Pure Speculation RE; A Song of Ice and Fire.

[Boaz]

tsw, that's funny.

Anyway, from some lively discussion about Dany's homecoming on the Freys - Mercy or Vengeace? thread, I had this thought. What if Dany does not go to Westeros and does not stay in Slaver's Bay... what if she re-founds Valyria?

Valyria is subject to the Doom. The Doom is frequently guessed to be a high degree of volcanic activity in former Valyria. The old Valyrians kept the volcanoes and seismic activity in check through magic. But the Faceless Men assassinated the Valyrian magicians who held the lava down and when they died Valyria exploded. Now people in the West seem to think that magic is dead.

I think magic is dead, because most of the magicians were obliterated in the Doom. Mayhaps, those who survived hid in fear of the Faceless Men. Now, with the return of dragons we might see a return of the Valyrian magicians.

Dany could go to Westeros, but the greatest country the world has ever seen was Valyria.

In our world, the Franks, the Germans, the Byzantines and the Russians all made claims to being the successor to Rome. But each did so in their homeland. At times, some of them included the ruins of Rome within their boundaries, but none returned and made Rome their capital.

Aegon the Conqueror and his descendants have not yet returned to claim Valyria, but they ruled Westos as Valyrians. They kept the dream of Valyria alive in their house and the people of Westeros held them in awe. The Targaryens were the spiritual and cultural successors of Valyria.

What if Dany comes to see Valyria as her home and not some backwater dump like Westeros?

 

[the smiling weirwood]

She'd have to kill an awful lot of demons and put some souls to rest, not to mention rebuilding a peninsula, but the idea is a good one. Especially now, when she's embarking on this campaign of freedom for all. Very progressive, no?

 

[TK-421]

What if Dany comes to see Valyria as her home and not some backwater dump like Westeros?

Unlikely, especially with Dorne and the Iron Islands sending emmissaries to influence her return. I guess it depends if she decides to travel to old Valyria and if she learns to control her dragons.

But good post about Jaime and Cersei.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

I think we'd all (well, at least I had) thought before that Jaime might kill Cersei, but that he'd do it out of anger, revenge, or jealousy. The idea that he might do it to stop her from going postal on the whole country would be a nice twist.

I've said this before, and I guess I'll say it again. I don't think Jaime could physically kill Cersei. He's starting to question his motives before acting, and he does still love her. I do think he would let her die, though... *cough* burnt letter *cough*

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

I've said this before, and I guess I'll say it again. I don't think Jaime could physically kill Cersei. He's starting to question his motives before acting, and he does still love her. I do think he would let her die, though... *cough* burnt letter *cough*

Yeah! I agree with someone....umm nothing to see here....move along.

 

[BasiliskPie]

... So [Dany] brings the dragons to KL and then completes Roberts cycle. Of course that would point to her killing Jaime (as Robert killed Rhaegar). ...

A rather late comment on the above: Jaime's character is mired in redemption, and I think it most-likely he'll end up dying in selfless protection of a non-familial [unrelated] "King" -- wouldn't at all surprise me if it was in defence of Dany, or [less likely] Jon or Bran, or [least-likely] Sansa -- and in so doing he would doom Cersei and his family's pretentions to rule.

An alternative "salvation" would be to die protecting Brienne -- or, even more redemptively, to marry her, whereafter they live out life as two exhausted, armless warriors!

I can't see Dany coming to KL until she's saved the North by driving the Others away with true Dragon Fire. Unless she's -welcomed- to KL, it's just the beginning of another four books of battle-gore; and what better way to be welcomed to KL than to arrive after saving Westeros and being embraced by Lord Snow, leader of the Wildings and Crows, as rightful ruler?

Blah, blah, blah... (and no, I think Jon has better taste than to bed her although he is probably the child of the Prophecy). What a silly and unsupported first post I've made!

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

A rather late comment on the above: Jaime's character is mired in redemption, and I think it most-likely he'll end up dying in selfless protection of a non-familial [unrelated] "King" -- wouldn't at all surprise me if it was in defence of Dany, or [less likely] Jon or Bran, or [least-likely] Sansa -- and in so doing he would doom Cersei and his family's pretentions to rule.

An alternative "salvation" would be to die protecting Brienne -- or, even more redemptively, to marry her, whereafter they live out life as two exhausted, armless warriors!

I can't see Dany coming to KL until she's saved the North by driving the Others away with true Dragon Fire. Unless she's -welcomed- to KL, it's just the beginning of another four books of battle-gore; and what better way to be welcomed to KL than to arrive after saving Westeros and being embraced by Lord Snow, leader of the Wildings and Crows, as rightful ruler?

