Pure Speculation RE; A Song of Ice and Fire.

Hi everyone – I’m new to this forum, but I’ve spent hours reading these threads since finishing the books a few months back (can’t wait for ADWD – how the hell have some of you managed waiting so long?!). Anyway, I just have to get a few things off my chest so forgive the scattershot approach.

1) First off, I’m becoming increasingly convinced of the 'Tyrion Targaryen' angle (would’ve never figured the R+L=J equasion, but it’s far too plausible to not be true). As for Tyrion there’s a ton of possible clues. The strongest evidence could be in Jaime's vision of his mother as a silent sister and all that that might mean. What really caught my attention was Tyrion’s new chapter, where he remembers Tywin's last words as "wherever whores go". Not true. "You are no son of mine" were in fact Tywin's last words and after being shot it seems unlikely that he was trying to hurt Tyrion's feelings by disowning him. More likely it was a statement of truth. Maybe.

2) As for Brienne, how about this. “Sword” is the word. She gets to live because she swears an oath to kill Jaime. She breaks that oath, therefore committing the same terrible crime that she accuses the Kingslayer of. Too obvious? Or the kind of poetic justice that has started emerging in the wake of Lannister victory?

3) Then there’s the prophecies and the dreams – and as unbelievable as it seems something may have been missed on these threads (how’s that for setting myself up?). I’ve seen mention of “Sansa slaying a giant in a castle made of snow” but no replies saying, “It’s already happened!”. Sansa built a snow castle at the Eyrie (a great little scene) and little Robert came along with his doll, saying it’s a giant as it kicked in the walls. Sansa ripped it’s head off, hence the giant-slaying. I think it was really meant to signify the future importance of what's going on with Sansa and Littlefinger.

4) Also haven’t seen mention of the fact that Crow’s Eye hired a Faceless Man (the weird and wonderful Jaqen H’ghar?) to kill Balon Greyjoy. In the dwarf-woman’s dreams she describes "a man without a face" waiting on a swaying bridge. There's the additional information of a crow on the man's shoulder, implying he was hired by Crow's Eye. The tricky part is where the crow is described as drowned and covered in seaweed – an obvious reference to Aeron and his god.

5) Let’s see…Jaime is the valonqar (spelling?). He has to be. Could just be wishful thinking and I can’t recall the details just now, but the valonqar prophecy has something to do with Cersei being strangled by a younger brother, presumed to be Tyrion? A friend seemed to recall (I hope accurately) that Jaime was born second of the twins and is technically the younger brother. How about he throttles Cersei with the aid of his golden hand? That’s all assuming Arya doesn’t get there first (she wouldn’t even need to be hired. She’d do it for free.)

Speaking of people Arya must kill – Roose ####ing Bolton! I found a theories page over the net that answered one of my longstanding questions and I haven’t seen mention of it so far here. The question: who killed Robb Stark? I didn’t even think that, as usual, the answer was hidden in plain sight. Roose ####ing Bolton! Okay, maybe you all know that, but I’m seriously miffed. On the off chance that this is news, the man who did the deed was wearing a pink cape (Bolton’s colour) and in a previous scene in ASOS, when Jaime is leaving Harrenhal, he asks Bolton to give Robb Stark his regards. And so, “Jaime Lannister sends his regards”. Die, Bolton, die. And the Freys. Obviously.

One final thing. There is no way in hell Meryn Trant could've taken Syrio Forel, sword and armour and all things considered. Yes, the last thing Arya sees is Forel's training sword being cut in two, but, particularly in AFFC, no one has a single good thing to say about Trant's abilities as a warrior, and we're supposed to believe he killed a man who dropped five men in ten seconds? With a stick? I just don't buy it. It's more likely that in another ten seconds Forel had Trant's sword in his own hand and forced him to yield. I’m not saying that Forel is Jaqen H’ghar (although I like the idea that being conscripted by Yoren was his way out of King’s Landing) but I also don’t believe that Jaqen was hired to kill Ned on route to the Wall (unnecessarily elaborate and expensive). Of course, why would Jaqen be teaching a little girl to fight after assuming the identity of Forel? There are just too many questions about Jaqen that need answering. Irrespective of who’s who and what happened next the fact remains – there is no way that Trant took Forel down. There’s as much chance of Sandor being dead. And he clearly ain’t (would love to see the ‘Holy’ Sandor vs ‘Golem’ Gregor scenario).
Plus, there must be more to Arya’s moment after killing the stableboy. She hears a voice in her ear – ostensibly Syrio - but then doubts that she heard it (I may be reading too much into that part).

