Freys - Vengeance or Mercy?

[AryaUnderfoot]

My only point of contention would be what about those people whose lives arent being oppressed right now. Other than the Riverlands, and the Arbor theres not really much warfare going on and some people are eating. Danys going to bring fire to them as well. The North is once again Kraken-free (the Boltons are another matter) Greywater Watch is going to be forced to bend the knee, the Vale, the Tyrells...even the peasants of Casterly Rock are going to burn and from what I read their lives arent bad. Theres plenty of people not suffering but Dany is going to burn their rightful leaders as well.

I never really pictured Daenerys flying in and scorching the entire kingdom. Honestly, I don't think it makes much sense to strive to reach Westeros her entire life, build forces and gain loyal supporters, and then go and burn the crap out of what's hers by rights. I don't think she's petty enough to pull the "if I can't have it, no one can" thing.
Furthermore, if she was planning on using her dragons to ignite anything more than fear and respect, why build an army at all? From what I gathered, there aren't a lot of trained dragonslayers in the unemployment lines in Westeros.

As for the comparison of the US' reception in Iraq, well, I can see the similarities in one sense- that the leaders certainly are stuck in the "might makes right" mentality that is also predominant in GRRM's world. But in Dany's case, I don't think there will be a lot of complaint. She's not invading with democracy or anything like that, and she is reclaiming what a usurper did take from her family. Kind of like what Hillary is going to do in '08. HAHAHA.

 

[TK-421]

Ahem, this has to be directed at me right? I mean, Im the only one who says Dany is a potential invader, right? But thats okay TK, Ill play the part of the wookie in this discussion.

HA!HA!. Of course it was directed to you, although I am not as covert as I would like to be. You are after all, one of my favourite provocateurs...(Chewie is one my favourites by the way )

Some very good points made by all afterwards and I do agree the setting the stage in AFFC (appropriateness of the tile as well) is a precursor for Dany's grand entrance. Will it all be for naught? Well, so far she's had to learn those hard lessons in Slavers Bay. She is certainly ALOT less naive than before she became the Mother of Dragons (Sansa could really learn a thing or two from Dany...). I also agree that GRRM is building Dany up and I wonder what would be his answer to the question of who is his favourite character. My gutt says he would answer Dany (Does anyone know??? Red Temple? Raven? Trey?). I like Dany alot more now than when I first started reading her (Mrs. TK-421 a big fan) but I'm more of a Tyrion kind of guy. Anyway, GRRM did say that ending of the series will be "Bittersweet". Wonder what that means for Dany.

As for the parallel to Dubya and Iraq (not to start another political discussion) but I take a much more cynical view of why the war even happened in the first place. Let's just say, I wouldn't be on the list of guests at a party hosted by the Carlisle Group and sposored by Haliburton.

But really in the grand scheme of things the Freys as NOT that major of a house, will not decide the fate of the kingdom and can all burn for all I care.

 

[Funky Cthulu]

"But really in the grand scheme of things the Freys as NOT that major of a house, will not decide the fate of the kingdom and can all burn for all I care."

NOOOO! MUST NOT STOP NOW! Because look how long my thread is getting!
Funky Cthulu - vying for winner of longest ever discussion thread....
Trust me, I can drag this out for however long it takes....and I have a feeling you guys can too!
*grin*

 

[Trey Greyjoy]

I also agree that GRRM is building Dany up and I wonder what would be his answer to the question of who is his favourite character. My gutt says he would answer Dany (Does anyone know??? Red Temple? Raven? Trey?).

RT can refresh my memory, and Raven or Werthead might have "fresher" information, but I seem to recall (through the haze created by mass consumptions of gin that night) that someone asked him that directly one night we were all hanging out at Marcon. (or was it at the reading )
As I recall, he seemed to dismiss the question outright, saying something about them all being his creations and he liked them all. When pressed he mumbled something about Tyrion being a smart-ass like himself and easier to write.
Well, thats the drunk point of view at least. Sorry I cant remember! Whatever he said exactly led me to believe he didnt have a favorite.

 

[Funky Cthulu]

RT can refresh my memory, and Raven or Werthead might have "fresher" information, but I seem to recall (through the haze created by mass consumptions of gin that night) that someone asked him that directly one night we were all hanging out at Marcon. (or was it at the reading )
As I recall, he seemed to dismiss the question outright, saying something about them all being his creations and he liked them all. When pressed he mumbled something about Tyrion being a smart-ass like himself and easier to write.
Well, thats the drunk point of view at least. Sorry I cant remember! Whatever he said exactly led me to believe he didnt have a favorite.

