SPOILERS: Theory on Jon

[summeriris]

Lyanna left with Rhaegar without a word of explanation. Against the wishes of her house.

Result: her father and brother have no choice given their complete lack of information to find her and bring her back. They end up demanding her return from Aerys mayhaps helped by Robert Baratheon convinction that Rhaegar has assaulted their daughter.

Aerys the Mad feels offended by the fact House Stark walks into his keep and dares demand something from him. He lives up to his name. Who then proceeds to demand the deaths of a buckload of people.

Eddard who's father and brother just been unjustly murdered, who has no idea what exactly happened to Lyanna, where she is, and what her relation with rhaegar is, and whose own life is threatened by Aerys has no choice to call his banners. Together with Robert Baratheon (his best friend, and Lyanna bethrothed ) and Jon Arryn their somewhat stepfather they go to war. Note that unless i forgot about it, Houses Baratheon, Arryn and Stark did not call for their banners until after Aerys cooked and decreed.

Cause and Reaction has nothing to do with planning. It is what follows after a certain action has been taken. Did she know what was going to happen, did she plan for it, offcourse not. Can she be at the very least partly considered to be the very reason this all went down, (in hindsight) definitely Yes. Take Lyanna and the choice she made away, and all the following would not have happened. It has nothing to do with a dislike for women. It is because i judge both men and women to their own character. And Lyanna's character while no doubt intriguing, interesting, and at times admirable is far from perfect.

I never said she was used by Rhaegar, she made the choice for Rheagar herself knowing that he was married and so on. I daresay she had quite a will of her own. Which is why rhaegar fell in love with her, and choose the cheat on his wife. Fact is Lyanna is pivotal to the entire war that followed. She is the first and foremost reason the war took place. That is undeniable. To make light of her actions and her decisions is wrong. While every other person involved is not entirely without blame (though i don't think eddard had ever any choice). For instance Rheagar should not have cheated on his wife with a highborn lady like that who was at the time bethroted. Aerys should not have cooked and decreed. and so on. BUT she is most definitely not blameless.

As for why i do not condamn the fact that she was bethrothed to a man she did not like. I never said i was okay with that. But you have to keep in mind that the setting is medieval times, not modern day, and it was common for noble borns to be bethrothed at birth. Also she could have refused to marry Robert, i highly doubt her father would have put a sword to her neck if she had refused, without running away with Rheagar. There is that choice as well.

It is said that Arya takes after Lyanna. And like Arya, Lyanna does not think her action through. She does not consider the possible consequences before she takes action. And whilst this is natural for a willful child, it is not for a fullgrown adult. Especially considering the people involved.

Also i want to add that i have nothing against women, i'm all for women's and men's equality, but it need to be true equality. While a lot of work still need to be done for women to get the same treatment, and this work should get done, i've found that too often they are their own enemies, instead of fighting for overall equality, they as often as not are fighting for better treatment then men in certain areas. And that is not right either. Also i dislike the fact that whenever you take a critcial stance against a woman, people are quick to judge you. There is feminisme and then their is feminisme.

Lyanna left Rheagar? So that makes her to responsible for all the other actions taken by the men in the books?

It couldn't be that it was up to the men in the books, (assuming that you're hypothesis is correct) to sit down and try to figure out a plan of action to find this young girl and establish that she was indeed safe and not being held against her will? It is not the case that every man in this hypothesis in not going off half-cocked and over-reacting. Lyanna is to blame for her father's mistakes in handling the Mad King? Lyanna is too blame that the Mad King is indeed mad and murders her father and brother? Lyanna is to blame that Robert refuses to see that she does not love him and does not want to marry him? Lyanna is to blame that Rheager is unfaithful to his wife? Did she hold a knife to his throat and force him to be intimate with her?

I am very glad that you have nothing against women. I shudder to think what you're statements would be like if you did have something against women. I am not a great banger on the drum for women's rights, but I am great banger on the drum for Equal Rights for everyone regardless of gender and that IMO starts with respect.

 

[Koopa]

Lyanna left Rheagar? So that makes her to responsible for all the other actions taken by the men in the books?

It couldn't be that it was up to the men in the books, (assuming that you're hypothesis is correct) to sit down and try to figure out a plan of action to find this young girl and establish that she was indeed safe and not being held against her will? It is not the case that every man in this hypothesis in not going off half-cocked and over-reacting. Lyanna is to blame for her father's mistakes in handling the Mad King? Lyanna is too blame that the Mad King is indeed mad and murders her father and brother? Lyanna is to blame that Robert refuses to see that she does not love him and does not want to marry him? Lyanna is to blame that Rheager is unfaithful to his wife? Did she hold a knife to his throat and force him to be intimate with her?

