The Revived Tolkien Trivia

[Grimward]

Grim, I'll accept Tuor. Your turn.

Was there someone else that met all of that?!

I almost went and quoted it anyway, but sanity (scarce as it may be within my cranium) won out.

This might be an easy chesnut...

Twice did they spar right out of the gate
Though years passed between, a one and an eight
Like father like son to engage in debate
Reckoned by family to a stalemate

Who are we, where are we, and why the tie?

As always, quotes appreciated, but not required!

 

[Boaz]

Was there someone else that met all of that?!

Yes. Maybe I'll save it to use later....

 

[paranoid marvin]

Was there someone else that met all of that?!

I almost went and quoted it anyway, but sanity (scarce as it may be within my cranium) won out.

This might be an easy chesnut...

Twice did they spar right out of the gate
Though years passed between, a one and an eight
Like father like son to engage in debate
Reckoned by family to a stalemate

Who are we, where are we, and why the tie?

As always, quotes appreciated, but not required!

I don't know the answer, but I do know that I love the question!

 

[Boaz]

This is Tolkien trivia, correct?

Hmmm... the one and eight years... is that nine or eighteen or eighty-one?

If it's eighty-one, that seems about right for the time between the Battle of the Five Armies and the easterlings siege of Erebor. Dain Ironfoot and Thorin Stonehelm, father and son, argued with steel against invaders. They were both victorious.

Twice did they spar right out of the gate - The Battle of the Five Armies and the easterlings siege of Erebor.
Though years passed between, a one and an eight - Eighty-one years, that seems about right for the time between.
Like father like son to engage in debate -Dain Ironfoot and Thorin Stonehelm, father and son, argued with steel against invaders.
Reckoned by family to a stalemate - They were both victorious.

 

[Grimward]

Yes. Maybe I'll save it to use later....

Ah...I forgot about the government angle for the person I THINK you were after, but I'm with you now, sir. And on that point I think you were generous with my answer.

Re my challenge, this is indeed Tolkien Trivia. Alas, while you are on the right track with 1 part, you have some of the riddle's other parts either reversed (in one case) or partially considered (in another). The answers lie far from Erebor.

 

[Boaz]

@Grimward Serving in government does not mean reigning. And I guess I meant it as a respected person who can influence decisions as well as make policy.

And my Dain and Thorin answer was not approved.... hmmm... let me think about the House of Finwe....

 

[Grimward]

Re government and reigning, I definitely understood. As noted, you were generous with my answer on that point.

And don't spend much time on the House of Finwe.

 

[Boaz]

Maybe you are speaking of the fallout between Fengel and Thengel. Fengel was a disagreeable person. Eighteen years seems about right for Thengel to spend in Gondor. But it does really seem right... and I don't know any specifics on their argument.

 

[Grimward]

Unfortunately not. The answers lie far from Edoras as well. I might suggest that more than 1 pair is involved?

 

[Boaz]

I think I have it... the key is in the number. It's eighteen, not nine nor eighty-one. The most accurate records of dates in Tolkien's works are in the Shire. Elves don't really care about years, but Hobbits do.

Twice did they spar right out of the gate - Frodo and the Sackville-Bagginses argued over Bilbo's inheritance. Again they quarreled over Frodo's sale of Bag End to them.
Though years passed between, a one and an eight - Frodo was thirty-three at the first unpleasantness and fifty-one at the second.
Like father like son to engage in debate - Otho S-B was the instigator the first time. His son, Lotho, was there as the nominal head of the S-Bs the second time. Although it must be said that Lobelia was a pill both times.
Reckoned by family to a stalemate - After Shakey's defeat, Lobelia was released from imprisonment. She got very emotional upon learning of Lotho's murder and of discovering her popularity for standing up to the ruffians. She retired from public life and moved back to Hardbottle with her father's family. When she died, Frodo was astonished to find she left him all her money to use to assist Hobbits made homeless by Sharkey's shemes.

 

[Grimward]

You're on the right trail, and in the right place. Not quite there yet, though. And I may have rounded up, numerically.

 

[Boaz]

Frodo tells Hob Hayward upon arrival at the Buckland Gate, "But it is evidently high time the family dealt with him and put him in his place."

Or are you looking for the arguments between the Gaffer and Sandyman at The Ivy Bush, just before Bilbo's party... and the one between Sam and Ted Sandyman, seventeen and half years later at The Green Dragon?

I don't have any other ideas on the subject... pyan, farntfar, or harebrain will be along shortly to figure it out.

 

[Grimward]

Or are you looking for the arguments between the Gaffer and Sandyman at The Ivy Bush, just before Bilbo's party... and the one between Sam and Ted Sandyman, seventeen and half years later at The Green Dragon?

Nice job, Bo; Don't cede the field just yet!

One final piece of the puzzle as originally posted still outstanding from your reply, though...

