Everyone needs a conspiracy theory....

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Wait a second....I cant let this pass without asking a few questions....

1) Why would Tywin place a spy with Tyrion? His actions have been relatively public....if he going to spy on Tyrion why is he such a poor judge of character not to do the same with Jaime and Cersei? What does he gain from this?

2) So Bronn and Shae? Why not Pod as well? Once you start placing a conspiracy on everyone where does it end? Theres no actual evidence to support this....just conjecture about what may make sense. Just as long as you agree with that we can have a discussion.

3) Bronns actions are completely in tune with a sellsword with a soft streak. He agrees to fight in the Aerie because the champion is inept and there is a life changing prize at stake....he doesnt fight at Tyrions trial because neither of those are true. In fact why would he hitch his wagon to Lollys (sp?) with Tywin his employer. Certainly the gain from marrying that lackwit only marginally outweighed the potential winfall his actions for Tywin would net. If he is really as super-hyper-unimaginably successful as you claim then he could expect a baronet from the Hand of the King at least.

4) Shae was absolutely as opportunistic as she is shown to be. Do we forget how Tyrion gained her as an "employee"? She didnt even blink as she jumped ship. There is absolutely no reason to believe she wouldnt jump ship again to Tywins bed. In fact that "Giant of Lannister" dig was probably just her way of getting into Tywin's good side.

5) Bronn naming his child Tyrion....after a supposed Kingslayer...isnt the actions of a man who is a spy. I dont see super duper spy Bronn being that soft. But super duper sellsword Bronn could be....

I didnt even bring up Shaes insolence to Sansa.....

 

[Boaz]

Wait a second....I cant let this pass without asking a few questions....

You took the words out of my mouth...

Egg, how do you know he's not spying on Jaime and Cersei? He's owned Pycelle since Robert's Rebellion at least. Varys told Eddard that Boros and Meryn belonged to Cersei, but are they not properly placed to spy on Jaime? Cersei and Jaime could easily think they control Pycelle, Boros, and Meryn while Tywin is paying them to spy on his children.

But what spy is going to tell Tywin that his twins have an incestuous relationship? I think that's a no-win situation for the spy... just keep your mouth closed.

Tyrion's handling of negotiating alliances to the Martells, Tyrells, and Arryns were conducted in secrecy. He kidnapped Tommen and hid him from Stannis, Renly, and Robb. He sent Myrcella in secrecy to Dorne. He kept the chain a secret from Stannis.

Once you start placing a conspiracy on everyone where does it end? Theres no actual evidence to support this....just conjecture about what may make sense. Just as long as you agree with that we can have a discussion.

I've never disagreed with this... this is the beauty of the conspiracy theory! It never ends!

Oops! Gotta run. Will post later.

 

[Boaz]

Sorry, I had to leave in the middle of my last post. But here's the finish...

Bronn naming his child Tyrion....after a supposed Kingslayer...

Kinslayer... no G. Tyrion is the Kinslayer, Jaime's the Kingslayer.

I agree that Bronn's and Shae's actions are on par with who they are... but don't you want to find something deeper here?

Two actions of Bronn's surprise me. First, he suggest regicide to Tyrion in front of Varys. He said the unthinkable to the Hand (the King's uncle) and the Master of Whisperers... the two people who could crush him like a worm... yet he got off scot free. (Is that term un-PC nowadays? If so then pronounce worm like Brendan Gleason's character in Braveheart... "loik uh wuhrrehm.") How did these two let him get away with this?

Second, he flouts Cersei's wishes openly in AFFC. With the power of Casterly Rock, Highgarden, the Twins, and supposedly Dorne behind her and with the Vale and the Iron Islands sitting this one out how does Bronn have the gall to forcibly resist Cersei's men? Who is backing him?

In some other thread I suggested that Varys has been Bronn's boss all along. Of course this is at odds with my own theory that Tywin held his purse strings, but it might explain Bronn's above actions.

As for Shae, why was she in Tywin's bed? I find it hard to believe that Tywin wanted Tyrion's leftovers. If Shae was Tywin's in the first place, it better explains his readily taking her to bed.

While I'm speaking of Tywin and Shae... Isn't Tywin supposedly the one who caught his father's mistress wearing his mother's jewelry? Curious how Shae was wearing Tywin's Hand necklace, one of the most famous pieces of jewelry in the land, when Tyrion found her? The more I think about Tywin and all the Lannisters, the more I think they all need some therapy.