I am very glad that you have nothing against women. I shudder to think what you're statements would be like if you did have something against women. I am not a great banger on the drum for women's rights, but I am great banger on the drum for Equal Rights for everyone regardless of gender and that IMO starts with respect.

you making it seem like i am biased against women is just a laughable farce. If you read my post you could have clearly noted i called Robert a drunken sot, Rhaegar half-insane, Aerys completle mad. Also (while not yet mentioned) Brandon was hotheaded and so on. i recognise that as well. I even said that some of lyanna's actions can be considered admirable. But every positive has it's negative. And Lyanna is no angel. To say that she is blameless is wrong.

In any case I'm going to stop arguing with you.
It's evident that you insist on making Lyanna out to be a complete innocent lamb who does not need to take any responsibility for her inresponsible actions. If anyone is biased here it's you. Unlike you i do believe EVERYONE involved is not without blame INCLUDING Lyanna. Indeed it was the very point i was trying to make in my initial post, that it's the characters are (almost) all grey. All are to blame.

And if i do come off feeling a bit sympathetic towards Robert baratheon, it is not because i'm against women, it is not because i think him the better man, it because out of those three he is the most pitiful.

 

[summeriris]

you making it seem like i am biased against women is just a laughable farce. If you read my post you could have clearly noted i called Robert a drunken sot, Rhaegar half-insane, Aerys completle mad. Also (while not yet mentioned) Brandon was hotheaded and so on. i recognise that as well. I even said that some of lyanna's actions can be considered admirable. But every positive has it's negative. And Lyanna is no angel. To say that she is blameless is wrong.

In any case I'm going to stop arguing with you.
It's evident that you insist on making Lyanna out to be a complete innocent lamb who does not need to take any responsibility for her inresponsible actions. If anyone is biased here it's you. Unlike you i do believe EVERYONE involved is not without blame INCLUDING Lyanna. Indeed it was the very point i was trying to make in my initial post, that it's the characters are (almost) all grey. All are to blame.

And if i do come off feeling a bit sympathetic towards Robert baratheon, it is not because i'm against women, it is not because i think him the better man, it because out of those three he is the most pitiful.

Well as we seem to be debating something that never occurs in the books in any way, it could be seen to be an exercise in futility. Your original post that I responded does however contain a certain viewpoint.

1) Robert is a drunk who loves Lyanna, and never accomplished anything because he lost her. He is not resposible for his actions in this scenario.
This is sort of contradicted in the books as he did indeed fight a rebellion and became king.

2) Rhaegar has a mental illness and is not responsible for his actions.
This is contradicted in the books as every character who speaks of Rhaeger apart from drunken Robert, speaks of him as a good and courageous man.

3) Lyanna ran away with a married man and deserted the man she was bethrothed to. She seems to be the only one in your hypothysis who is capable of independant action.

So what your hypothysis amounts to is two weakminded men being twisted around by a conniving woman. IMO the books do not really bear this out.​

But let us not debate this anymore, with the greatest of respect I am happy to let your words speak about your feelings on misogyny in fandom.
​

 

[Koopa]

I said to myself i wouldn't reply anymore since your bias, and your laughable claims towards my feelings towards women are truly incredible. I swear how you could make out my criticism towards a certain character (more my criticism towards the general view of a certain character) into into that is almost breathtaking. And says more about your own twisted pre-occupied mind to see certain things then about my own views. And to think you actually had the audacity to claim that you don't think often about woman's right since it's all your mind seems filled with.

Its also astonishing how you are able to twist anothers writings to suit your own agenda.

Robert my writings :Robert is drunken old wenching sot who only ever wanted but ever failed to get Lyanna, couldn't be bothered with anything else, and therefore relatively harmless. His love for Lyanna is without question though.

Yours:Robert is a drunk who loves Lyanna, and never accomplished anything because he lost her. He is not resposible for his actions in this scenario.
This is sort of contradicted in the books as he did indeed fight a rebellion and became king.

Not contradicted: Robert only ever wanted Lyanna , it's his whole reason for fighting the rebellion. After he found out Lyanna was dead he led a nihilistic life. Caring in truth for little and less. + NOT EVEN ONCE did i make it out to be like he had no responsible for his own actions. I've been making it clear a gazillion times that ALL where NOT without blame. I repeat ALL. GET IT !!!!!!

Mine:Rhaegar is a half-insane cheat who's life was driven by his misinterpretation of some prophecy/vision. Sadly fated to be merely the one whose actions set into motion the song of ice and fire. His love for Lyanna partly driven by what he sees as his destiny.