 

[Boaz]

Twice did they spar right out of the gate - At The Ivy Bush and at The Green Dragon
Though years passed between, a one and an eight - Just before Bilbo's party and eighteen years later just before Frodo's move.
Like father like son to engage in debate - Gamgee Sr. v. Sandyman Sr. and Gamgee Jr. v. Sandyman Jr.
Reckoned by family to a stalemate - Sam insists his cousin Hal saw a walking elm where there aren't any elms. Ted says then he did not see one.

 

[Grimward]

Sam insists his cousin Hal saw a walking elm where there aren't any elms. Ted says then he did not see one.

Yes, in the "fathers" square-off, the Gaffer seemingly "won" the round (or at least seemed to capture more of the crowd at the Ivy Bush over Old Sandyman), while in the sons' match some 18 years later (rounding saved the rhyme; who says words and numbers don't mix?!), Ted seemed to have scored the closing point (and crowd) over Sam at the Green Dragon. House Gamgee 1, House Sandyman 1. A tie, or stalemate. Both of these debates occurred in the first 2-3 pages of the first 2 chapters of Book One of the first Volume of the Lord of the Rings Trilogy, hence "right out of the gate. The symmetry in Tolkien's plots is often a joy to behold, and this sequence is one of my favorites. A theatrical (happy/sad mask) bell inscribed with the smiling faces of the Gamgees and sour faces of the Sandymans to you, sir, along with the privilege of the next challenge.

 

[paranoid marvin]

Twice did they spar right out of the gate - At The Ivy Bush and at The Green Dragon
Though years passed between, a one and an eight - Just before Bilbo's party and eighteen years later just before Frodo's move.
Like father like son to engage in debate - Gamgee Sr. v. Sandyman Sr. and Gamgee Jr. v. Sandyman Jr.
Reckoned by family to a stalemate - Sam insists his cousin Hal saw a walking elm where there aren't any elms. Ted says then he did not see one.

Well played sir!

This last passage has just left me with a thought. I wonder if the creature he saw 'as big as an elm tree' where there were no trees, and 'walking seven yards to a stride' was maybe - just maybe - an Entwife?

 

[paranoid marvin]

Yes, in the "fathers" square-off, the Gaffer seemingly "won" the round (or at least seemed to capture more of the crowd at the Ivy Bush over Old Sandyman), while in the sons' match some 18 years later (rounding saved the rhyme; who says words and numbers don't mix?!), Ted seemed to have scored the closing point (and crowd) over Sam at the Green Dragon. House Gamgee 1, House Sandyman 1. A tie, or stalemate. Both of these debates occurred in the first 2-3 pages of the first 2 chapters of Book One of the first Volume of the Lord of the Rings Trilogy, hence "right out of the gate. The symmetry in Tolkien's plots is often a joy to behold, and this sequence is one of my favorites. A theatrical (happy/sad mask) bell inscribed with the smiling faces of the Gamgees and sour faces of the Sandymans to you, sir, along with the privilege of the next challenge.

Yes, I didn't appreciate that, but (now you point it out) beautiful symmetry indeed.

 

[Boaz]

@Grimward Thanks for letting me work it out. I really enjoy piecing the puzzle together when I don't know it immediately.

Let's try this one again. I don't want to know the parents, the powers, the blades, the shirts, the guides, the cousins, the evils, the companions, the Eagles, the governments, the quests, nor the heirs. I want to know the people to whom each line applies.

I was an orphan.
I was seemingly chosen by supernatural powers of Arda for a mission.
I was given a special blade.
I was given a special chainmail shirt.
I had a guide to lead me by hidden paths and a tunnel.
While on my quest, my path diverged from my cousin's.
I watched in horror as my companion battled an ancient evil and fell to his doom.
The great Eagles are mentioned in my story.
After the quest, I served in government.
My heir was highly praised.
Finally, I sailed west.
The tradition is that I arrived in Valinor.
Who are we?

 

[Pyan]

This last passage has just left me with a thought. I wonder if the creature he saw 'as big as an elm tree' where there were no trees, and 'walking seven yards to a stride' was maybe - just maybe - an Entwife?

It's a nice thought, but the evidence just doesn't fit together.
There's many problems, such as the length of time since the Ent-wives vanished - probably being destroyed with their gardens in the War of the Last Alliance (Second Age 3429 – 3441) when Sauron pursued a scorched earth policy and burned their land, about 3000 years before Hal saw his 'walking tree'.
And the seven yards to a stride doesn't hold up either. Treebeard took 70,000 ent-strides to cross Fangorn carrying Merry and Pippin - that's about 80 miles, which works out as a stride of just under 2 yards, a long way from the 7 yards report from Hal. And don't forget the ent-wives were smaller, more delicate trees, like rowans - these don't grow anywhere near the height of an elm tree.

 

[Boaz]

In my opinion, I like the thought that it was an ent looking for entwives.

At the Green Dragon, Sam speaks of sailing, elves, dragons, and elves. Sam did sail west. Sam did see ents. Sam did see elves. A dragon was the only one of his interests/wishes that failed to come true. I think his cousin Hal's surprise in seeing a walking tree led him to not accurately note the stride length.... and perhaps elm ents had an incredibly long stride.... perhaps "running" to stay out of sight of hobbits.