Freys - Vengeance or Mercy?

[TK-421]

The Lannisters and Freys have at least something in common: They both look like the same thing to a dragon - lunch!!!

 

[Funky Cthulu]

Quote
"Hey Arya, I wasn't bother by any of the comments at all. Call me silly but I get the vibe that you think I (or someone else) was. Your appology (if it was to me) was unneccessary (though I like the kindness behind it). In case it doesn't come across, please note that my communication and writing style is naturally a little sarcastic, so assume any negatives from me are meant to be taken as a little tongue-and-cheek. And I get a kick out of all the different opinions and feelings spewing and vomiting out onto this website."

Hey Wil,
That was me actually Thanks, I was a bit worried after I read your post and Genesis2's. I thought "eep! I don't appear as an incest lover, do I?" *grin* I shall remember that for future posts.Although someone slap me if I ever actually 'vomit' out my opinion! Actually, I like that phrase - next time I encounter a really offputting drunk ranter, I'll tell em that!

"I dig (like) the Freys cause they're the outsiders making good in the elite society. I'll admit it, I relate to that. They're a little rough around the edges yet can still compete with the others. Some of them are a little sleazy, but hey, which of the other families doesn't have a blemish or 2? (Which of us haven't been a little too sleezy or a little too drunk once in our life?) I say to heck with it! Cockroaches for King!"

I can understand that - it will be interesting to see how far and how fast they can climb the ladder before the Lannisters fall from power. I guess I would like them better if I thought they'd be any different from the other major Houses. Heh heh, now have a mental image of a giant cockroach wearing a crown and holding a sceptre in one of its feet.

"As for the incest, I dig GM's handling of it and want to see it continue. Hell! Incest for everyone! We'll have to wait for Arya to mature a bit though. Because Pedophilia is NOT acceptable."

I think its interesting there don't seem to be a lot of major objections to Drogo marrying and bedding a 13 year old girl? Cos, frankly, that squicked me a lot more than C + J getting it on! C'mon, she's not even fully grown! No wonder she couldn't carry her baby to term, her hips were probably only half as wide as the average adult womans. Yes, I know it was Mirri Maz Duur, supposedly, but maybe GRRM was throwing us a red herring on that one?
Anyways, back to the topic:
AryaUnderfoot wrote:
" However, the difference between them and the Freys is that the Lannisters at least try to uphold the reputation of their family in the "public" eye, all kingslaying aside, while the Freys are very open about their greed, envy, and conniving ways."

Hmm..well, that makes them easy to despis in the eyes of the other Houses, but my respect went up a notch. If you're going to be ruthless, just do it! And don't pretend to be ashamed afterwards unless you really are - not referring to you personally, of course I think the Houses could use a dose of honesty - pretending to be 'good' and comply to a set of values when you're rampantly cheating seems pointless to me - cos you can only hide it for so long. Thats what hamstrung poor Ned and Robb, in the end - they believed that their enemies would do as they said - just as the Starks always had. Does that make any sense? Way too early in the morning for me right now.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

Hey Arya, I wasn't bother by any of the comments at all...

Thanks bro, but that was all Funky C, not me.

Some of them are a little sleazy, but hey, which of the other families doesn't have a blemish or 2? (Which of us haven't been a little too sleezy or a little too drunk once in our life?) I say to heck with it! Cockroaches for King!

Well, I have no doubt that more than one of us has done a thing or three that we're not proud of. The thing is, there's normal, like downing too many beers and puking on your neighbor's lawn or making out with a stranger, and then there's inviting someone into your home, telling them they're safe, and then slaughtering them. Oh, and don't forget the part about violating hearth laws even more and sewing an animal's head onto the body of the man to whom you swore fealty. Even for a cockroach, that's low. And all because Frey Sr. breeds like a rat and has an exaggerated sense of entitlement.

 

[Trey Greyjoy]

, there's normal, like downing too many beers and puking on your neighbor's lawn or making out with a stranger,

So did you do those all on the same night and in that order Arya??

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

Hmm..well, that makes them easy to despis in the eyes of the other Houses, but my respect went up a notch. If you're going to be ruthless, just do it! And don't pretend to be ashamed afterwards unless you really are - not referring to you personally, of course I think the Houses could use a dose of honesty - pretending to be 'good' and comply to a set of values when you're rampantly cheating seems pointless to me - cos you can only hide it for so long. Thats what hamstrung poor Ned and Robb, in the end - they believed that their enemies would do as they said - just as the Starks always had. Does that make any sense? Way too early in the morning for me right now.