Blah, blah, blah... (and no, I think Jon has better taste than to bed her although he is probably the child of the Prophecy). What a silly and unsupported first post I've made!

First....welcome to the forums....
I would type out my 6 rules to essential GRRM posting but as Im largely ignored and universally wrong Ill let you figure em out on yer own

Of course that was a purely unsupported post....this thread is titled "pure speculation" . While support is nice, never let the lack thereof get in the way of crazy theory. Seriously we would then have nothing to mock you for.

I pray the Brienne-Jaime twist cycle of love thing is over. I pray in my heart of hearts, in dark places I dont even want to admit exist....I pray that its over. I get what it was, the beginning of path for Jaime...but let the horror
end there. Brienne deserves something different in her life. Whats left of it...

I dont really see it possible for Dany to even learn of the assault on the north til after she lands at KL. Heres my favorite scenario....

1) Dany lands at KL. No battle breaks out as everyone is sufficiently cowed by the dragons...and as of yet Dany is unwilling to unleash them on a populace

2)She of course asks to speak to the leaders....learns the Robert, Ned, Jon Arryn, and Twyin are all dead....everyone she wanted to kill except Jaime.
Demands Jaimes death.....Jaime then demands trial by battle to spare KL with her champion....she chooses a dragon....predictable outcome ensues....

3) Mulls over what to do...all she has to do is kill a child (maybe two...Tommen and Mycella) and shes queen. Shes not willing to do that.

4) Epic battle begins in north....Dany has an army....allied to Dorne and the Ironborn heads north to take care of it...

5) Destroys evil Stannis possesed by demonic entity....dies in process.

6) People demand a new ruler....choose Jon....Jon refuses.....chaos ensues...Arya kills everyone named Fred, Sansa gets her moonblood....

The end

 

[Boaz]

Welcome BP!

Excellent post! I love speculation...

Why would Dany go to the North instead of KL? She has no idea of the threat of the Other, yet. Unless Illyrio tells her (and why would he care), she will not know. Tyrion does not know the danger of the Other and neither do Quentyn nor Victarion. Will Quentyn, Victarion, or Tyrion convince her to land first at Dorne, the Iron Islands or Casterly Rock before going to KL?


Someone has to convince Dany that defeating the Other is paramount. Who could do it? Davos, Jon, Sam, or Melissandre...

As to Jaime marrying Brienne... you gotta convince me that Brienne is not dead. Jaime will end up marrying dead Brienne, the Un-Wench, before he marries Brienne.

Yes, Jaime's story is about redemption. But will he allowed to grow old and fade away as a legend? No. I think you have it right that he'll die in defence of a ruler. But serving Dany? This is inconceivable. Jaime, and Jaime alone, killed Dany's father. Everyone knows him as The Kingslayer. How is Dany going to learn why Jaime slew Aerys? Only Jaime and Brienne know the truth (if Jaime's story is the truth). Jaime has never deigned to tell anyone the truth... he's allowed them to pass prejudicial judgement upon him because he's arrogant and proud. It amused Jaime to know that the one deed that earned him everlasting derision was actually the noblest and most selfless act he'd commited.

Somewhere in Jaime's journey towards redemption, he decided that at least one person needed to know that he was not without honor, not without the ability to sacrifice, not without the soul of a knight, and not without compassion on the opressed. I do not think that Jaime will open up to Dany in some private moment and try to convince her that murdering her father was the right thing to do.

Dany is Jaime's implacable enemy. Dany is Tyrion's implacable enemy also and I would not give a fig for Tyrion's life unless Illyrio or Barristan secures a pardon for him before she sets here bloodriders on him. The only way I see this happening is if Illyrio, Varys, and Barristan can prove that Tyrion is actually Aerys' *******. If this happened and Tyrion became part of Dany's court and if Tyion forgave Jaime for the lie about Tysha and if Tyrion felt sorry for the things he said to Jaime and if he knew the truth about Aerys' plot to blow KL sky high and if he knew that Jaime saved the lives of thousands of people thereby not bringing disgrace upon House Targaryen, then perhaps Dany might spare the Kingslayer. Until then I'd expect Jaime to die in defence of Tommen, Myrcella, Margaery, Kevan, Lancel, Daven or which ever Lannister sits the Iron Throne.