Yours:Rhaegar has a mental illness and is not responsible for his actions.
This is contradicted in the books as every character who speaks of Rhaeger apart from drunken Robert, speaks of him as a good and courageous man.

It has been clearly shown that most of Rheagar actions where as a result of his belief in what he once read as a child. Which i why i called him half-insane. HALF-insane, not insane. Like i consider religious fanatics half-insane. All those who have spoken about rheagar have been mostly biased. With the exception of eddard who does not make a real judgement about him except to say that rheagar did not attend brothels. In any case it's only natural that as a reader you make you own verdict about a character. And while Rhaegar was no doubt chivalrous, and what not,he still cheated on his wife. Cheating in my book is not a good thing. But hey whatever floats your boat.

Mine: Lyanna ran away without a word ensuring the death of her father, brother and countless northmen (and others) in hindsight. Chose to romp with a married man (who no doubt promised her future fidelity -good one that) over an unmarried man who romped around before his marriage and may or may not have continued to do so throughout their marriage. She may not have been dealt any good hands, but she didn't do well with the cards she was given either.

Yours:Lyanna ran away with a married man and deserted the man she was bethrothed to. She seems to be the only one in your hypothysis who is capable of independant action.

Lyanna indeed ran away with a married man, in so doing she turned her back at the man she was bethothed too. i do no blame her for this. She did not like Robert as a prospective marriage partner. That said she should have handled the situation better. She could have chosen not to marry robert without running away with Rhaegar, she could have left with rhaegar after letting her feelings be know, she could have written a letter. instead she left without a word letting people to ponder. resulting in the starks trying to find their sister who had left for who-knows-what-reason. the starks did not know, which was the problem. And what make her actions among others so inresponsible. Did i ever make it out that she was the only one who could think for herself. And therefore the only one to blame: NO. I clearly said others where to blame as well. I said she was not innocent in the matter and not without blame. That she was no angel, and that despite positive things that she had her faults as well. Unlike what everyone is trying to maker out to be , some divine being. She was pivotal to the war. That cannot be denied. I've clearly pointed out her part to the war. That has nothing to do with being against woman with being against equality. It's with acknowledging the fact that her actions HAD an EFFECT. And that that EFFECT ultimately resulted in war (because of how other subsequentely reacted.) offcourse you can make the case that it started with Rhaegar wooing Lyanna and so on. But that does not nullify her actions.

And now i'm done.Now I'm really just gonna let you have fun twisting my words and making me out to be some woman-hater. I'm tired of this nonsense.

Btw, i find Brienne chapters boring. i still like her (character) though and am rooting for her.
I think Arya a killing little biatch but i can't wait to read more about her, and hope she gets a happy ending. i think lyanna has her moments like during the tourney that set her apart, but that does not mean she flawless. I love olenna, and how she is such a good player. I hate samwell tarly father, tyrion makes me laugh and i love his character but i'm not blind to his many flaws, i dislike a bunch of other male characters.
Liking a character or disliking a character does not stop me from discussing and critsizing their flaws. perhaps you should try and do the same.

 

[summeriris]

I said to myself i wouldn't reply anymore since your bias, and your laughable claims towards my feelings towards women are truly incredible. I swear how you could make out my criticism towards a certain character (more my criticism towards the general view of a certain character) into into that is almost breathtaking. And says more about your own twisted pre-occupied mind to see certain things then about my own views. And to think you actually had the audacity to claim that you don't think often about woman's right since it's all your mind seems filled with.

Its also astonishing how you are able to twist anothers writings to suit your own agenda.

Robert my writings :Robert is drunken old wenching sot who only ever wanted but ever failed to get Lyanna, couldn't be bothered with anything else, and therefore relatively harmless. His love for Lyanna is without question though.

Yours:Robert is a drunk who loves Lyanna, and never accomplished anything because he lost her. He is not resposible for his actions in this scenario.
This is sort of contradicted in the books as he did indeed fight a rebellion and became king.

Not contradicted: Robert only ever wanted Lyanna , it's his whole reason for fighting the rebellion. After he found out Lyanna was dead he led a nihilistic life. Caring in truth for little and less. + NOT EVEN ONCE did i make it out to be like he had no responsible for his own actions. I've been making it clear a gazillion times that ALL where NOT without blame. I repeat ALL. GET IT !!!!!!

Mine:Rhaegar is a half-insane cheat who's life was driven by his misinterpretation of some prophecy/vision. Sadly fated to be merely the one whose actions set into motion the song of ice and fire. His love for Lyanna partly driven by what he sees as his destiny.