That's the thing, though, that Cersei is beginning to learn in AFFC: appearances are very important, especially when the lower classes are finding a voice, as it were. Ruthlessness is admirable to a certain extent, but when you get down to the nitty gritty, if nothing is held sacred then it will all quickly turn into chaos. That's why this last book has that title- everything sacred has been defiled. The people are losing their faith in the system that was used to be somewhat upheld by the ruling class. Ned and Robb may have failed, but their smallfolk will be more likely to support their successors than any who have seen the Frey's example.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

So did you do those all on the same night and in that order Arya??

Every night.

No, I'm going to plead the fifth on this one. I'm just saying that there are certain mistakes or slipups that are permissible, and then there are the extremes.

 

[Funky Cthulu]

That's the thing, though, that Cersei is beginning to learn in AFFC: appearances are very important, especially when the lower classes are finding a voice, as it were. Ruthlessness is admirable to a certain extent, but when you get down to the nitty gritty, if nothing is held sacred then it will all quickly turn into chaos. That's why this last book has that title- everything sacred has been defiled. The people are losing their faith in the system that was used to be somewhat upheld by the ruling class. Ned and Robb may have failed, but their smallfolk will be more likely to support their successors than any who have seen the Frey's example.

Yes, thats an excellent point. I guess it comes down to the values held by the majority of the population. And the ruling classes are definitely not in the majority of a feudal society. Its heartening to think that the working classes would prefer a good and just ruler on the throne - and not just for their own skins. Although they probably reason, sensibly, that any ruler who slaughters other nobles (or cooks them alive in their own armour, for instance) will eventually get around to doing it to the working classes too.
Excellent post, the title makes a lot more sense to me now - all that was good in Roberts reign is dead and rotting and being devoured by crows.
Although I wonder if the people in Dany's current kingdoms who are starving care about how just and good she is? Of course, they would hope this would lead her (Dany) to making sure they got fed, but some may be wondering if it would be better to be a well fed slave than a starving freedman. Sometimes values go out the window when prosperity is offered. Did GRRM ever say how the commoners felt about the Aerys Targ? I can't remember.
Really *MUST* go to bed now!

 

[TK-421]

all that was good in Roberts reign is dead and rotting and being devoured by crows.
Although I wonder if the people in Dany's current kingdoms who are starving care about how just and good she is? Of course, they would hope this would lead her (Dany) to making sure they got fed, but some may be wondering if it would be better to be a well fed slave than a starving freedman. Sometimes values go out the window when prosperity is offered.

Thank you! I have been trying to make a similar point for a while now and you are obviously more eloquent in how you put it than I ever was. For those who believe that Dany will be seenas a foreign invader, I say GRRM has certainly not set it up that way and MANY will flock to her banners if she is seen as a savious, unifier and a way towards peace...and food. The new armed Sparrows will have a strong influence. Can Dany win them over? Can she then appease them? Or have the Tyrells already gotten to them (although I am not convinced the Tyrells have fully given up on the Targaryen cause).

The Freys and their twin castles will burn.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

Although I wonder if the people in Dany's current kingdoms who are starving care about how just and good she is? Of course, they would hope this would lead her (Dany) to making sure they got fed, but some may be wondering if it would be better to be a well fed slave than a starving freedman. Sometimes values go out the window when prosperity is offered. Did GRRM ever say how the commoners felt about the Aerys Targ? I can't remember.

This is an important development for Dany, because she's learning to plan ahead. As for her freed slaves, I'd say the grass is always greener. I think this will be good preparation for when she arrives in Westeros, where the working class has been trampled, their crops destroyed, their livestock slaughtered, and their social structure in ruins. Not to mention, Winter is coming, with the Others in it's wake. She'll have her work cut out for her, and not just dealing with the petty gripes of the ruling class.

As for how the smallfolk viewed Aerys, I'm not sure, but I gather that Robert Baratheon received a hearty enough welcome.

 

[Wil]

Sorry bout the name mixup but yall got me point.

Also, I was going to insert a picture of a cockroach here with a scepter in its hand, but they really are disgusting creatures and the picture made me sick (I now appreciate Funky C's line "touching a cockroach" even more. )

The 13 year old bride thing didn't bother me so much cause I'd read about it happening so often in medival days. Upon reflection, yes, it's pretty "icky."

Finaly, the civil war is not over and things are just going to get worse, much worse. Once Dani shows up with her 10k dinkie-less and her fire-breathing, Others-scorching, Zombie-cooking dragons, she'll be the last and final hope and everyone will flock to her, even the Freys.

After that I think she will assume the Gods dealt out punishment enough, in the form of the destruction caused by the Others, and she will let the past go and move on (plus most of those to be punished will have died (except for Tyrion)).

 

[the smiling weirwood]

I objected to Drogo and Dany! I don't know where but there was an earlier thread or at least part of one where that issue was discussed. It makes some sense in the story but I don't understand people who seemed as if they were positively excited about it.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

I objected to Drogo and Dany! I don't know where but there was an earlier thread or at least part of one where that issue was discussed. It makes some sense in the story but I don't understand people who seemed as if they were positively excited about it.