Aegon, Dany unwilling to kill Tommen and Myrcella? Sure, but Darkstar, Bronn, the Bloodriders, Daario, Loras, Arya, Grey Worm, Jaqen, Illyrio, Taena, Varys, and most of the Freakshow that Dany calls her court will be willing to do it. The very fact that Dany is in KL shows what a huge mistake it is to allow the children of a deposed dynasty to live! Heck, Jorah would do it if it earned him the right to come home.

For Dany to take the throne, House Lannister must be eradicated. Cersei, Tommen, Myrcella, Lancel, Kevan, Genna, Emmon Frey and all the rest must die. Imagine the sweet irony of playing the Rains of Castamere at all the Lannister funerals! Too bad, the Lannisters are my favorites. Oh well.

Stannis being possessed by the Other? Hmmmmm. I'll have to think about this one.

Now, everyone feel free to shoot my ideas all to pieces...

 

[Koopa]

Yes, but still its is almost impossible to kill all the Lannisters, especially since new ones seem to come popping up all the time

 

[the smiling weirwood]

We don't know Tyrion is a Targaryen *******. I would be dissappointed if it was so. Tyrion is so much more poetic as the truest Lannister of all but outwardly alien. Much like a parallel of Jaime.

Jaime is outwardly the Kingslayer but inwardly very much a knight. Tyrion is apparently a freak, a disgrace to House Lannister but is actually the truest lion among them.

I can't believe Tyrion is a Targaryen. If the Lyanna and Rhaegar theory proves to be true then to have yet another Targaryen ******* pop up would be cheap.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

You know what I would love? If Jaime had never pushed Bran out the window, I would enjoy his character so much more. The positive relationship he has with Tyrion (Sure he did betray him that one time, that was at the behest of an overbearing father so he gets a pass...but other than that he showed true brotherly respect and love for him), the saving of Kings Landing from Aerys, his obvious growth in respect to his relationship with Brienne, the misunderstood nature of his honor, the way he handles the Kingsguard, and even his wierd love/hate relationship with Cersei (for the record they both love Cersei, and both hate Jaime) all makes for a true misunderstood hero with room for self-growth. But he pushed Bran out a window....I try to let that go but I just cant. Maybe its me...

Boaz, for the record I believe Dany needs to burn poor little Tommen to cinders. And Mycella too. Heck I would in her position without even blinking, for the sake of all the thousands of people who would die a few generations from now in the Lannisters name. But, GRRM enjoys his internal torment so I think Dany is not going to want to and take some time to think about it.

Oh and Im with the Scarlet Tree...I would be so disappointed with Tyrion being a Targ I couldnt stand to be near me. Theres significant setup for the R+L=J but theres only minimal amount for the Targareyen Tyrion. Only circumspect information, and as the saying goes "you cant prove a negative"....in other word I cant prove Tyrion is not a Targ ******* but that doesnt make it true.

You know what...If Tyrion does turn out to be a Targ, Ill read the entire Wheel of Time as punishment

 

[Boaz]

You know what...If Tyrion does turn out to be a Targ, Ill read the entire Wheel of Time as punishment

That's cruel and unusual punishment to be sure.

You know the only reason I seem to keep bringing up the Tyrion as a Targ is that I think I might have come up with that crazy theory on my own... or maybe not. But the theory is like my own little, misfigured, misshapen, and unwanted baby... kind of like Tyrion.

tsw and AtU, I echo your sentiments about the Lannister boys. They are by far my favorite characters. Tyrion is a lion.

Now just a few comments on Jaime. Pros: Awesome fighter (well, he used to be), brave, dashing, saved KL from Aerys, Kingsguard, striving to keep his vows to family, crown, and Catelyn, helps Brienne, trying to learn to not just command armies, but guide the realm. Cons: Commited treason against Aerys, commited treason against Robert, incestuous, conspired to murder Jory Cassel, attempted to murder Bran, commited treason against Tommen.

I like Jaime, but he's a bad guy. Stannis said something to the effect of "Good deeds don't cancel out evil deeds, each has it's own merits or consequences." In some ways, Jaime is a hero. In other respects, Jaime is a dastardly villain. Jaime has served four kings and betrayed three of them. He did not betray Joffrey, because he was basically a prisoner the whole time.

I like the way that Jaime is trying to forge a new life for himself that is not dependent upon his past actions. But he'll never escape the mistrust, the derision, and the hatred that comes with his nickname. Until Jaime got his own POV, I believed him to be a sociopath... a man who absolutely disregarded society's mores when he acted. Now I see him more as a narcissist coming out of a dream.