Yours:Rhaegar has a mental illness and is not responsible for his actions.
This is contradicted in the books as every character who speaks of Rhaeger apart from drunken Robert, speaks of him as a good and courageous man.

It has been clearly shown that most of Rheagar actions where as a result of his belief in what he once read as a child. Which i why i called him half-insane. HALF-insane, not insane. Like i consider religious fanatics half-insane. All those who have spoken about rheagar have been mostly biased. With the exception of eddard who does not make a real judgement about him except to say that rheagar did not attend brothels. In any case it's only natural that as a reader you make you own verdict about a character. And while Rhaegar was no doubt chivalrous, and what not,he still cheated on his wife. Cheating in my book is not a good thing. But hey whatever floats your boat.

Mine: Lyanna ran away without a word ensuring the death of her father, brother and countless northmen (and others) in hindsight. Chose to romp with a married man (who no doubt promised her future fidelity -good one that) over an unmarried man who romped around before his marriage and may or may not have continued to do so throughout their marriage. She may not have been dealt any good hands, but she didn't do well with the cards she was given either.

Yours:Lyanna ran away with a married man and deserted the man she was bethrothed to. She seems to be the only one in your hypothysis who is capable of independant action.

Lyanna indeed ran away with a married man, in so doing she turned her back at the man she was bethothed too. i do no blame her for this. She did not like Robert as a prospective marriage partner. That said she should have handled the situation better. She could have chosen not to marry robert without running away with Rhaegar, she could have left with rhaegar after letting her feelings be know, she could have written a letter. instead she left without a word letting people to ponder. resulting in the starks trying to find their sister who had left for who-knows-what-reason. the starks did not know, which was the problem. And what make her actions among others so inresponsible. Did i ever make it out that she was the only one who could think for herself. And therefore the only one to blame: NO. I clearly said others where to blame as well. I said she was not innocent in the matter and not without blame. That she was no angel, and that despite positive things that she had her faults as well. Unlike what everyone is trying to maker out to be , some divine being. She was pivotal to the war. That cannot be denied. I've clearly pointed out her part to the war. That has nothing to do with being against woman with being against equality. It's with acknowledging the fact that her actions HAD an EFFECT. And that that EFFECT ultimately resulted in war (because of how other subsequentely reacted.) offcourse you can make the case that it started with Rhaegar wooing Lyanna and so on. But that does not nullify her actions.

And now i'm done.Now I'm really just gonna let you have fun twisting my words and making me out to be some woman-hater. I'm tired of this nonsense.

Btw, i find Brienne chapters boring. i still like her (character) though and am rooting for her.
I think Arya a killing little biatch but i can't wait to read more about her, and hope she gets a happy ending. i think lyanna has her moments like during the tourney that set her apart, but that does not mean she flawless. I love olenna, and how she is such a good player. I hate samwell tarly father, tyrion makes me laugh and i love his character but i'm not blind to his many flaws, i dislike a bunch of other male characters.
Liking a character or disliking a character does not stop me from discussing and critsizing their flaws. perhaps you should try and do the same.

I am still willing to let your words speak for you. You say it so much better than I can. I am impressed with your ability to take criticism as well.

 

[xLORDSNOWx]

I hate Cersie!

 

[summeriris]

I hate Cersie!

She is a very strong character who does many things worthy of hate. Do you hate her deeds or do you simply dislike the character?

 

[xLORDSNOWx]

She is a very strong character who does many things worthy of hate. Do you hate her deeds or do you simply dislike the character?

Truly my post was just poking fun at the topic.

I hate Cersie mostly because she squeezed Tyrion's pecker when he was a helpless little baby in the crib. (This was the icing on the cake for me) But also how she abuses her power, mixed with her having a narrow perspective and understanding of the realms actual needs, the people she surrounds herself with, and the dangers in the world itself. A true Ruler should think Realm before family. Cersie and many others are glory hounds.

With that being said, i really cant think of anyone who would be a perfect King or Queen in Westeros. The beauty of this series is that there are a lot of multi dimensional characters who do good/bad and right/wrong depending on the situation. I started off hating Jaime, but now in AFFC, i would go as far as to say that he would be one of the better ruling Kings out of alot of people still living in Westeros.

 

[summeriris]

Truly my post was just poking fun at the topic.

I hate Cersie mostly because she squeezed Tyrion's pecker when he was a helpless little baby in the crib. (This was the icing on the cake for me) But also how she abuses her power, mixed with her having a narrow perspective and understanding of the realms actual needs, the people she surrounds herself with, and the dangers in the world itself. A true Ruler should think Realm before family. Cersie and many others are glory hounds.