I think the reason why some people are willing to approve of Drogo and Dany is because even at the beginning she's never really been a child. It's hard to view her in that light. I'm definitely not saying that I approve of older men taking child brides, but... Daenerys, compared to Sansa at the same age, was far more mature and prepared for that type of development in her life. Besides, her other option was to marry Viserys. 'Nuff said.

 

[genisis2]

Quote

Hey Wil,
That was me actually Thanks, I was a bit worried after I read your post and Genesis2's. I thought "eep! I don't appear as an incest lover, do I?" *grin* I shall remember that for future posts.Although someone slap me if I ever actually 'vomit' out my opinion! Actually, I like that phrase - next time I encounter a really offputting drunk ranter, I'll tell em that!

LOL - Look it all the stuff I miss in 2 days. No you dont appear as an INCEST LOVER, man did I laugh when I read that.

Umm anyway.
I agree the Incest is concentual soooo it may not read as if they have a few screws loose ( the sicko's ) but when they get caught by Bran and Jaime attempts to kill him. Cmon now can we really quibble on who is worse the Frey's or Jaime's character in the first book.

 

[the smiling weirwood]

I think the reason why some people are willing to approve of Drogo and Dany is because even at the beginning she's never really been a child. It's hard to view her in that light. I'm definitely not saying that I approve of older men taking child brides, but... Daenerys, compared to Sansa at the same age, was far more mature and prepared for that type of development in her life. Besides, her other option was to marry Viserys. 'Nuff said.

This is very true, but I was really more disturbed by some people's apparent ,for lack of a better word, titillation by the situation.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Live overseas a few years....youll see all kinds of crazy stuff. Is that my ethnocentrism peaking through? Yes it is.

Thank you! I have been trying to make a similar point for a while now and you are obviously more eloquent in how you put it than I ever was. For those who believe that Dany will be seenas a foreign invader, I say GRRM has certainly not set it up that way and MANY will flock to her banners if she is seen as a savious, unifier and a way towards peace...and food. The new armed Sparrows will have a strong influence. Can Dany win them over? Can she then appease them? Or have the Tyrells already gotten to them (although I am not convinced the Tyrells have fully given up on the Targaryen cause).

The Freys and their twin castles will burn.

Ahem, this has to be directed at me right? I mean, Im the only one who says Dany is a potential invader, right? But thats okay TK, Ill play the part of the wookie in this discussion.

Welcome to President George W Bush's war-spin office. Im certain his people said every thing you said there, and yet the reality turned out different, in both wars, but I digress. The argument I was making wasnt that George was painting her as a ruthless warmonger, clearly thats not the case...George loves Dany, one of the main themes in his book is "try to do the right thing, and it ends up for naught anyhow", refer to Stark; Eddard, Lannister; Tyrion, Stark; Robb, Brienne, The Viper, etc.....but that in reality she was a warmonger. Bringing war to a people that ousted you is just as bad as the real world stuff we abhore. The problem is "spin". George is spinning it one way, but I assure you the BBC (or your choice of media outlet not named Fox) would spin it another. No youre right, George Martin is going to have the people rise up and accept Dany the invader because thats the romantic version we have in our heads. The reality is different thats all, and Im not looking forward to being disappointed.

 

[Funky Cthulu]

Live overseas a few years....youll see all kinds of crazy stuff. Is that my ethnocentrism peaking through? Yes it is.



Ahem, this has to be directed at me right? I mean, Im the only one who says Dany is a potential invader, right? But thats okay TK, Ill play the part of the wookie in this discussion.

Welcome to President George W Bush's war-spin office. Im certain his people said every thing you said there, and yet the reality turned out different, in both wars, but I digress. The argument I was making wasnt that George was painting her as a ruthless warmonger, clearly thats not the case...George loves Dany, one of the main themes in his book is "try to do the right thing, and it ends up for naught anyhow", refer to Stark; Eddard, Lannister; Tyrion, Stark; Robb, Brienne, The Viper, etc.....but that in reality she was a warmonger. Bringing war to a people that ousted you is just as bad as the real world stuff we abhore. The problem is "spin". George is spinning it one way, but I assure you the BBC (or your choice of media outlet not named Fox) would spin it another. No youre right, George Martin is going to have the people rise up and accept Dany the invader because thats the romantic version we have in our heads. The reality is different thats all, and Im not looking forward to being disappointed.

hmmm..I guess that begs the question - "Can there ever be a just war?"

