The Revived Tolkien Trivia

[Grimward]

*Grins*

Are you answering, sir, or fishing? I am at your disposal on either account, of course, with said clarification...

Re Star Wars and Tolkien, I like both, but they don't mix well, so you can reasonably rule out that possibility where the "new hope" is concerned.

 

[farntfar]

Well I suppose I was fishing, rather ineffectually, but never mind.

I'm now tending towards the battle of the five armies having 5 sires, namely Thorin, Bard, Thranduil, Bolg and I suppose the chief warg (as the wargs were one of the said armies)
Only Bard and Thranduil came out alive.
The new hope would be the arrival of Beorn, who could also have covered much ground I suppose, but I'm not sure about that bit.

 

[Grimward]

I'd have to disagree, but with the "ineffectually" part.

Cast your line a little deeper into your first fishing hole...

 

[Boaz]

Farntfar, I think you're right... Sometimes we goes off sneakin after lovely fishes precious....

Arathorn II named his son Aragorn II, but Gilraen called him Estel, i.e. Hope. He served Thengel and Ecthelion as Thorongil (Eagle of the Star). Later, he was known through Breeland as Strider. Upon his arrival in Mina's Tirih, the locals called him Elfstone. So his five names are Aragorn, Estel, Thorongil, Strider, and Elfstone. But upon his coronation his regnant name was Elessar Telcontar... high elven for Elfstone Stider.

On a side note, Samwise once called him Longshanks and Eomer called him Wingfoot.

If this is wrong I have another answer with Aragorn at the center.

 

[Grimward]

That's not a bad bit of stitchery, Boaz sir, but alas, not what I'm looking for. You are correct about Far being right (as opposed to being far right, which would not be within my purview to comment upon), but not for the answer you're referring to...

Far, I didn't mean to lead you out on a limb when the correct branch was at hand...;-)

 

[farntfar]

You're clearly pointing me back to the tree, Grim.
Aragorn found it in the snows above Minas Tirith when Gandalf suggested he look where all is barren and cold. So that gets you the unlikely place bit.
Aragorn had certainly covered much ground and his seeking had not been in vain.

But the sires.
This was a fruit of the white tree of Minas Arnor (or Tirith if you prefer),
which was a sapling of Nimloth the fair (the white tree of Numenor)
which was a seedling of Galathilion
and that a fruit of Telperion of many names, eldest of trees.

Have I missed one. (And Gandalf too, if it comes to that( the same reference in the Steward and the King)

I've got a feeling there was a bit of jiggerypokery with cuttings by the faithful in Numenor which might account for one.
But also TWO remain? One now in Rath Dinan. Ah! And Galathilion presumably in Valinor.
Still one sire short though.

More clues?

 

[Boaz]

My next answer is the reunited and reconstituted realms of Arnor and Gondor under the person of Elessar.

Numenor gave rise to Arnor and Gondor. Arnor birthed Arthrdain. Arthrdain continued through the Chieftains of the North... who ended with Aragorn II who restored both Arnor and Gondor.

 

[Grimward]

Bo, I wish I had two answers, as you've clearly searched (and found) parallels that could fit. Far has the right answer, though. Far, you have all of the deceased ancestors of Aragorn's sapling, and one of the live ones. The final live tree shares its name with an elvish lord, it could be considered an "uncle/aunt", depending on how you read the different lineage references, and you must look elsewhere for the jiggerypokery...

In full disclosure, I've not checked this against all of Lost Tales; there could be 10 other trees for all I know! These 5, however, all occur within the books we commonly use here.

 

[farntfar]

OK Grim, I'm confused again.
The original tree taken from Numenor was planted at Minas Ithil (as described in "of the rings of power and the third age, in the Simarillion. (I'd forgotten that)) and was destroyed when Sauron took that tower and converted it to Minas Morgul.
Isildur escaped with a seedling which was the one planted at Minas Anor and later laid to rest in Rath Dinen.
Which brings the count to 5. But not an uncle/aunt, and as far as I know unnammed.

Hold on.
There was Celeborn, that was a seedling of Galathilion, that was the sire of Nimloth, not direct from Galathilion to Nimloth. And delete Telperion who wasn't actually a sire except as a concept(depending on who you ask: Gandalf or Olorin)

So Galathilion, Celeborn, Nimloth, The tree of Minas Ithil, The tree of Minas Anor and then junior in the snow. Le compte est bon. (still no giddy aunts.)

Am I right, sir?

 

[Boaz]

Grim, I read and reread The Lord of the Rings two dozen times between the ages of fourteen and twenty-four. I enjoy guessing.... the test of my ability to recall and to make connections.

 

[Grimward]

So Galathilion, Celeborn, Nimloth, The tree of Minas Ithil, The tree of Minas Anor and then junior in the snow. Le compte est bon. (still no giddy aunts.)

Am I right, sir?

Indeed you are, although we technically should be listing Telperion as the one that started it all, too (even if only the model for the "image" taken by Yavanna when she gave Galathilion to the Vanyar), and Tolkien doesn't help things by calling Nimloth a seedling of Celeborn in the Akallabeth after having called Nimloth a seedling of Galathilion in The Return of the King (hence my "uncle" reference where Celeborn was concerned, although "elder cousin" would have been more accurate there). As noted, it's clear that Gandalf DIDN'T read the Akallabeth.

But I digress. Well done, far, a scion of the eldest of bells to you, along with the floor.

And Bo, more power to you, sir. We are of one accord on that point!

 

[farntfar]

Thank you Grim. Yes. The family tree is a little confused.

See whether you can understand this little riddle, guys. (And gals.)

From the caves in the mountains I came to the caves by the river.
From caves in the wood to the green isle
I am renowned for my beauty, but more for conflict,
bringing death to the great among elves and men and dwarves alike.
Yet that which I bore has changed the shape of the world.