With that being said, i really cant think of anyone who would be a perfect King or Queen in Westeros. The beauty of this series is that there are a lot of multi dimensional characters who do good/bad and right/wrong depending on the situation. I started off hating Jaime, but now in AFFC, i would go as far as to say that he would be one of the better ruling Kings out of alot of people still living in Westeros.

Very well put, nobody is perfect and everyone in the books has a flaw. I fear that we are somewhat off the topic though.

 

[redmeat]

I feel sorry for Kiwi. His statement that Lyanna's actions were an indirect cause of the war/rebellion (whether those actions were right or wrong, or whether others reactions to her actions were right or wrong is neither here nor there) that followed can't really be denied, yet somehow he's been made out to be a misogynist? lol wut?

 

[Boaz]

Okay, I just had a thought... yeah, it happens now and then... I've got a "new" theory on Jon's father.

I've just gone through the list of ALL Martin threads. I may have missed one or two, but I was looking for anything discussing Jon's father. These are the threads that seemed most promising and I searched every page of these threads for one word... Connington.

Everyone needs a conspiracy theory

Pure Speculation RE; A Song of Ice and Fire

RE: Spoilers: Theory on Jon

Jon's true name

Jon Snow ideas

"promise me, Ned" and "the value of Howland Reed"

SPOILERS: A New Theory on Jon

The Dragon Has Three Heads

Rhaegar?? For the sake of discussion

Crackpot Ashara Dayne theory - AFFC Spoilers

Who knows about Jon if R+L=J

Jon Connington

Jon Connington was Hand to Aerys II. He was Rhaegar's friend and confidante. He was exiled. He reportedly died as a penniless alchoholic in the Free Cities. What if he is Jon Snow's father?

Why is Jon Snow named Jon?

I always assumed that it was either the wish of his mother or Eddard Stark's tribute to his foster father, mentor, and brother in-law Jon Arryn. As a tribute, I found it strange that Eddard would honor a great man by putting his name on a *******. Even Cersei found that notion apalling. Would Eddard really flaunt his one smirch upon his honor by besmirching the honor of his friend? No. Eddard did honor his best friend and king, Robert, by naming his first true born son after him. I did think that Eddard would let people believe he named Jon after Lord Arryn in order to really strengthen the belief that Jon was his ******* in order to hide R+L=J from a vengeful King Robert.

Mayhaps Jon was named by his mother. If Wylla is his mother, mayhaps she named him at birth before Eddard showed back up to claim him. But if Lyanna is his mother, why would she name her son Jon? The Tower of the Hand says that there was a King Jon Stark who defeated raiders and built White Harbor. But that was a long time ago... it does not seem like a current family name for the Starks. It was mentioned in one of the above threads (my apologies for forgetting which one) that Jon may be short for Aejon... or Aegon. Mayhaps if R+L=J, then Rhaegar thought his second son would be TPTWP and wanted him to bear the name Aegon/Aejon. But I'm not sure that I buy that.

What if Lyanna named her son after his father? Both Connington and Lyanna were at court. Both had the respect of the Crown Prince. Mayhaps Connington was the mystery knight at Harrenhal... mayhaps, just like Rhaegar, he was also impressed by Lyanna's courage.

Connington was a powerful lord and Lyanna was a beautiful young woman. Whether it could have been an affair, elopement, or rape I don't know. Maybe this was the real reason that Connington was banished... Rhaegar and Aerys felt betrayed by Connington's relationship with Lyanna.

Mayhaps Rhaegar promised to take care of Connington's son in exchange for Connington raising Aegon.

The major setback to this idea are the number of Kingsguard sent to guard the unborn child of a disgraced exile during Robert's Rebellion.

Here's another idea... the other person named Jon in King's Landing before Lyanna's disappearance was Jon Arryn. What if Arryn is Jon Snow's father?

Jon Arryn was actively seeking a young and fertile wife to provide him with an heir. An affair with Lyanna might have been a test to see if she was fertile with a hasty marriage to follow a conception. Wouldn't that be another reason for Arryn to call the banners when Lyanna disappeared? Wouldn't that put a different twist on the words, "The seed is strong"?

The problems with JA+L=J is that Lyanna was already betrothed to Arryn's foster son, Robert, that not calling the banners would have been a way to cover up his mess with Lyanna, and that it was Eddard and not Arryn that went to the Tower of Joy.

 

[TK-421]

Thank you Boaz for getting us back on topic. Nonesense.

Agree, always thought Jon Connington was key and we will meet Young Griff.

 

[LampreyPie]

Wow. I have seen a lot of out-there theories on this thread. Aerys raping Lyanna? No offense, but I tend to think that the more complicated the theory, the less likely it is to be true. I'd like to put forth my preferred version of events, gathered from various forums, which I think comes across a bit simpler.