Its possibly a bit like acting - you actually BECOME that character, even if only a little (Gregor Clegane - yuk), in order to write from their perspective. Like method acting, you can only do so much on knowledge - eventually you have to draw on what is inside of yourself to make it convincing. And I suspect in all of us there is a little Jaime, a little Cersei, something we can recall feeling that Dany also feels at some point (disillusion, perhaps?) and hell, maybe even Sansa! And so forth..
I know in fanfic, sometimes(often) a writer will clumsily and obviously insert 'themselves' into the story in the form of a new character who suspiciously does everything right, falls into the arms of the male/female lead and generally eclipses all other characters - I understand that is referred to as 'Mary-Sue(ing)'. Generally found in works by teenage girls who are completely obsessed with a certain TV series and its male lead - the Buffy series, f'rinstance.
So, maybe GRRM empathises with sarcastic dwarfs?
But seriously, I am in no way suggesting GRRM is Mary Sue-ing, I know better than that. But there are other fantasy authors who get caught up in that trap, and since I finally heard the phenomenon gien a name, I've become to notice it in quite a few fantasy/sci fi books..

 

[TK-421]

"NOOOO! MUST NOT STOP NOW! Because look how long my thread is getting!
Funky Cthulu - vying for winner of longest ever discussion thread....
Trust me, I can drag this out for however long it takes....and I have a feeling you guys can too!
*grin*

Here's another post to add to the count, but the longest thread so far is:

Least Favourite Character:
http://www.chronicles-network.com/forum/4543-least-favorite-characters.html

(Followed by Theory on Jon (page 11) and What about Sansa? (Page 2))

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

But seriously, I am in no way suggesting GRRM is Mary Sue-ing

I dunno, to me he screams bloodthirsty ten-year-old girl.

 

[Trey Greyjoy]

I dunno, to me he screams bloodthirsty ten-year-old girl.

Youre thinking of Lewis Carroll.

 

[the smiling weirwood]

Good post FC, way to disagree without disagreeing. I appreciate the discussion of opinion.

My only point of contention would be what about those people whose lives arent being oppressed right now. Other than the Riverlands, and the Arbor theres not really much warfare going on and some people are eating. Danys going to bring fire to them as well. The North is once again Kraken-free (the Boltons are another matter) Greywater Watch is going to be forced to bend the knee, the Vale, the Tyrells...even the peasants of Casterly Rock are going to burn and from what I read their lives arent bad. Theres plenty of people not suffering but Dany is going to burn their rightful leaders as well.

Just food for thought

What? What about The Reach? It's being invaded by Ironmen! And everyone in the Riverlands have no Autumn harvests! Unless there is some major food redistribution they're all going to starve.

 

[Funky Cthulu]

What? What about The Reach? It's being invaded by Ironmen! And everyone in the Riverlands have no Autumn harvests! Unless there is some major food redistribution they're all going to starve.

Makes me wonder where Dany is going to GET the food to distribute? I originally thought that she could just plunder the Arbour and Oldtown and other rich areas and everyone would eat decent if not fabulous food.But when that runs out, the poorer areas will probably need atleast a year to get the next harvest in, providing winter doesn't bite too hard.So unless she can get preserved food from her already conquered kingdoms (and the ships may take a while unless she uses air-freight, as it were) without draining them...looks like we'll be seeing a very lean period and a fair bit of population die-off.
And now I'm wondering if I'm a little obsessed with this series...

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

What? What about The Reach? It's being invaded by Ironmen! And everyone in the Riverlands have no Autumn harvests! Unless there is some major food redistribution they're all going to starve.

Hmm SW, I did say other than the Riverlands and the Arbor, and I know you have to stretch it a little bit to include the Reach in the definition of the Arbor but cut me some slack. But thats still just two Houses out of how many?

Its not that I think Dany is going to scour Westeros with fire (even though I have implied that) its just some people are legitimate rulers and are not doing a bad job with their people. What about them? What about the Tyrells? (I can hear Queen Cersei now..."Tyrells? why burn em, I dont understand the discussion") Their people seem well-fed, and the rulers reasonably decent people. I doubt they bend a knee easily, if only because theyve kind of thrown their lot in with the Lannisters, and would lose influence if they went back to being a mere player again. They deserve to die? How about Tywins brother whom we all seem to adore? He's not bending. But he's one of the Lannisters so odds are good hes going to have someone in his charge burned to a crispy cinder. Its easy to say that the Freys need to burn, or Cersei, or Stannis....but what about the people who are only trying to determine their own lives? Do they have a right to do so? or is Dany going to take that away?

One final note, any comparisons to the Bush/Dany warfighting is solely based on the "foreign army liberating an oppressed people". At no point do I wish to discussion why or to what extent....and yes Im looking at you TK.

