The Revived Tolkien Trivia

[farntfar]

I've a feeling it's Earendil in a song, but that's in a book that's not in the list (Tom Bombadil and other love songs?),
so it must be Beren in the Lay of Beren and Luthien as sung at Imladris in Many Meetings.
I'm away from any reference material at the moment.
It also seems to me that:
He came upon a Night of Naught
rather than to.
But I also seem to mix it up with the jabberwock somehow. (A similar metric structure perhaps.)

 

[Grimward]

You are correct, sir, although in the book that is in the list (ie, The Fellowship of the Ring, Book II, Chapter 1, Many Meetings) Bilbo sang that Earendil did come to the Night of Naught. Wouldn't surprise me in the least if it's different elsewhere, but when it comes to checking I'm going to plead laziness.

A Naughty Night Bell to you, and the floor for a challenge, far.

 

[farntfar]

Ah! Thank you Grim. I'd forgotten it was Bilbo's song.

So still without my books, and hoping I remember correctly:
Who boned a bone?

Details/quotes would be gratefully received. (If only to prove to me that I remembered it correctly)

 

[farntfar]

No one seems to be biting so I'll mention that the owner of the bone is almost certainly fictional, even to the nominally halfwitted character who speaks of him.
If he is not fictional his apparent nephew would seem to have been the subject of a parthenogenetic birth.
(Loads of extra points if anyone can work out what all thats about. )

 

[farntfar]

My apologies. The parthenogenic birth theory does not bear scrutiny.
Points for why the speaker is halfwitted though.

 

[Boaz]

I know this I just have not been home to get the exact quote from my books.

 

[Grimward]

Alas, far, I fear we've left you with nary a response to adjudicate, so I'll toss my two cents in:

The Troll in Sam Gamgee's song, sung after Weathertop when Strider and the four hobbits happen across the statues of three Trolls Gandalf tricked some 80 years prior:

Tom's leg is game, since home he came,
And his bootless foot is lasting lame;
But Troll don't care, and he's still there
With the bone he boned from its owner.
Doner! Boner!
Troll's old seat is still the same,
And the bone he boned from its owner.

The Lord of the Rings, The Fellowship of the Ring, Book One, Chapter VII, Flight to the Ford

Presuming the reference is to the primary speaker in the song, Tom is half-witted because he thinks kicking a mountain troll in the posterior would actually be of consequence to the troll. While perhaps not the sharpest tool in the shed when it comes to managing mountain trolls, you could make the case that Tom would be quite the forensic scientist if he can recognize the shin of his uncle from merely gazing upon an old bone.

 

[Boaz]

Thanks for the reference Grimmy. I just don't have my books now to get the exact quote and chapter title...

On a side note, I found a copy of J.E.A. Tyler's The New Tolkien Companion (completely updated to include The Silmarillion) today for $7 US. The 1980 price was $5.95. I am now rearmed with the single greatest (more like the most cherished) reference book of my life. My first copy was in four pieces by 1984, but I did not throw it away until 2010.

 

[farntfar]

You are quite correct, Grim as to who boned a bone. It was the troll.

The bonus points relate to the halfwitted, and to the impossibility of the existence of the owner of the bone, or at least a conflict with other facts. (I assumed, maybe wrongly, that Tom in the song, was Bombadil).
The halfwitted is not Tom, but the singer, so Sam. And I want something very specific.

Congratulations though. You've won a rock hard bell and the next question.
But if you want, you can try for the other bits.
If not, just say so and I'll tell you what I thought.

 

[Grimward]

On a side note, I found a copy of J.E.A. Tyler's The New Tolkien Companion (completely updated to include The Silmarillion) today for $7 US. The 1980 price was $5.95. I am now rearmed with the single greatest (more like the most cherished) reference book of my life. My first copy was in four pieces by 1984, but I did not throw it away until 2010.

That's what I call a well-read book, Bo.

I wondered if you were talking about Sam, far. Never thought of him that way, but why don't we continue it? I'll presume it has nothing to do with being "nowt but a nincompoop" and chime back in later today. In the meanwhile, Bo or anyone else can steal the bell with the right answer, if that works for you?

 

[farntfar]

Not “Nowt but a nincompoop” I’m afraid, Grim, but you may think that Sam had been predisposed to think of himself that way from early on.
Remembering where I’ve shown interest before may help but it’s not easy to find.

The necessary non existence of Tom’s uncle Tim may be an elvish issue.

 

[Grimward]

And of course, the quote isn't "nincompoop" anyway, but "ninnyhammer" (definitely the only place in literature I've seen "ninnyhammer" used). Oddly enough, that little piece of clarity came to me while I was torturing myself at the gym (go figure). As far as the half-wit part goes, I'm still sorting this out, so it's fair game to all. ;-)

 

[farntfar]

Ninnyhammer indeed, Grim. I'd forgotten that too.

Would it help to know that his dad didn't get out much?

 

[farntfar]

Still nothing?
Sam's dad didn't get out much because he stayed at home.

Meanwhile the non-existence of Tim is implied by a certain elven speech.
Or at least half elven


Half an elf
Within himself
Is ipso facto
Half not elf

But half the elf
Is still an elf
it says so up on my bookshelf
D’you see.

But is the elf
Though ID stealth
Or just rude health
an entire elf

When half the elf is not an elf
due to his great grandma Hareth.
(Blimey! Struggling there. Get on to the bit where we’re...)
Singing:

hoo ho ho, hee hee he
Elrond the half an elf.
etc

 

[Boaz]

I thought the original question was about the bone and the half wit was just bonus...

Samwise Gamgee is the anglicized form of Banazir Galbasi, the westronized form of the old Hobbit Banazir Galabas. Galab means game. Bas means village. Ban means half. So Azir must mean wisdom or wise. This is all in the appendices to The Return of the King... which I don't currently have on me. The New Tolkien Companion says this information is in Appendix F, Section II. Thus Sam's name means half-wise, half-wit, or simpleton from the game-village or country. You could say the Gaffer named him "The Village Idiot."

 

[farntfar]

Quite right Boaz. The appendix F tells us that Samwise and Hamfast are JRRT's old English versions of Banuzir and Ranugad.
Sam wis meaning half wise and Ham fast meaning stay at home.
You're right also that the question was a bonus, with the main question being who boned a bone. But Grimm suggested that the question stayed open for that part too.
Who gets the bell and to ask the next question? Fight amongst yourselves.

The last bit about Tom Bombadil's uncle Tim, maybe we should drop.

 

[Boaz]

Post away, Grim.

 

[Grimward]

Very good, Bo. Personally, I think you solved the harder of the two parts, but if you insist...

What did Walter B. Gibson and J.R.R. Tolkien ALMOST have in common? Big time props for getting the quote on this one.

 

[farntfar]

Well I know nothing at all about Walter B. Gibson, and Wikipedia isn't going to help except to suggest it has something to do with the Shadow.

So I'll throw "The shadow of the past" (the chapter title) and "against the shadow in the east" (Strider to Barliman Butterbur) into the ring and then leave quietly.

 

[Grimward]

You're on the right path, far. And we've established that using the web for searches when Tolkien/his works are being compared with another non-Tolkien reference is perfectly acceptable if one is searching for that non-Tolkien reference. Just think bigger than a mere chapter...