[FONT=&quot]Okay, at risk of having the longest single post. Must stop. Thanks for letting me vent. [/FONT]
 
Welcome to No One.

I only have a minute, but let me comment on Sansa's slaying a giant. Gregor Clegane is one possibility, but it seems he's dead... or at least undead. Maybe the giants will come south of the Wall.

But maybe this is foreshadowing Tyrion's death. Tyrion's shadow seems as tall as a king when he first meets Jon. Maester Aemon calls Tyrion a giant compared to the meager and lonely men of the Night's Watch. Tyrion ruled the realm for a while. And Shae called Tyrion "my Giant of Lannister".

And technically speaking, Tyrion and Sansa are still married... i.e. Tyrion still has a claim (if he's ever pardoned or proven innocent of regicide) to Winterfell.
 
Welcome No One. Great first post. I'll have more to say when I have a little time :)
 
Thanks Boaz & Imp.

Just a few quick thoughts then: I've seen mention of something about a 'stone giant' as one of the portents and that Gregor seems to be the reference. For what reason, I can't remember just now. Anyway, I do remember Gregor being described as looking like a stone giant/statue as he was waiting for Oberyn to take the field. I thought that could mean something to somebody else.

And Boaz, it's funny you mentioned the "Tyrion stood tall as a king" point, 'cause that was a point I ended up leaving out of my post. I thought it was strange that Martin chose the word "king" instead of the more obvious choice of "giant" (as possible evidence to the Targaryen angle), but then I thought back on how Jon had measured up Robert and Jaime as candidates for the crown. The subject of kings was definately on Jon's mind - and it is a Jon POV - so now I'm not so sure...good point on Tyrion though and maybe the scene at the Eyrie is itself a portent (within a portent). However, I don't see Sansa and Tyrion's paths crossing anytime soon or Sansa putting out a hit on the one Lannister who didn't mistreat her. Plus there's the castle of snow, which seals it for me, but I'm not going to pretend that I've successfully predicted anything significant in these books.

Oh yeah, and the marriage. Didn't Tywin tell Tyrion that if the marriage wasn't consumated it was as good as void? Given all that's happened since, I'd say their happy union is effectively over.
 
The Faceless Men are, IMO one of the most fascinating sets of characters in ASOIAF
How did a Faceless Man get captured and end up in a King's Landing jail cell? Was this part of a greater plan to "recruit" Arya?
Was Syrio A FM?
Could Syrio possibly have been killed by Trant? Could Bruce Lee have been beaten by Hulk Hogan? (as an analogy)
If SYrio didn't die, did he replace Trant, or did he excape and take over the identity of a common criminal (The "real" Jaqan)
Did Ned Stark knowingly hire a FM to protect his daughter(s) or was he manipulated by them?
DId a Fm in fact assinate Greyjoy?
Are there Faceless Women?
Who "controls" the FM? Are they strictly for hire or do they have a political agenda?
What is their agenda at The Citidal? Was the agent at The Citadel SYrio?

I'm really rooting for GRRM to give us ADWD as a Christmas present
 
Imp – all good questions. And a perfect analogy. Whatcha gonna do when Meryn-mania runs wild on you?
In Bruce Lee’s case, kick his head off is what.

I’m reasonably sure on Greyjoy’s assassination and the kindly old man in AFFC says there have been few women who have served the temple. What exactly Jaqen was doing in King’s Landing is an incredibly annoying brainteaser as, of course, is Syrio.

Speaking of AFFC, did anyone else notice when Arya asks the kindly man if he’s heard the name Jaqen H’ghar, he simply says “I do not know this name”. Then, either due to a slight continuity error or Arya simply forgetting his previous response, she later asks, “Is Jaqen H’ghar a priest too? Do you know if Jaqen will be coming back to Braavos?”
'“Who?” he said, all innocence.' That's the line.

After she persists he says, “I know no one by this name.” But if Jaqen is a trained Faceless Man, then he is no one (meaning he has no core identity). And apparently the kindly man knows no one by that name. Which would mean he does know Jaqen. Wouldn’t it? In any case, the term “all innocence” seems to be a blatant cry that he knows exactly who Jaqen is and is just toying with Arya. Need answers.