Now back to what I was really talking about... how did Varys find Shae so fast when she arrived in KL? What if Shae already worked for Varys? Perhaps she sent word that she was back in town.

Yes, I know that I'm proposing the Shae and Bronn either worked for Varys or Tywin or both. I don't know the answers.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Actually Kingslayer is correct there Boazie....Tyrion was convicted for killing a king after all.

I think Bronns actions you mentioned (saying regicide in front of Varys and standing in open contempt of Cersei) can best be attributed to his arrogance. He was arrogant you know. His actions at Castle Stokeworth are easily explained as being his only possible course. Cersei sent someone to kill him, that person failed, he chooses not to run immediately because that option is open to him anytime. So he mocks Cersei with his castle full of loyal retainers. He can run whenever opposition is arrayed against him, until then live a little. Hadnt Tywin taken a crossbow bolt to his "Little Lion" at that point anyhow?

Shae with the necklace is curious. But the fact that Tywin took her to bed anyhow shows that public and private Tywin were two different people. In fact I would go so far as to say that Tywin is exactly like everyone who ever publicly abhorred the way his parents raised him and then found himself being the exact same way as they got older.

Now that Ive addressed the majority of your points (Ill leave out the "Spy wouldnt rat out incestous twins" line because I think thats ridiculous). Tywin didnt spy on Tyrion because he didnt have much respect for him. Oh sure he felt Tyrion had a little low cunning but at the end of the day he felt Tyrion was inconsequential. Tyrions entire goal was to prove that wrong.

 

[Boaz]

Convicted,yes. Actually guilty, no. Jaime, Tyrion, Lancel, Olenna, Drogo, Mirri Maz Duur, Roose, Euron, Sansa, Brienne, Melisandre, Walder Frey... have I missed any actual kingslayers or those convicted by public opinion? Next in line to die are Mance, Euron, Tommen, Stannis, and Dany. The most likely kingslayers (or queenslayers) in my opinion are Mormont, Selmy, Jaime, Davos, and Asha. The next possible characters to commit regicide are Jaqen, Arya, Loras, Darkstar, Lancel, and the Blackfish. But this is all off topic anyway.

Egg, the topic is... Why do you always have to be right? You're annoying habit of making sense is starting to bother me. The English word conspiracy comes to us from Latin via French. Con means with.... spiracy comes from Latin meaning to breathe, i.e. Spirit was the unseen breath of God and Inspiration was the in breathing of God into the writers of the Bible. So we need to breathe together, if we are not breathing together, then we don't have a conspiracy.

Breathe in.

You think Tywin respected Cersei and Jaime? He had to know Cersei was a conniving, manipulative, ambitious uh, err, woman. Jaime was rash beyond rash and was particularly easy to manipulate... except for Tywin. Either Tywin had a huge blind spot for the twins or I think he kept tabs on them. I personally think he kept tabs on Cersei.

Breath out.

I think the spy who ratted out Jaime and Cersei would have feared for his life. Lord Tywin might have killed him for just brining the news and most certainly would have killed the spy just to cover it up... If this news had come out while Robert was living, then Tywin would have had to have killed Cersei, Jaime, Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella with his own hands if he had any hope of not joining the Reynes and Tarbecks.

Breathe in.

If Tywin failed to kill the spy, then both Cersei and Jaime would have sought out the informer on their own for pure vengeance.

Breathe out.

It seems to me that Pycelle (bought and owned by the Lannisters) knew about Cersei and Jaime. Yet he never said a word. I think he knew he'd never get rewarded for that information.

Breathe in.

I also think Varys and Littlefinger knew, but they kept that information to themselves for their own ends. Perhaps one or both still has concrete evidence of some sort that could topple Tommen from the throne... that is if Cersei does not accomplish this herself.

Breathe out.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Convicted,yes. Actually guilty, no.

Now go back and reread the original use of the word Kingslayer and the word supposed in front of it....

Egg, the topic is... Why do you always have to be right? You're annoying habit of making sense is starting to bother me. The English word conspiracy comes to us from Latin via French. Con means with.... spiracy comes from Latin meaning to breathe, i.e. Spirit was the unseen breath of God and Inspiration was the in breathing of God into the writers of the Bible. So we need to breathe together, if we are not breathing together, then we don't have a conspiracy.

Theres comedy, theres true comedy, and then theres transcendant comedy.....that paragraph was transcendant comedy. The only way it could be lessened is if it were true....I pray you lied to me.

Oh and for the record I dont have to be right...I just always happen to be....

