to finish off.

There's also the whole issue of who controls The Faceless Men and is Arya being groomed to be part of a greater plan which has as it's goal the control of Westeros.

In any case, I don't see Arya being in the House of White and Black very long.

 

[Boaz]

okay, i only got to about page 10 so forgive me if I am repeating something...

Obviously, you are a slacker... you'll never forge you Poester's Chain this way. I'll go ahead and tell you to forge your very own Poester's Chain... 1). Don't read anyone else's posts except your own. 2) Post frequently. 3) Post the most inane thoughts you have. 4) Quote your own posts as often as you can. 5) Post off topic as frequently as possible. Hey, if it worked for me, then it can work for you too.

I believe one of the dragon riders will be a Martell. Specifically Arianne.

Interesting...

Tyrion always seems to get shafted, I don't see any reason for that to change any time soon.Others.

Ouch... probably too true.

I also believe Ghost is the embodiment of one of the old gods. He is the exact coloring of a heart tree after all.

Interesting...

Arya, I don't know... I don't believe she will become a Faceless Man. I don't think she'll ever let go of the fact that she is a Stark of Winterfell.

If you reread Jon's chapters, you'll be frightened of how many times he compares Ygritte to Arya. I'm telling you, people, that Jon will hook up with a daughter of Eddard Stark... He may really have feelings for Arya, but he likes redheads and he'd have a political future with Sansa.

I don't think Dany will ever rule Westeros. I think she's going to die defeating the Others.

Yeah... I'm not convinced either way yet. If Dany dies, then either her older brother, Tyrion, or her nephew, Jon, will rule... and I don't see anyone bowing to the Imp nor do I see Jon leaving the Wall. .......or this means that her nephew, Aegon, wins out and takes the Iron Throne, the Dragons, Sansa, Arianne, Margaery, and any other nubile princesses out there...

And, Meera, if you don't want a Poester's Chain, then try for a Paester's Chain... just copy and paste other people's posts to make your own... Salud!

 

[No One]

I think the point of Arya training to become a Faceless Man is not that she will eventually become one, but rather, she will learn to become a perfect killer. She still has her list of people to finish off.

There's also the whole issue of who controls The Faceless Men and is Arya being groomed to be part of a greater plan which has as it's goal the control of Westeros.

In any case, I don't see Arya being in the House of White and Black very long.

I'll happily jump on that idea - much more preferable to what i see happening.

I had considered before that the Faceless Man training would be just one more aspect of Arya's conditioning , but the repercussions in dealing with the House of White and Black are no doubt far more severe than anything else she's committed to. The old man made it clear what her training would cost her, so it seems to me that she either becomes a Faceless Man or she doesn't. There are no half measures, unlike her training with Syrio. Assuming she does become one, then remembering Needle under the step or seeing Bran or Jon again would seem to be too simple a solution for Martin to 'bring her back'. Also, with the rate people seem to be dying, I'm not sure if there'll be anyone left on Arya's list by the time she returns to Westeros. Maybe Cersei, but her fate seems to point elsewhere (literally, in Jaime's hand/s I think).

Oh well, in the meantime, I'll look forward to Arya tearing up the riverlands through Nymeria. Then again (and I've only just thought of this) doesn't warging imply some kind of connection to the Starks' old gods? That would create another kind of conflict altogether wouldn't it? agh...I could speculate forever (my therapy has turned into my addiction!).

As for who leads the Faceless Men and their agenda - you're right these will likely dictate a lot that happens with Arya, and they're both big mysteries so far. I remember posting the idea that Jaqen (or maybe another FM) assassinated old whassisname Greyjoy on the bridge (Euron?), but I can't say to what end. Then there's the citadel, what exactly Jaqen was doing in King's Landing, etc...

It's just a pity that the next book probably won't answer even these questions, let alone the multitude floating about.

Even so, thanks for reeling in my pessimism . Commencing shutdown...my waffling is making even Boaz look spartan with words.

 

[No One]

Re: old whassisname...

Make that Balon Greyjoy.

 

[Jarmel]

I already know this post is probably going to tick some people off but I would bet against either Tyrion or Jon becoming one of three heads. Tyrion mostly because he's hated throughout Westeros and I doubt that is ever going to change. He would stick out as a sore thumb as a ruler and I doubt many of the houses would accept taking orders from him. I rather liked the idea of him being a dragon trainer though and taking control of House Lannister, replacing his father as Jaime and Cersei will most likely be dead. Tyrion and Dany could try the brute force option but that rarely works in establishing a secure kingdom. On the matter of security, I think the third rider will be female as they need to produce heirs in Dany's stead. This leaves two options to me, Arya or Asha. Asha would be a better fit as she's older and has more combat experience. However I do think it's going to end up being Arya(mainly due to plot relevance and warg abilities). Arya would also help get the north in line and make them feel they have a say in the new kingdom.

Now in regards to Jon, the main problem being his oath to the wall. I can see this only being resolved in one way, the absolute destruction of the Others and their leader or God. If the Others are completely wiped out then I see no reason for the Night Watch to exist and they could disband. This is possible that this could happen however I doubt this for one reason. The first being that the Others are being built up as the main villains of the entire series and I think the battle with the Others will be dealt with at the very end with all of Westeros standing behind Dany. If Martin however deals with the Others first then Jon is most certainly one of the heads. However Jon being the 998 Commander is somewhat interesting in that it could be foreshadowing that he dies or that the Night Watch never reaches 999 or 1000. While I do believe that the L+R= J theory to be true(even though it might be too obvious for Martin), Jon could easily pull an Aemon and reject the throne. So if I'm right about Jon and Tyrion being out then that doesn't leave much. Bran is needed for Winterfell unless Rickon takes control but I could see Bran as the final rider but then that would probably take Arya out as I can't see those two producing a heir. Actually I don't think we know if Bran can even have heirs period. It's possible Martin might go the Sphinx route with Arya being the third head however we have seen so little of him throughout the series that he doesn't really seem that developed of a character to take such a major role. Gendry doesn't really have the ambition and again isn't that developed of a character for such a role. Jon does want the Lannisters to pay so he does have the motivation as well as obvious leadership skills but his oath is such a glaring problem.