1) Some people have been trying to explain why honourable Rhaegar would pass over his own wife at the Tourney of Harrenhal and "cheat on" his wife with Lyanna Stark. One possible answer: he didn't. He married Lyanna, and likely with Elia's consent. It was common for Targs to practice polygamy along with incest (charming), obviously starting off with Aegon and his two sisters. Elia was unhealthy and probably not able to bear more children. Rhaegar loved Lyanna but was also probably trying to fulfill the prophecy of the Prince Who Was Promised by fathering a child off her.

2) Some people have also been coming up with explanations as to what the Kingsguard were doing at the Tower of Joy. It's simple if you accept premise #1. With Aerys, Rhaegar and baby Aegon dead, Jon was the King.

I think this theory is very plausible for a couple of reasons.

1) There's other explanations as to why the Kingsguard were there but they involve this that and the other person commanding them to do this that and the other thing. And I can't really believe that they would follow a command and abandon their first vow to protect the King, who if it's not Jon, would be Viserys. If it's Viserys, these three who took their duty very seriously would have skedaddled off to Dragonstone to protect him, not stayed at the Tower of Joy to protect Lyanna and/or Lyanna and some *******. Remember, it's quite clear they were still loyal to Aerys, even if Dayne probably was sympathetic to Rhaegar's plan to dethrone him. One of the KG said to Ned they would have killed Jaime for killing Aerys. They still see their duty as to Aerys or to whoever is next in line after his death.

Also one gets the impression from the Tower of Joy scene that these three men are confident they are doing their duty as Kingsguard, even when Ned tells them to go find Viserys and protect him. They are not breaking their oath to do something else--they are protecting their King just as they vowed. Baby King Jon.

And baby King Jon cannot be baby King Jon without Rhaegar and Lyanna marrying first.

2) From a narrative perspective, it seems to me that Jon's parentage makes him someone very important. Now, I'm not saying that bastards can't be important or can't be heroes in this story. They quite clearly can, and if his parentage had not been shrouded in secrecy over 5 books (and GRRM has basically said that the next book will begin the denouement of the story) I would not insist that his parentage is important. If the mystery had gone on for, say, 3 books instead of 5, I'd think it likely he was Rhaegar and Lyanna's *******. But the longer the mystery goes on, the bigger the bombshell has to be, and Jon being a trueborn son of Rhaegar and Lyanna is about the biggest bombshell I can think of.

(Of course, after the years of speculation about this and the amount of R+L=J devotees, the bigger bombshell might be that Ned fathered a ******* off some Dornish wetnurse while out at war. )

For those who say that the lowborn ******* orphan who is secretly the son of someone really important is cliche and un-Martin like...well, remember Young Griff? And how he's really the trueborn heir to the Targaryen throne? (And I do believe he is still *the* heir, not Jon, which reduces Jon's cliche factor somewhat.) Not only that, but we still have plenty of heroes of the story who don't fit the bill of the cliche prince or whathaveyou. Daenerys? Sure, she has important heritage, but she's a) female and b) was a very young girl sold off to marriage by her brother to forge an important alliance, and ended up building a giant slave army. Arya? Still highborn, but a daughter, a younger daughter, a not very pretty girl who becomes a badass assassin and is morally ambiguous at times. And of course Tyrion. Again highborn, but a third son, a dwarf, basically treated as lowborn scum.

 

[viZion]

First: Welcome, LampreyPie! Great first post. I'm a big believer in R+L=J but it never occurred to me that Rhaegar and Lyanna could have married. My explanation for the King's Guard being at the Tower of Joy has always been that Rhaegar ordered them there. They would have no reason not to obey him even though he wasn't technically the King at the time. However, your theory makes a bit more sense.

Second: I can't believe I missed the drama that occurred above. Or maybe I saw it when it happened and just ignored it. Too many tl;dr posts .

 

[Heartsbane]

Welcome LampreyPie...

I am also an ardent R+L=J believer but I have been of the opinion that Jon is/always been legitimate. I believe we were told in AGoT during TOJ flashback we get from Eddard.

From Wiki...

“I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them.
“We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered.
“Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell.
“When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”
“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”
“I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege,” Ned told them, and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them.”
“Our knees do not bend easily,” said Ser Arthur Dayne.
“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”
“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.
“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”
“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.
“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.
Ned’s wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.
“And now it begins,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.
“No,” Ned said with sadness in his voice. “Now it ends.”