Do you mean this christmas? That seems highly doubtful (I’ve heard April next year or autumn, but only Martin can decide that. What I’m hoping is that by the time he’s finished ADWD he’ll have a chunk of the next book already partially done, so maybe that won’t take so long).
 
Do you mean this christmas? That seems highly doubtful (I’ve heard April next year or autumn, but only Martin can decide that. What I’m hoping is that by the time he’s finished ADWD he’ll have a chunk of the next book already partially done, so maybe that won’t take so long).
Pretty silly eh? Going by the most recent GRRM "update that I remember, he had 1k manuscript pages in to the publisher, and was stuck in the Danny POV. My fantasy is that he's finished that off and is ready to tidy up the rest of what he has.

As I write this I realize how delusional I actually am, but one can always hope :) In the meantime, I'm immersed in the LOTR. Again. AT least that one is done.
 
Dear No One (or Nevyn as you would be called in another series of books I'ev read):

Well, what a breath of fresh air in this place. Thanks for the scattershot. I appreciate it and have some thoughts to contribute:

1) While your theory about Euron hiring a Faceless Man to kill Balon is sound, I find it highly unlikely that this was our friend Jaqen. First, there are more than just Jaqen in the order or cult of whatever the Faceless Men really are. Second, how could he really be in two places at once? We have accepted the fact that Pate, who is killed in Oldtown in AFFC is replaced by Jaqen. So, how could he have gone to and from Oldtown and the Iron Islands in so little timeframe? Unless I am completely off on my sequence of events, I see this as impossible. The other possibility to explain this is that Syrio could be your other Faceless Man and a completely seperate person from Jaqen.

2) I like your thoughts on Sansa and this is one character that I think many people have underestimated and GRRM has written her in such a way that we will all be very surprised when we learn of her true fate and potential. I also like the link with Tyrion that good ol' Boaz made. I could be convinced that this was in the realm of a possible outcome. Sansa killing Tyrion. I think the scene with the snow castle is a red herring.

3) Yes, Roose did kill Robb. That I knew.

4) As for Syrio not be killed by Meryn, it would be very interesting if Arya came across her old waterdancing master during her mini-vacation in Braavos.

I too keep checking GRRM's Blog for a special Christmas message that ADWD is done. A boy can dream that Santa truly exists!
 
Imp - I'm thinking about going back to Howard's Conan stories. Only read half of them so far and they're good fun. Sandor vs Conan anyone? :). I recently started Abercrombie's The Sword Itself, but I wasn't taken in. Just as some elements started to grow on me I quit reading. Maybe I'll go back to that some time...

And cheers TK - what is Nevyn from?

Agreed that it needn't be Jaqen who killed Balon, but I'm not sure the idea can be thrown out. I'n really not sure on the sort of time-scale AFFC covers, but with Jaqen being in Oldtown (another great spot by someone on these threads), surely the iron islands are a relatively short boat-trip away with plenty of time to get back. I could be entirely wrong of course, but given the supposedly absurd expense of hiring a Faceless Man there can't be more than a few running around Westeros at any one time. Unless they're not all just hired killers and also serve as manipulative spies.

And I too keep checking Martin's blog, but mainly to make sure he's still alive.
 
And cheers TK - what is Nevyn from?

He's a main character in the Deverry series by Katherine Kerr. His name literally means "nobody". The books in that series are:
Daggerspell
Darkspell
The Bristling Wood
The Dragon Revenant
A Time of Exile
A Time of Omens
Days of Blood and Fire
Days of Air and Darkness
The Red Wyvern
The Black Raven
The Fire Dragon
The Gold Falcon
The Spirit Stone
The Shadow Isle
The Silver Mage (last book in the whole series just released in November, have yet to read it myself)

I'm not convinced going from the Iron Islands to Oldtown is such a short boat trip but Sam made it from the Wall to Oldtown by boat during the timeframe covered by AFFC so, you may be right.
 
Daggerspell
Darkspell
The Bristling Wood
The Dragon Revenant
A Time of Exile
A Time of Omens
Days of Blood and Fire
Days of Air and Darkness
The Red Wyvern
The Black Raven
The Fire Dragon
The Gold Falcon
The Spirit Stone
The Shadow Isle
The Silver Mage (last book in the whole series just released in November, have yet to read it myself)

Yikes. That's a lot o' books. I take it they're good, seeing as you've read all but the last?