 

[No One]

Hi Jarmel - one of the senior posters will probably be along to roll out the red carpet soon. They're a good bunch

I'm just stating the obvious here with regard to your thoughts on Tyrion, but I do believe (despite some suggestions otherwise) that being one of the three heads means being Targaryan. Whether or not the people of Westeros like Tyrion or could ever accept him as a ruler is irrelevent if he is, in fact, a Targaryan (if that is true, I see Tyrion in Tywin's role, as Hand of the King). As for Arya it has been said, but I don't buy it (warging can't be a factor, otherwise Bran would also be a head, making four heads, because Jon is definately a head. That's a lot o head. Asha? That would be very left field.

Agreed that Jon will not likely break his vow unless it's rendered null and void, as you say, but I don't think the Others or, particularly, their god will be altogether eliminated. More likely the Night's Watch might be completely wiped out and the Wall destroyed (with regard to the Horn of Winter - never bring a loaded gun to the stage unless you mean to use it). No more NW, no more vow, but I'm open to suggestions and have no idea how that will pan out.

P.s: When all is said and done, I think Gendry will sit the iron throne.

 

[Jarmel]

Hi Jarmel - one of the senior posters will probably be along to roll out the red carpet soon. They're a good bunch

I'm just stating the obvious here with regard to your thoughts on Tyrion, but I do believe (despite some suggestions otherwise) that being one of the three heads means being Targaryan. Whether or not the people of Westeros like Tyrion or could ever accept him as a ruler is irrelevent if he is, in fact, a Targaryan (if that is true, I see Tyrion in Tywin's role, as Hand of the King). As for Arya it has been said, but I don't buy it (warging can't be a factor, otherwise Bran would also be a head, making four heads, because Jon is definately a head. That's a lot o head. Asha? That would be very left field.

Agreed that Jon will not likely break his vow unless it's rendered null and void, as you say, but I don't think the Others or, particularly, their god will be altogether eliminated. More likely the Night's Watch might be completely wiped out and the Wall destroyed (with regard to the Horn of Winter - never bring a loaded gun to the stage unless you mean to use it). No more NW, no more vow, but I'm open to suggestions and have no idea how that will pan out.

P.s: When all is said and done, I think Gendry will sit the iron throne.

Thanks for the welcome. I do think Martin's line that the third rider doesn't have to be Targaryen is somewhat interesting and either means Arya or Tyrion(Arya being the much more likely case). If Tyrion was a Targaryen then a lot of his actions would be much more swallowable to the general public but it does somewhat decrease the drama behind Tyrion's actions. Arya being a warg is a bonus not a requirement. She also fits the warrior queen image and if Jon becomes a rider then I can see those two producing a heir as Arya has a bit of a crush on him. Asha would indeed be left field but she also fits the warrior image. Either one would secure a decent portion of the kingdom but it definitely has to be a female unless Martin grants Dany her fertility back. I also agree with the notion that at least one of the riders have to be her husband as the dragons are going to be her symbol of authority or right from God to rule. The dragons have to go to people that help her establish a line.

The thing with the Night Watch being wiped out is that Jon won't stand by and watch that happen. Chances are if the Night Watch is wiped out then he'll be killed too. Jon wiping out the Others would also give him extreme credence throughout the realm but again I see that as the final battle in the series. Jon also has Ghost who would be completely overshadowed by a dragon. However there are multiple ways of serving the Night's Watch so it could be possible that Jon is still Commander and becomes King at the same time. What better way to secure rights and privileges of the Night's Watch then being King of all of Westeros. However again I think this is unlikely and with Jon being such an obvious pick, I think the male rider will fall on someone else. The problem though is hay he's an obvious pick for a reason. Tyrion would never inspire the level of loyalty Jon could nor would he ever be as loved by the public. It's possible some newcomer could come out of left field but I doubt that.

 

[TK-421]

Welcome Jarmel.

Personnaly, I do not necessarily associate "ruling" with being one of the Heads of the Dragon.

 

[The Imp]

What TK said, and welcome

I don't think that the 3 heads will necessarily mean 3 rulers. The only person that I think Dany would share power with were Drogo and someone who might become her husband. Jon very possibly. This becomes infitiely more like if the R + L = J theory is correct. Other likely candidates for "headship" include Bran and Tyrion. I also wonder what GRRM has in store for Rickon. I think one thing is for certain, he's not going to be dragged along for 3 more books as "window dressing".

AGain, welcome, and keep the posts coming

 

[No One]

Only cause I'm confused, but if R+L=J is true, what does that make Jon to Dany, if anything, in terms of blood relation?

Is it half-brother? (not that that matters to Targaryens of course...)

 

[The Imp]

Only cause I'm confused, but if R+L=J is true, what does that make Jon to Dany, if anything, in terms of blood relation?

Is it half-brother? (not that that matters to Targaryens of course...)

Jon would be her nephew, and more importantly, be a Targ.

thank goodness I was able to edit that typo before BoAZ CAUGHT ME :d

 

[No One]

Jon would be her nephew, and moreimportantly, be a Targ.

Ah, thank you.

I like to think Jon is a Stark at heart, though. Then again, if he has Targ blood might we not worry that both he and Dany will go ape-scat on account of the "mad gene"? Never considered that before. Must re-read Jon for subtle signs of madness...