I believe that when the LC of the Kingsgaurd (Ser Gerold Hightower) tells you Ser William Derry is a good man but not of the Kingsgaurd, he is saying Viserys is not the King. The King is here.
And then follow that up with "We took a vow". Which we have learned from Barriston Selmy is the vow to protect the King which comes before all else. So I believe that Jon is the legitimate son of Rhaegar and Lyanna

Crackpot theory coming...
However I disagree that "Aegon" is The Heir. I believe "Aegon" is a descendant of Maelys the Monstrous, through the female line as we all know the male line ended with Maelys, and is the son of Illyrio and Serra. Which would make him a mummers dragon and fulfill that prophecy. I believe also Varys is somehow related to Serra, which would finally give some reason as to why Verys is doing all of these things.

 

[Eulalia]

Heartsbane, I think that you may be right on all counts. My crackpot addendum is that Varys may be Serra's brother and that would account for his interest, as well as his being a buddy of Illyrio.

 

[Boaz]

LampreyPie, Welcome! Of course I don't take offense at your disbelief of A+L=J... some days, I don't even believe it!

But the other thing I disbelieve is that Rhaegar eloped with Lyanna.

First, I assume that the marriage between Rhaegar and Elia was the social event of the decade. Would Doran (or his parents) have let a Princess of Dorne get married by a justice of the peace? Would Aerys II have let the Crown Prince get married without his royal approval of the line of succession? I say "no" to both.

Second, if Rhaegar's first marriage was so public, why would his second be less so? By the accounts of Barristan and Aemon, Rhaegar was not a fool. He weighed his options and the fallout of all his actions. Secretly marrying the daughter of a great lord would have been a political nightmare... not to mention the insult to House Baratheon.

If the Prince of Dorne's honor demanded a gaudy wedding, then the honor of the Lord of Winterfell demanded no less.

So, would Rhaegar have eloped to avoid Robert and then hoped to have dealt with the repercussions later? Mayhaps. But after Brandon and his men were arrested... after all their fathers were arrested... and after all of them were murdered, including Lyanna's father and brother, don't you think that at some point Rhaegar would have said something?!?! Something like, "Father don't kill my father in-law! That's gonna stress out my bride. I require her to be in the proper state of mind to bear my heir." After Houses Baratheon, Arryn, Stark, and Tully rebelled... don't you think Rhaegar might have sent word to Eddard that they needed to make peace for Lyanna? When was Rhaegar going to set the record straight? "Hey, Robert... sorry for stealing your bride... uh, well, could you take your paws off that tavern wench long enough for me to apologize?" I think Aerys II, Rhaegar, Rickard, and Lyanna could have easily annulled the engagement between Robert and Lyanna. Secretly eloping creates many more and far dangerous problems than it solves. Ignoring Lord Rickard's wishes, plans, and honor would have been stupid.

Lyanna had the wolfsblood, as Eddard put it. She was impulsive. But she'd also reconciled herself to marrying Robert. She told Eddard something like, "Love is sweet, Ned. But it cannot change a person's nature." Crofter's daughters elope, princesses do not. They take paramours if they must, but they only marry for reasons of state.

I say the oly way they married was if Rhaegar got her pregnant and he married her during her pregnancy. And we'll find out that the messenger to bring the news to Aerys II, Elia, and Lord Rickard drowned in the God's Eye, captured by the Children of the Forest, or bribed by Varys. But I think that an unplanned pregnancy was even more reason to speed word to Rickard instead of retreating to the Tower of Joy.

Third, why were the Lord Commander, the White Bull, and the Sword of the Morning with Lyanna? To protect her from Robert? Robert's forces were north of the Trident while the Tower of Joy is in Dorne. Lyanna and her baby were in no danger from the rebels.

LampreyPie, you've argued persuasively about the unquestioned loyalty of the Kingsguard. They are sworn to defend the King... and his progeny. In R+L=J and A+L=J, Jon is a son or granson of Aerys II. Legitimate or illegitimate, he factors into the succession, especially if things go horribly wrong... which they did. But if Rhaegar defeated the rebels, would Lyanna and baby have been in danger before his return? Yes, from either Aerys II, Elia, or Dorne. Any of them might have seen Lyanna and her child as a threat. Who would Rhaegar have trusted to withstand a King, a Princess, or a Prince? Only the Kingsguard.

The KG were so close to Aerys II that they knew everything. They knew he raped his wife, Queen Rhaella. They knew his paranoia. They knew his unjust verdicts against Rickard and Brandon and their followers. They might have known (or guessed) of his plot to blow the inhabitants of King's Landing to Kingdom Come. These men might have had doubts about the King, but they fully trusted the Crown Prince.