You think Tywin respected Cersei and Jaime? He had to know Cersei was a conniving, manipulative, ambitious uh, err, woman. Jaime was rash beyond rash and was particularly easy to manipulate... except for Tywin. Either Tywin had a huge blind spot for the twins or I think he kept tabs on them. I personally think he kept tabs on Cersei.

I dont think he actually put any credence to Cersei being the conniving bizzle we know and love. Witness the way he dismissed her out of hand upon arriving in Kings Landing and the way he dismissed her in the small council. No I doubt he thought she was capable of anything. In fact Ill go so far as to say I think he only respected Jaime and was incapable of thinking Jaimes could betray him.

I think the spy who ratted out Jaime and Cersei would have feared for his life. Lord Tywin might have killed him for just brining the news and most certainly would have killed the spy just to cover it up... If this news had come out while Robert was living, then Tywin would have had to have killed Cersei, Jaime, Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella with his own hands if he had any hope of not joining the Reynes and Tarbecks.

No no no...as a spy you have to worry about him finding this bit of news out without you telling him. Theres no way you live then. No I think a spy would have to tell Tywin the truth to keep living. You know Tywin never struck me as particularly heavy handed with servants. He's not soft with them but I think theres a world of difference between Ned Stark and Gregor Clagane.....Tywin was somewhere in the middle.

It seems to me that Pycelle (bought and owned by the Lannisters) knew about Cersei and Jaime. Yet he never said a word. I think he knew he'd never get rewarded for that information.

Why would you think that? Did I miss something. By definition Pycelle was bought and sold by everyone but why would he know about twincest neccessarily?

 

[Boaz]

Incapable of thinking Jaimes could betray him... Hmmm, you're probably right.

Saying Tywin is in between Ned (merciful) and Gregor (psychotic) is like saying Jessica Simpson is between Kate Moss and Rosie O'Donnell. I'm gonna need more of a commitment from you on this one.

How could Pycelle have missed the twincest? He was there the whole time. He served since friggin' Jahaerys, iirc. He was personal physician to Robert, Cersei, Jaime, and the kids.

I think I remember Cersei saying that she found a woman to help her undo her pregnancy with Robert... so it appears she did not always go to Pycelle as Margaery did. But I guess I kind of think that Jaime and Cersei were fools to think that nobody knew. Tyrion knew. Varys and Littlefinger knew.

Loras and Renly was the worst kept secret in KL. I think GRRM spilled that for flavor but kept Jaime and Cersei a secret for the readers' sake.

Pycelle is the most well placed and most public face of the Citadel. Some have speculated that the Maesters are equal to the Illuminati, i.e. they desire a new world order without magic, without kings, a world that they control by a secret council. How far down the rabbit hole do you want me to go?

I believe that Pycelle had one of the larger (not in any way comparable to Varys') spy networks in KL. He slept with serving wenches and maids. I bet he got lots of information through other people's servants.

On this subject, like many before... You'll be logical, I'll be irrational. You'll look for light and I'll look for darkness. And neither of us will change... well, I might if something strikes me as particularly important... or until I find another subject to rant about.

Bottom line: Pycelle knew. Magaery is a Faceless Man. Tyrek is in Pentos. Sandor will kill Nymeria. Tyrion (Tyraen), Varys (Visaerys), and Littlefinger (Paetyr Baelish, Baelish means descendent of Baelor in Old Valyrian) are all Targaryens and all want the throne... these will be the three heads of the Dragon.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Wow you think Pycelle is some sort of mastermind? Hee, Im telling you he's a conniving weasel with a penchant for tossing the female help but he lacks the direction and clarity of purpose be any more than that. I really doubt he knew about Jaime and Cersei....but my version of Pycelle is a worm that would be afraid to run to Tywin.

Cmon he was cowed and outwitted by Tyrion. He cant be all that...

Dont give up Boaz, I can be persuaded to think some crazy things...I still say Tywin had a hand in Joffreys death for example.

Is Margie a faceless man or woman? Cause that would explain why Loras never leaves her side if she has an adams apple...and why Renly consented to marriage to shim...

 

[Tysha]

LOL nice conversation!
I have a question - why would Margaery trust Pycelle with her secret about a moon tea? She knows he is Cersei's cat's-paw.. (oh please don't tell me about the corpse {the horse's}...)

 

[Boaz]

Shim! LOL!

Horse? Yikes.

Pycelle a mastermind? Not likely. Having his hand in a many jars as he can because he's greedy? Yes.