I think the answer may not lie with this generation of people who suffer from it, but their children and grandchildren. That is - "do THEY live in prosperity? Do they have more freedom now than their grand-parents? And would they be as well off if the old regime had remained?" So the challenge for Dany will be not only to be a good ruler in her day (and preferably avoid another Field of Fire, where she wipes out the flower of knighthood and youth whilst invading) but to set the scene for her successor and THEIR successor to rule wisely and well.
Because the people (well, apart from the nobles) have no choice in this scenario as to who is in charge long-term - a crucial difference between Westeros and Iraq.
This is a point often bought up re WWI and II - was going to war worth it, ultimately? More so for those countries who weren't directly threatened - USA, Australia and others. I think most people would say yes, now,with hindsight. It was an incomprehensible loss for that generation - many people lost not just one, but several people in their families - fathers, brothers, sons, husbands. Not to downplay that many women also died, in and out of combat. So it would be terribly hard for the people left behind of that time not to be bitter and feel it was too much to lose to ever be justified.

But as their descendants, especially in Europe, it is now pretty clear how awful life would have been to continue under Hitler and Stalin for instance - they would have kept on killing their own even if they won the war and they would have installed people just like them to carry on after they died or left office. And the oppressed countries will hopefully never forget what it was like to have a tyrant in office (not that they're to blame) and will be vigilant to prevent anyone like that gaining power again.

BUT - back to the book - I would not have supported Dany's quest if Robert were still alive - and if it weren't for the religious tyranny Stannis brings with him, I would support him over her. But since the kingdom is falling apart, and she's a compassionate, strong ruler who's pretty cluey for a 15 year old - why not? But for my money, bloodlines can go hang, its how well they rule.
I think GRRM has made it pretty clear that the Targs aren't 'perfect' rulers, and there are a lot of capable people who could do the job just as well - but dragons do make for a great trump card.

 

[Funky Cthulu]

Thank you! I have been trying to make a similar point for a while now and you are obviously more eloquent in how you put it than I ever was. For those who believe that Dany will be seenas a foreign invader, I say GRRM has certainly not set it up that way and MANY will flock to her banners if she is seen as a savious, unifier and a way towards peace...and food. The new armed Sparrows will have a strong influence. Can Dany win them over? Can she then appease them? Or have the Tyrells already gotten to them (although I am not convinced the Tyrells have fully given up on the Targaryen cause).

The Freys and their twin castles will burn.

Were the Tyrells strong Targ supporters? I can't really recall.

 

[Dolorous Edd]

Were the Tyrells strong Targ supporters? I can't really recall.

The tyrells came to power as stewards to the reach kings (or something), until the Targs incinerated them all, and gave their lands to the Tyrells. So yes, they owe a lot to the the Targaryen Dynasty. They were one of the last houses to bend the knee to Robert.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

BUT - back to the book - I would not have supported Dany's quest if Robert were still alive - and if it weren't for the religious tyranny Stannis brings with him, I would support him over her. But since the kingdom is falling apart, and she's a compassionate, strong ruler who's pretty cluey for a 15 year old - why not? But for my money, bloodlines can go hang, its how well they rule.
I think GRRM has made it pretty clear that the Targs aren't 'perfect' rulers, and there are a lot of capable people who could do the job just as well - but dragons do make for a great trump card.

Good post FC, way to disagree without disagreeing. I appreciate the discussion of opinion.

My only point of contention would be what about those people whose lives arent being oppressed right now. Other than the Riverlands, and the Arbor theres not really much warfare going on and some people are eating. Danys going to bring fire to them as well. The North is once again Kraken-free (the Boltons are another matter) Greywater Watch is going to be forced to bend the knee, the Vale, the Tyrells...even the peasants of Casterly Rock are going to burn and from what I read their lives arent bad. Theres plenty of people not suffering but Dany is going to burn their rightful leaders as well.

Just food for thought

 

[Funky Cthulu]

Good post FC, way to disagree without disagreeing. I appreciate the discussion of opinion.

My only point of contention would be what about those people whose lives arent being oppressed right now. Other than the Riverlands, and the Arbor theres not really much warfare going on and some people are eating. Danys going to bring fire to them as well. The North is once again Kraken-free (the Boltons are another matter) Greywater Watch is going to be forced to bend the knee, the Vale, the Tyrells...even the peasants of Casterly Rock are going to burn and from what I read their lives arent bad. Theres plenty of people not suffering but Dany is going to burn their rightful leaders as well.

Just food for thought

I'm hoping GRRM will have Dany pull some brilliant diplomatic strategy to prevent that happening - the number of times the Field of Fire is referenced, with how many lives were lost, it would seem predictable to recreate that scenario (I hope!).
And of course, the Others are going to make for a fearsome foe - there may well be some desperate last promise of "Defeat the Others with your flying BBQ lighters and the kingdom is yours!"
But that also seems a little, well, *nice* for ASOIAF.