 

[Grimward]

Never thought I'd say this, but finding all of the quotes for this one is wearying, so I'm just going to list notables among those who found death. The answer of course is the Silmarils, particularly the Silmaril of Air:

From the caves in the mountains I came

...northward in Valinor they made a strong place and treasury in the hills, and there at Formenos a multitude of gems were laid in hoard, and weapons also, and the Silmarils were shut in a chamber of iron.

The Silmarillion, Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor

...to the caves by the river

Where the Esgalduin flowed down, and parted Neldoreth from
Region,there rose in the midst of the forest a rocky hill, and the river ran at its feet. There
they made the gates of the hall of Thingol, and they built a bridge of stone over the river, by which alone
the gates could be entered. Beyond the gates wide passages ran down to high halls and chambers far below that were
hewn in the living stone, so many and so great that that dwelling was named Menegroth, the Thousand Caves.

The Silmarillion, Of the Sindar

But when Hurin was gone from Menegroth, Thingol sat long in silence, gazing upon the great treasure that
lay upon his knees; and it came into his mind that it should be remade, and in it should be set the Silmaril.

The Silmarillion, Of the Ruin of Doriath

From the caves in the wood to the green isle...

...and they passed beyond the River Gelion into Ossiriand, and dwelt there in Tol Galen the green isle...

The Silmarillion, Of the Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad

...but Beren took the Nauglamir and returned to Tol Galen.

The Silmarillion, Of the Ruin of Doriath

I am renowned for my beauty but more for conflict...

And the inner fire of the Silmarils Feanor made of the blended
light of the trees of Valinor...
...For Feanor began to love the Silmarils with a greedy love, and grudged the sight of them to all save
to his father and his seven sons; he seldom remembered now that the light within them was not his own.

The Silmarillion, Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor

bringing death to the great among elves and men and dwarves alike...

Elves (notably Feanor and sons, Fingolfin and sons, Thingol)
Men (notably Beren)
Dwarves (notably The Lord of Norgrod)

Yet that which I bore has changed the shape of the world

...and Mandos foretold that the fates of Arda, earth, sea, and air, lay locked within them.

The Silmarillion, Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor

For so great was the fury of those adversaries that the northern regions of the western world were rent asunder, and the sea roared in
through many chasms, and there was confusion and great noise; and rivers perished or found new paths, and the valleys were upheaved and the hills
trod down, and Sirion was no more.

The Silmarillion, Of the Voyage of Earendil

 

[farntfar]

Ah Grim.
I reallly should give it to you even though it's not what I was looking for.
You have it all but one element (which you point to one of your quotes) and all the right references except for the first.
Ah, and the first caves (by the river) were not the same as the second caves (which you got). So maybe you could come up with that.

Unfortunately the Silmaril (the right one incidentally) at no time bore itself.

It would be churlish for anyone else to jump in at this point I think, but maybe, Grim, you'd like to complete it.

EDIT: Oh. and I might have added another principal man.

 

[Grimward]

I struggled with which caves to put Menegroth under, ultimately deciding that they could be both (economical, but wrong, eh? ).

I will give it some more thought, but I'm okay with someone else fitting the final piece or two in and claiming the bell if they have it.

 

[farntfar]

Oh, Spit! No.
I misled you.
The first and second caves are wrong, and only the third caves are Menegroth.

so:
From the caves in the mountains I came to the caves by the river.
Neither of these caves are Fornost or Menegroth, and they are 2 different sets of caves.


Sorry to put you to all this bother Grim.

 

[Grimward]

No worries, and no bother at all. I meant that I thought that Menegroth could be either 2nd or 3rd caves, and was hoping for BOTH (and understood that Formenos as the first was wrong). Still cogitating.

 

[farntfar]

So it's not the Silmaril but it bore the Silmaril.
The first caves are in the other direction. And you've already mentioned it in one of your quotes..

 

[Grimward]

*Grins*

Aye, and I've been locked into thinking that it had to have borne the Silmaril in ALL of those places, but that's not what you said. Duh.

The Nauglamir it is, then:

...I came to the caves by the river...

Thus Finrod came to the Caverns of Narog, and began to establish there deep halls and armouries after the fashion of the mansions of Menegroth and that stronghold was called Nargothrond.

The Silmarillion, Of the Return of the Noldor

In that labor Finrod was aided by the dwarves of the Blue Mountains, where Belegost and Norgrod would qualify as cities in caves in the mountains, but Finrod rewarded them with treasures from Tirion, of which the dwarves fashioned the Nauglamir; there's no mention of caves in the Calacirya, much less Finrod living in them before the flight of the Noldor. And the Silmaril of Air resided in Morgoth's crown in Angband, under the peaks of the Thangorodrim, but never (that I've seen) departed Angband for Nargothrond. I think you've got me with the caves under the mountains. There aren't that many things that have borne a silmaril (Morgoth's crown, Beren's hand inside Carcharoth's stomach, and the Nauglamir on several brows)...

 

[farntfar]

The caves under the mountain was a bit of a stretch in that I was speaking of Nogrod as you say where the dwarves made the Nauglamir, and it's never explicitly described as caves.

"And southward was delved Tumunzahar, by the Elves names Nogrod, the Hollowbold." Of the Sindar (page 1)
Delved implies caves to me but I was pushing it, and knew it. (I very nearly apologised up front, but didn't think it was a worse assumption than some we've seen before)

(Oh yes. And the bit about it only bearing the Silmaril at the end was sneaky too. )

So caves 1 = Nogrod. Caves 2 = Nargothrond, Caves 3 = Doriath.
And the rest, as they say, is fantasy.

Well searched Grim. I apologise for all the work I've given you.

A work hardened potholing bell for you, and the next question.