 

[the smiling weirwood]

What about Dany's mother's right? Or her brother's? Is it because her father was insane, Robert Baratheon had a right to plunge the entire kingdom into civil war when an assasination would have done far better? You also act like everyone has no sense at all and would fight to the death with dragons and a huge army. These people you speak of are for the most part sensible and I think they would realize it's either fire and blood or sore knees. If they were thinking about their people instead of their own egos, they would choose surrender. And in advance of your argument that Dany shouldn't invade if she cares about the people, then look what Baratheon management has done to Westoros. You can argue that almost none of it is directly Robert's fault, but it all is indirectly. A change of rulership might be just what they need.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

What about Dany's mother's right? Or her brother's? Is it because her father was insane, Robert Baratheon had a right to plunge the entire kingdom into civil war when an assasination would have done far better? You also act like everyone has no sense at all and would fight to the death with dragons and a huge army. These people you speak of are for the most part sensible and I think they would realize it's either fire and blood or sore knees. If they were thinking about their people instead of their own egos, they would choose surrender. And in advance of your argument that Dany shouldn't invade if she cares about the people, then look what Baratheon management has done to Westoros. You can argue that almost none of it is directly Robert's fault, but it all is indirectly. A change of rulership might be just what they need.

Woot.....the Weirwood seems spirited today I tell ya. First and foremost extending my argument to Robert isnt a viable tactic. I havent said I condone his actions as a ruler either. Fair enough? Yes Aerys needed to be booted of the throne, but obviously outside of that I condone very little.

So you're telling me that Dany should begin her "enlightened dictatorship" with the statement "Surrender or die" and that anyone who says no Id rather not thank you would then be killed summarily. And this is somehow not Danys fault?

I would agree that if Dany were to show up and everyone fell on their knees in adoration then she should probably be the ruler. But I dont see that happening, people are going to fight this time just like they did when her great great great etc grandpappy showed up before, and people are going to die.

The difference between Robert and Dany plunging the realm into war is choice. Robert had none, Aerys wanted him dead and his best friends besides. It was war ,death, or hiding. Dany still believes someone is out there trying to kill her. I get that. At some point she;s going to realize all her enemies are dead and by extension no one is hunting her. Ive said before, what does she do then? Thats what will determine her character.

 

[the smiling weirwood]

So you're telling me that Dany should begin her "enlightened dictatorship" with the statement "Surrender or die" and that anyone who says no Id rather not thank you would then be killed summarily. And this is somehow not Danys fault?

No. That is what you seem to think. Every time you talk about Dany, you start on the warmonger, mass death and destruction, innocent lives lost, blahblahblah stuff. I was just saying that not everyone would chose to fight, having already seen their homes decimated and people slaughtered, if they didn't want to surrender out of old-regime loyalty.

This invasion "surrender or die" mentality is assuming everyone turns into angry badgers and can't see beyond the immediacy of dragons. Personally, I advocate true reunification instead of this mess the Lannisters made, and I think Dany is the only one who could it.

And that's all completely discounting the possible two political alliances she could make, both of which, depending on which Houses they were, could drastically reduce any bloodshed, of which I don't doubt there will be some. How much depends on how smart Dany gets between then and now.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

No. That is what you seem to think. Every time you talk about Dany, you start on the warmonger, mass death and destruction, innocent lives lost, blahblahblah stuff. I was just saying that not everyone would chose to fight, having already seen their homes decimated and people slaughtered, if they didn't want to surrender out of old-regime loyalty.

Weirwood,

Im not being funny, Im not being sarcastic, Im not even being advesarial... I am just honestly confused.

Throwing popular acclaim out the window, you're saying Dany shows up with Dragons and everyone surrenders because its the wise thing to do. I think I get that, but what if someone doesnt? Theres an implied "surrender or die" in showing up with an army and three dragons on the shores of a country. What does Dany do at that point? There are some people who can not surrender....just cant, because to do so means death anyhow. Really what about them? How many lives lost is an acceptable number to bring a better ruler? I understand a certain number of lives are neccessary, but whats your magic number?

Ive advanced at least one plausible scenario wherein Dany lands and gets to use her dragons in defense of Westeros and I enjoy that one. So please dont paint me with a broad "Dany-hating, bloodshed fearing, anti-war brush (not that you have).

I like that "angry badgers" line by the way, made me chuckle. In real life people act funny when you bring foreign soldiers into their line lands. I dont know how Martin is going to play it out, but Ive been a lot of places as a US soldier (not that I am anymore) where people were supposed to accept us with open arms and some people didnt just see it that way. And the longer an occupational force stays the worse it gets. And yes thats me including real life in a book discussion, I will now go light myself on fire.

Then of course I ask the question why is Dany coming to Westeros? Is it to bring enlightment to the masses? Revenge? Regaining a lost crown? Bringing food? Personally I think its just like Roberts reason of kill them before the kill you. And then the question begs, whats gonna happen when she realizes theyre all dead. This is a wonderful moral dilemna that Martin has painted her into.