Good point on Sam. Forgot about him. So the question is whether or not "Pate" was present at the citadel the whole time.
 
RE: Sansa and the savage giant made of snow...

He saw his father pleading with the king, his face etched with grief. He saw Sansa crying herself to sleep at night, and he saw Arya watching in silence and holding her secrets hard in her heart. There were shadows all around them. One shadow was as dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood.

This is one of the first visions Bran has, and I've always wondered about. The shadows of the Kingslayer and the Hound are obvious, and the giant in armor made of stone sounds like Gregor to me, and specifically the Qyborg version of him. The thing is, Gregor hasn't really had any meaningful effect on Sansa's life yet... I think their paths will cross and she'll have her chance to slay a savage giant.
 
Imp-

I don't think Eddard could have hired a faceless man to protect his daughter wittingly or un. The Faceless Men seem pretty committed to their 'all men must die' credo. They see themselves as performing a sort of religious work, I don't think they play body guard. Ever.
 
Imp-

I don't think Eddard could have hired a faceless man to protect his daughter wittingly or un. The Faceless Men seem pretty committed to their 'all men must die' credo. They see themselves as performing a sort of religious work, I don't think they play body guard. Ever.
In thinking about it I agree that he wouldn't/couldn't have knowingly hired a FM, BUT, I don't think it's unreasonabnle to think that they could have manipulated things to be able to get someone inside the Red keep. Of course, this presupposes that Syrio was a FM.
 
Illifer - hi there.

So that's where it came from. Now I remember. It's an interesting vision - Sansa crying herself to sleep at night and Arya watching silently and secretly (because of something Arya has done to Sansa or someone she cared about? Or is it just hinting at things that have already happened?)

No doubt it's referring to Sandor, Jaime, and Gregor, but I just don't see how it connects back to Sansa (as it's not a giant made of snow but a giant in a castle made of snow). I stand by my original assumption, and I'd say that the "darkness and thick black blood" part are definately hinting at what becomes of Gregor post-Oberyn. I mis-quoted earlier about him being described as a stone statue or giant, but Tyrion thinks that Gregor "looks as though he's been chiselled out of stone". I don't know if that equates with certainty to "in armour made of stone", but it seems plausible.

One thing I feel pretty sure about is that Sansa will not actually be slaying any giants (or Gregor) anytime soon.
 
One thing I feel pretty sure about is that Sansa will not actually be slaying any giants (or Gregor) anytime soon.

Of course, I felt pretty sure that Robb wouldn't get stabbed in the back under the most heinous of circumstances and have Grey Wind's head attached to his freaking body!

Sorry. Bad flashback.
 
One of the things I'm most looking forward to is the epic final confrontation between the Holy Hound and Un-Gregor. If the Hound isn't the one finishing off Gregor then I'll be bitterly disappointed, especially if a teenage girl gets the honor instead. Please look elsewhere for Sansa's giant ;).
 
But it wouldn't be all that surprising if the holy hound takes down the Qyborg defending a certain teen age girl.

or so it seems to me.
 
But it wouldn't be all that surprising if the holy hound takes down the Qyborg defending a certain teen age girl.

or so it seems to me.

Hey, I'm cool with that. It just better be the Holy Hound doing the re-killing...not the reformed spoiled princess.
 
One of the things I'm most looking forward to is the epic final confrontation between the Holy Hound and Un-Gregor. If the Hound isn't the one finishing off Gregor then I'll be bitterly disappointed, especially if a teenage girl gets the honor instead. Please look elsewhere for Sansa's giant ;).

Seeing as Martin has apparently been influenced by medieval history and legend I'm of the opinion that he's fused Gregor with his own take on the Jewish Golem legend of the 16th century (in which a Rabbi creates a Golem from inannimate materials to protect the Jews of Prague from anti-semetic prosecution from the Holy Roman Emperor).

German director Paul Wegener made a famous version of the Golem in 1915, where the Golem is eventually deactivated by a child. Not sure if that complies with the original story, but it does make me wonder...

In any case, while I was reading Cersei's chapters in AFFC, I was expecting Gregor to be unleashed to go rampaging through King's Landing in order to rescue Cersei from the Sept. I'm still expecting that to happen. Should be great.
 

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