Margaery knew that Olenna was going to poison Joffrey at the wedding. She had to be in on it. Would Olenna have poisoned Joffrey's cup without telling Margaery? Actually it was the royal Bridal Cup and Margaery was sipping from it along with Joffrey. In my opinion, Margaery drank from the cup up to a point and then stopped so that she would not die. After the Tyrell coup d'etat, Margaery was feeling very confident. She or Olenna "bought" Pycelle or Margaery being so young thought Pycelle was trying to join the winning side. All I can say is that getting moontea from Pycelle was a mistake.

Margaery, Loras, and Garlan all have the brown Tyrell locks. Mace is already grey and balding. But Mace's wife, Lady Alerie is described has having silver hair... is she a Targ. Why did the Tyrells side with Aerys over Robert?

Dont give up Boaz, I can be persuaded to think some crazy things...I still say Tywin had a hand in Joffreys death for example.

But what about Tyraen Targaryen? Visaerys "Varys" Targaryen? I remember posting something on this a loooong time ago. What about the name Baelish meaning descendent of Baelor? This might explain the rise of House Baelish and their ability to foster their son to Riverrun.

So you do buy the idea that Pycelle would have been too afraid to tell Tywin... good. It's too bad that I contradicted myself later, but do you really think that I believe every thing I post? It's basically just off the top of my head. If I was posting ten minutes from now I'd come up different ideas. The trick is to post with confidence. Sometimes I am vague and uncertain, but I'm confident about my lack of knowledge and intellectual ambiguity.

Who is Marwyn? A maester of Oldtown... not yet an Archmaester. He told Sam that Aemon was sent to the Wall and his talents were wasted. He said Aemon should have been an Archmaester, but that Aemon could never be trusted because of his Targaryen blood. Then Marwyn says that the Archmaester will never trust him either... he leaves the because of blood part unspoken. Is Marwyn really Maerwyn Targaryen or a Targ *******?

When we first meet Pate and Alleras, the subject of Marwyn comes up. Lazy Leo admires Marwyn while Armen and Roone say he is unsound. Alleras who'd been vocal on every other topic was strangely silent on this one. Later it is Alleras who brings Sam to Marwyn. Alleras is either Aegon (thanks Tysha) or Sarella (baby Aegon's first cousin)... either a Targ or a Targ supporter... conspiring (breathing together) with Maerwyn Targaryen. Maerwyn is part of the secret Targaryen supporters who will bring down the Citadel and ensure the survival their dragons this time around.

I still say Tywin had a hand in Joffreys death for example.

What was it that Littlefinger said when Robert wanted Dany and her pregnancy terminated? Something like, "If you find yourself in bed with an ugly woman, it's best to just close your eyes and kiss her." Tywin had been down that road before with Aerys, so you're saying he knew he'd have to deal with Joffrey sooner or later... might as well be sooner. I cannot deny that Tywin might have had a hand in Joffrey's death... and the main reason is the source of our information, namely Littlefinger.

Catelyn was duped by Baelish into thinking Tyrion tried to murder Bran. Sansa already distrusted the Lannsisters completely, so if Baelish told her it was Tywin he would not really gain anything. But if he convinced Sansa that the Tyrells killed Joffrey, then he gets Sansa to distrust the Tyrells also... leading to Sansa's dependence upon him. I like this line of thought very much... except for the fact that Dontos talked to Sansa about death in her hairnet also.

I guess that's about it for breathing together this morning.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

LOL nice conversation!
I have a question - why would Margaery trust Pycelle with her secret about a moon tea? She knows he is Cersei's cat's-paw.. (oh please don't tell me about the corpse {the horse's}...)

Absolutely... I couldnt agree more. Ive thought about this more than once (i.e twice) and I havent come up with a suitable answer. The only thing I came up with was that Margie wasnt the one taking the moon tea....just doing a favor for one of her maids...but that seems out of character. Yer telling me Pycelle is the only source of moon tea in the entire city? Yer telling me Margie couldnt ask one of her maids to go? Or did Pycelle lie through his teeth. It wouldnt be out of character for him to be bought off or even be doing his own thing as Boaz would suggest. I dont know but that one has bugged me for a bit....

Oh and dont think we've discussed that at length before.....so the horse is at least microwavable at this point....

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Gah Boaz...no more with the Dwarf-Targ okay...no more. I cant take it anymore.

There is absolutely no way Olenna or Petyr went to Pycelle for the Tears of Lys (thats the poison right?). Just no way it happened. They are not that dumb. Of course wasnt one of the testimonies against Tyrion that he did swipe the poison from Pycelle and in his testimony it would seem to me that was his only jar of it. I know I know...wheels within wheels....