He's been completely self absorbed, but now he realizes that his deeds need to be tempered with regard for the consequences to others. For example, he tries to talk sense into Lancel, not only because of the consequences for himself, but also for Cersei, Myrcella, Tommen, Lancel, and the realm. Jaime also takes Pia to help give her a new start and then he counsels Peck on how to treat her. But the most glaring example of Jaime's new awareness of how others are affected by his words and deeds come from his threat to Edmure, "...with a trebuchet." Jaime knows what others will think of him, but he knows he'll be saving lives of many who had nothing to do with the Game of Thrones.

 

[Enoch]

first post
quick thoughts:

jon is rahaegar/lyanna's kid (blue roses, bed of blood, tower of joy, queen of beauty, etc...) Martin has all but shouted it. how he finds out... not that important

don't really think Tyrion is the third head. he will build the saddles/harnesses for the dragons, though. Much as Tywin lannister may have hated tyrion, he did treat him as a true-born son. the "third head" is most likely a new character. there is plenty of valyrian blood flying around (Daynes, Hightowers, Baratheons) Martin will make someone.

jamie kills cersei. his "hands" will be the left and his new golden one, or something clever like how Tyrion offed Shaye . cersei gets out and does something horrible (no surprise there) that makes jamie break an oath/promise (e.g. kills brienne) that's the last straw and she's offed in a fit of blind rage.

frankengreggor is killed by bran fighting through Hodor. (btw Hodor is a northman through and through, blood of old Nan) Bran gets to be a knight after all.

Rickon comes back after his walkabout with Osha. he is a wild beserker type. Rob come again as it were, but more wildling than northman. maybe a new king beyond the wall? either way he pulls the northmen together and maybe also puts the smackdown on the ironborn.

arya has to sneak into the red keep at some point to kill someone. she uses the tunnels where she first saw varys/illyrio

the hound lives, but is reformed. he's "sandor' now. sansa eventually finds him. plays the seduction card and pulls him out of retirement to kill her enemies. he dies in the process, she sings him a song before he dies.

varys and illyrio reveal a third (possibly more) partner (mayhap the maester of magic from AFFC. they are the illuminati/wizard guild of westeros trying to bring back the age of magic (possibly in conflict with the citadel)

jon will give up the title of commander of the nights watch. someone else will take the role. he may keep his oath, but he wont be the commander. he's the 998th. that seems significant. either the next one or the one after that will have something going on... maybe he takes up a role as queen's councilor/advisior in matters of the lands beyond the wall?

quick note from earlier posts. Mellisandre is a red priest, but she is also what martin has dubbed a "shadowbinder" she and thoros share the gifts of rhollor (seeing into the future, etc...) but she has some extra powers she learned on the side. Kinda like Mirri Maz Dur. she was a priestess of the lamb god, but was also a maegi.

all for now....

 

[IlliferThePenniless]

Enoch-

Welcome aboard. I'm rather new here myself, but it's always nice to have to have new people around providing perspective...

Jon is rahaegar/lyanna's kid (blue roses, bed of blood, tower of joy, queen of beauty, etc...) Martin has all but shouted it. how he finds out... not that important

You won't get any argument from me or, I think, most folks around these parts. Though, I do think that speculating on how Jon/Dany finds out is half the fun.

don't really think Tyrion is the third head. he will build the saddles/harnesses for the dragons, though. Much as Tywin lannister may have hated tyrion, he did treat him as a true-born son. the "third head" is most likely a new character. there is plenty of valyrian blood flying around (Daynes, Hightowers, Baratheons) Martin will make someone.

I've been thinking a lot about this lately and I think Tyrion is the best of a wide field of candidates for the third head. Martin has said that one doesn't have to be Valryian to be be one of the heads... I think Bran's a decent candidate as well. If fake Aegon proves to be a real Aegon then he'll jump right to top of the list. There's also, presumably, some Bittersteel descendants in The Golden Company who we haven't met but might prove important. (I'm pretty sure neither the Dayes or the Hightowers are Valryian, and the Baratheons, I think, barely count)

jamie kills cersei. his "hands" will be the left and his new golden one, or something clever like how Tyrion offed Shaye . cersei gets out and does something horrible (no surprise there) that makes jamie break an oath/promise (e.g. kills brienne) that's the last straw and she's offed in a fit of blind rage.

I don't think there's any doubt that Jaime's going to kill Cersei, the imagine of that golden hand choking her to death is just too sweet.

frankengreggor is killed by bran fighting through Hodor. (btw Hodor is a northman through and through, blood of old Nan) Bran gets to be a knight after all.