The last words of Rhaegar to Jaime were that he was going to call a great council of lords and make some changes. Rhaegar needed to curb the insanity of Aerys II. Was there any proof of Aerys II raping Lyanna? Only the testimony of Lyanna and the proof of her baby.

I think it more likely that the KG were not there to protect Jon, but to preserve Lyanna from an attempt by Aerys II to cover his tracks.

Heartsbane, you wrote...

he is saying Viserys is not the King. The King is here

Did I skp the chapter where Rhaegar divorced Elia? Did Rhaegar change the line of succession in permanent records, yet fail to tell anyone about his recent marriage? Okay, so the three KG at ToJ knew the royal connections of Jon, but that does not mean they were ready to crown him over Viserys. You'd have to suppose that Rhaegar swore them to uphold Jon's claim over Aegon's and Rhaella's even though they were both alive when Rhaegar left ToJ. All the KG knew was to protect Lyanna until further orders arrive... from Rhaegar... or until Aerys II forced them to choose between King and Crown Prince.

Guys, I'm fully prepared to eat crow when GRRM finally reveals Jon's origins. But until then, A+L=J. Cacaw!

Go on... admit it to yourselves... deep in your hearts... it won't hurt... much.

Heartsbane and Eulalia, who is Serra? I don't remember that name at all. The Tow of the Hand only shows one Serra... and she's a Frey. Varys does not look like a ferret face to me.

 

[Heartsbane]

Serra is Illyrio's dead wife. She is said to have golden hair with streaks of silver and had blue eyes.

Now I believe R did not have to divorce Elia as there is history of the Targs taking multiple wives. Especially Aegon the Conqueror and his sister wives. I believe this is important because I believe that R feels connected to Aegon the Conqueror that is why he names his children after them.
We also know that R was deeply committed to prophesies, after being told TWTP would come from his family line. Also we see in Dany's visions in the House of the Undying "There must be one more," and "The dragon has three heads"
Now after Aegon was born R was told she can no longer give birth which puts R in a bad way. He needs another child to fulfill the prophesy.
This is where I believe Lyanna comes in; we know R finds her attractive from the Tourney at Harrenhall when he crowned her Queen of Love and Beauty. Remember L is young wild and maybe a little rebellious. I can see her running off with R not understanding what the consequences will be, He does know what the consequences will be but I believe he was more worried about the prophesy fulfillment.

Now on to the KG. This is where I believe the evidence is. The KG swear a vow to protect their King above all other actions. They may guard the King's relatives or bastards as Selmy tells us in ADWD, but their #1 priority is protecting the King. This is relevant when Ned is speaking to them outside of TOJ. When Ned tells them Jamie killed
Aerys and Ned asks where they were they say “Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.” So they know Aerys is dead and yet they still stay at TOJ. Then Ned tells them that Viserys has fled to Dragonstone with Ser William Derry and they say “Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.
“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”
Which tells me we know Visery is at Dragonstone but he is not the King.
And finally the LC of the KG, The White Bull says "We swore a vow". Which to me says my King is here and I am protecting him.
So one last thing. I think we need to remember who the KG were at the TOJ. 2 of the most highly thought of KG members (Hightower and Dayne), and to think they would break their vow is not something I am comfortable with.
This is what I have come to believe and I am sure I will be eating these words in a couple of years...hopefully not much longer than that

 

[Heartsbane]

Sorry forgot to add 1 thing

Rhaegar leaves the TOJ before the baby is born and he tells the KG to guard his family while he is gone. Then when the baby is born it is Jon, a boy who becomes the next in line when all others from Rhaegar's family are murdered thus making him King before Viserys.
And this would work because Arthur Dayne was the best man at the wedding

 

[Eulalia]

I wouldn't rule out A+L=J because I never know what is going to happen!

Okay, without looking at a book, Serra is Illyrio's (second?) wife who dies of the plague (so we are told). She does not have a ferret face and she is not a Frey but has silver gold hair (hmmm Blackfyre?)... Perhaps she really died giving birth though. Illyrio is strongly affected by her death, and doesn't he keep her hand or something morbid? Illyrio tells Tyrion about it. Just why are Illyrio and Varys so invested in Aegon?

Weddings, even with Kings, of around the time of inspiration were sometimes not state events. Edward IV secretly wed Elizabeth Woodville and got a lot of blowback. Henry VIII secretly wed (pregnant) Anne Boleyn(very unpopular). Henry's sister Princess Mary eloped with Charles Brandon (could not trust Henry not to saddle her with another very old king).

Targs were allowed, and even encouraged to be bigamists. How far would R&L go if they believed in love or a prophecy or L was pregnant? I would say they would have been nervous about the Dorne reaction. But the Kingsguard might well have been there to protect the heir as the child was born.