 

[Funky Cthulu]

Weirwood,

Im not being funny, Im not being sarcastic, Im not even being advesarial... I am just honestly confused.

Throwing popular acclaim out the window, you're saying Dany shows up with Dragons and everyone surrenders because its the wise thing to do. I think I get that, but what if someone doesnt? Theres an implied "surrender or die" in showing up with an army and three dragons on the shores of a country. What does Dany do at that point? There are some people who can not surrender....just cant, because to do so means death anyhow. Really what about them? How many lives lost is an acceptable number to bring a better ruler? I understand a certain number of lives are neccessary, but whats your magic number?

Ive advanced at least one plausible scenario wherein Dany lands and gets to use her dragons in defense of Westeros and I enjoy that one. So please dont paint me with a broad "Dany-hating, bloodshed fearing, anti-war brush (not that you have).

I like that "angry badgers" line by the way, made me chuckle. In real life people act funny when you bring foreign soldiers into their line lands. I dont know how Martin is going to play it out, but Ive been a lot of places as a US soldier (not that I am anymore) where people were supposed to accept us with open arms and some people didnt just see it that way. And the longer an occupational force stays the worse it gets. And yes thats me including real life in a book discussion, I will now go light myself on fire.

Then of course I ask the question why is Dany coming to Westeros? Is it to bring enlightment to the masses? Revenge? Regaining a lost crown? Bringing food? Personally I think its just like Roberts reason of kill them before the kill you. And then the question begs, whats gonna happen when she realizes theyre all dead. This is a wonderful moral dilemna that Martin has painted her into.

My feelings on it, as I sort of said earlier, is that if Dany was planning to invade whilst Robert was on the throne, it would have been wrong. However, GRRM has cleverly pointed out the horrors of war but also made it clear that the Lannisters are making such a terrible mess of it all currently that Dany is the best possible option.
I think if Stannis broke free of Mel, he could stand to take over with less bloodshed and be a capable ruler, but I doubt that will happen - he's sworn oaths to her and he won't go back on those.
But once again, Weirwood and Aegon, what is going to be best for the kingdom LONG TERM? Can the Lannisters or Stannis plan well enough to feed everyone, fight the others, contain the sparrows and quell the bandits on the roads? I don't think so. I can't stand Dany's belief that her kingdom was 'robbed from her' but events have unfolded so that she may be the best option there is.
Personally, I think she'll arrive when the kingdom is on its knees to the Others and if she survives destroying them, the residents will see that the Lannisters atleast did nothing to protect them and happily welcome the dragon queen.
I do feel for Stannis though - I just have this feeling nothing good is in his future.

 

[Boaz]

I think if Stannis broke free of Mel, he could stand to take over with less bloodshed and be a capable ruler, but I doubt that will happen - he's sworn oaths to her and he won't go back on those.

Can Stannis break free? If he figures out that she is evil and through her evil actions has commited murder and treason, then he can legally not fulfill his oaths. But Stannis seems pretty far gone. I feel he's blinded himself to Melissandre's faults. His willingness to take baby steps into evil show this. He allows Mel to hypnotize him and, viola, Renly dies. Again with the deep sleep and Ser Cortnay Penrose dies. Then burning the Seven reveals Lightbringer. Next, bleeding Edric removes Robb and Balon. Finally, Stannis is ready to murder Edric Storm. He's pretty much tied to Mel, imo. Stannis used to be about right and wrong, but now he's about the end justifying the means. Well, thinking of Stannis, makes me think of justice...

The title of the thread gives us two options, Mercy or Vengeance... but what about Justice. Does imposing the death penalty on murderous traitors mean vengeance? Can their be Forgiveness for the Freys? Are they redeemable? Jaime strives for redemption, Victarion wants revenge, Sandor wants peace of mind, Cersei lusts for control, Arya trains for vengeance, Brienne wants mercy of the Stark girls, Stannis breathes justice for all (while thinking he's above the law)...

 

[the smiling weirwood]

Does Dany want revenge? All she ever thinks about is finding her home....

 

[Boaz]

I agree, "Home" is what drives her.

Home to her is a peaceful childhood at the house with the red door. She wishes she had loving parents and protective brothers. It is a longing for an illusion... a time long past realizing.

She has bought into Viserys' vision of home... King's Landing. Home, for her, is becoming a birthright. Westeros is her possession.

But I still feel, at her core being, home is sanctuary to play in peace.

 

[the smiling weirwood]

I think she sees conquering Westoros as the easiest way to find home. After all, it was her family's home.

On a more pracical note, if she wasn't planning to conquer Westoros how would she survive? The Dothraki want to take her to the Dosh Khaleen, a ton of Qartheen assassins are after her, she has no skills except dragon hatching, and no where to call home. I think she's just looking for security, which for her just happens to involve a huge army and three dragons.