Personally I think Margy did the poisoning but I have absolutely no way of proving that.

Oh and thinking back to the night of the poisoning, notice the only one who speaks out against Joffreys bratty behavior is Garlan Tyrell....I find that interesting because it speaks of a certain nobility of character that wouldnt likely go along with a poisoning. Just an observation.

Oh and the Maesternati theory is just a hair shy of Margy the Faceless WoMan.....

 

[Boaz]

Tears of Lys killed Jon Arryn.

The Strangler killed Joffrey and probably Maester Cressen as well.

On the Maeternati, please re-read Sam's encouter with Marwyn in the last chapter of AFFC.

Garlan may not be the leader of the Tyrells, but he seems astute and good. Uh oh, that's his death knell.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Tears of Lys killed Jon Arryn.

The Strangler killed Joffrey and probably Maester Cressen as well.

On the Maeternati, please re-read Sam's encouter with Marwyn in the last chapter of AFFC.

Garlan may not be the leader of the Tyrells, but he seems astute and good. Uh oh, that's his death knell.

Its Maesternati dammit.....Maeternati sounds like a conspiracy of restaurant hosts to rule the free world.....

I would love to reread that chapter Boaz....really I would.....that pesky warzone problem, I stopped carrying these books around for that darn professional equipment I need. Damn my employers....

So you win this time.....

 

[Tysha]

lol again.
Well, about Margaery-Pycelle-moon tea, there are several options:
1. It's all as it seems - Margaery(or one of her friends) gets pregnant, and there is no other moon tea distributor. Not likely.
2. Margaery (Tyrells/Lady Ollena) knows that Pycelle is Cersei's creature and everything she will tell him will be known to Cersei. So it have to be some kinda plot - to create a scandal with Cersei as a scandal maker-false accusation and etc..
3. The same idea of "2" but with Pycelle IN. Pycelle is no more a Cersei creature - he oppose her,afraid of her and works for Tyrells now...
“N-not unwell, Your Grace, not as such. My oaths forbid me to divulge . . .”
“Your oaths will be of small comfort in the black cells,” she warned him. “I’ll hear the truth, or you’ll wear chains.” - here we can see an interesting thing. If someone wanted to keep a secret from someone (especially like Cersei) would he say "My oaths forbid me to divulge.."? Nooo, he would say a nice believable lie, BUT as it happened with Robert (Cersei FORBAD him to melee a the tourney...), here Pycelle is provoking Cersei with his "My oaths forbid me to divulge" and it works... I choose this option, it's logical and has a conspiracy in it

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Dont forget it could be a complete fabrication on Pycelles part which is what I initially thought. Anyone can manipulate him, hes that spineless.....

 

[Boaz]

Yeah, the Jellyfish.

He goes well on the Small Council with the Spider, the Fruit, and the Rat. The Wolf and the Lion are about the only two non-vermin around.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Except the Lion, as we've learned stinks and sleeps with his siblings....dirty Lion.

Tysha-Do you give Pycelle enough credit to be able to prevaricate like that? We gave Cersei credit for being intelligent using that gambit before she went insane....and got fat (words can not describe my mirth at that....) but Pycelle is not as sharp. Im sure he's intelligent, but he seems consumed by his own avarice, greed and ineptitude. I could be wrong.....as Ive said, its happened before.

 

[MOUNTAIN THAT READS]

I could be wrong.....as Ive said, its happened before.

WHAT!!!!!! My entire world has just been thrown into chaos!!!!!!! What's next???

Boaz isn't serious about all those theories that I have taken for GRRM law.

Tysha is actually stationary for more than a couple of days, not traveling the world.

I am so confused,

<rocks in the corner while sucking thumb>

 

[Tysha]

Except the Lion, as we've learned stinks and sleeps with his siblings....dirty Lion.

Tysha-Do you give Pycelle enough credit to be able to prevaricate like that? We gave Cersei credit for being intelligent using that gambit before she went insane....and got fat (words can not describe my mirth at that....) but Pycelle is not as sharp. Im sure he's intelligent, but he seems consumed by his own avarice, greed and ineptitude. I could be wrong.....as Ive said, its happened before.

Well, Pycelle is weak and spineless BUT not stupid. He is quite ambitious (for an old fart) and he "dislikes" Cersei lately, and I think would gladly get rid of her. Everyone can see that Cersei is going down and Pycelle joins the winning side (Tyrells)... That fits to his avarice and greed

MOUNTAIN THAT READS - LOL