I'd be very surprised if this is right. Seems to me that Sandor is likely candidate to finally get a shot at his brother. If there's a Stark involved there I think it'll almost certainly be Sansa (She's attached to a couple of visions that may or not be Gregor despite the fact he hasn't really had much affect on her story thus far... "a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood," and "slaying a savage giant in a castle built of snow"

Rickon comes back after his walkabout with Osha. he is a wild beserker type. Rob come again as it were, but more wildling than northman. maybe a new king beyond the wall? either way he pulls the northmen together and maybe also puts the smackdown on the ironborn.

I would dearly love for this to be right. But I just don't see how the series lasts long enough for Rickon to be more then 11 or 12 when it's done, not quite old enough for him to do any serious ass kicking

Arya has to sneak into the red keep at some point to kill someone. she uses the tunnels where she first saw varys/illyrio

Sure. Though I don't really expect her to get trough her training. She's got too much of a sense of self.

the hound lives, but is reformed. he's "sandor' now. sansa eventually finds him. plays the seduction card and pulls him out of retirement to kill her enemies. he dies in the process, she sings him a song before he dies.

We can be pretty sure we've already seen the hound alive again right? At the isle of silence or whatever it was called. I think he's only going to have eyes for his brother when he hears about the Qyborg and Sansa won't be involved unless she gets herself in the way. She already sang him a song on the night he fled Kings Landing.

varys and illyrio reveal a third (possibly more) partner (mayhap the maester of magic from AFFC. they are the illuminati/wizard guild of westeros trying to bring back the age of magic (possibly in conflict with the citadel)

Do you think Varys' professed hatred of magic is just a pose?

jon will give up the title of commander of the nights watch. someone else will take the role. he may keep his oath, but he wont be the commander. he's the 998th. that seems significant. either the next one or the one after that will have something going on... maybe he takes up a role as queen's councilor/advisior in matters of the lands beyond the wall?

998 seems oddly significant to me as well... I'm convinced that the Wall isn't going to survive the series, that the Others will have to breach it in some way or another (maybe with Mel's help...?). But Jon's oath to the night watch isn't actually predicated on the wall standing. I know everybody and their mother thinks he's going to end up with Dany, but I think he's done with oath breaking. Maybe they'll fall in love but be kept apart by their separate duties... Then again, his oath only says he'll father no children and Dany is barren anyway...

quick note from earlier posts. Mellisandre is a red priest, but she is also what martin has dubbed a "shadowbinder" she and thoros share the gifts of rhollor (seeing into the future, etc...) but she has some extra powers she learned on the side. Kinda like Mirri Maz Dur. she was a priestess of the lamb god, but was also a maegi

I think the general feeling around here (if I'm qualified to speak to that) is that there's something very off about Mel. She's either not what she says she is, or she's a total loon and a fool. Hard to know which, but I suspect it'll become clear in ADwD.

Cheers, I look forward to having you around.

 

[the smiling weirwood]

This is some powerful thread necromancy, but welcome.

 

[TK-421]

You are most welcome here. Good for you to use this thread instead of just starting a new one. Avoids me giving the old fish slap.

I do believe that the Dayne's and Hightower's are Valyrian as are the Connington's (Young Griff anyone...).

 

[the smiling weirwood]

Except GRRM has specifically said that the Daynes and Hightowers are not Valyrian.

 

[TK-421]

Oh crap. Well, there you go. I have no credibility. So, who are Valyrians apart from the Targaryens and Baratheons?
Lannisters?
Tyrells?
Am I at least right on the Conningtons?

Where is the World of ASOIAF book when you need it!

 

[Werthead]

The only Valyrian-descended families we know of are the Targaryens and Velaryons. From the sound of it, most of the other Valyrian families allied to the Targs (and they were not numerous) settled on Dragonstone or the surrounding islands before the invasion.

House Baratheon was founded by Orys, Aegon Targaryen's ******* half-brother, and the daughter of Argilac the Arrogant, the last Storm King, so it's only partially descended from Valyrian origins.

The Hightowers are among the oldest native Westerosi families in the south, going back to well before the Andal invasion when the still worshipped the old gods. They simply accepted the Faith of the Seven and intermarried into the Andals and then accepted the Targaryen rule and so on. That's why Oldtown is called 'Old'town, as it is one of the oldest settlements on the continent.

The Lannisters and Tyrells are definitely descended from the Andals as well. The Conningtons are likely also Andal-descended. The number of Valyrian-descended families in Westeros is extremly small.

 

[TK-421]

Wert, you are a gentleman and scholar. Thank you for that clarification. I will now shut up on anything related to where the different Houses are descended from.