SPOILERS: Theory on Jon

[Syphon of Oor-Tael]

The Baratheon family was around before Aegon the Conqueror. The Baratheons were the Storm Kings. The first Storm King is a legendary figure at the same time as Bran the Builder. Bran assisted the first Storm King in building Storm's End in the face of angry gods.

The last Storm King was defeated by Aegon's ******* brother, Orys. With Aegon's blessing, Orys took the daughter of the last Storm King as his bride. Orys also took the Baratheon name, heraldry, lands and titles... except King. Since then, the Baratheons are the Lords of Storm's End... the primary house of the Stormlords.

There have been seventeen crowned Targaryen monarchs. Viserys and Dany would make eighteen and nineteen named Targaryen rulers of the Targ dynasty. But Dany is only the fourteenth generation from Aegon. Assuming that the Baratheons kept pace with the Targs, then Robert would be either the thirteenth or fourteenth generation from Orys.

The only other infusion of Targ blood into the Baratheon family came from Robert's father's mother, Princess Rhaelle. Her father was Aegon V... Robert's great-grandfather.

Personally, I don't think that Robert would forget date raping Lyanna.

If Robert is Jon's father, then Eddard was not hiding Jon from Robert's wrath, but from the Lannisters'. Tywin and Cersei would never have allowed Jon to live had they known this.

We know of two of Robert's sons, Gendry and Edric. Both are tall for their ages. The only other of his bastards to survive infancy is Mya... and I cannot recall her height. All three of them have black hair. Jon has brown hair. Jon is not tall. That does not prove anything, but it starts a pattern...

Why would Robert fume over Rhaegar raping Lyanna if he'd done the same?

Wouldn't it make more sense for Lyanna to make Eddard promise to hire a drunken septon and make Robert swear that he and Lyanna secretly wed before Lyanna's disappearance? Then Jon would have been legitimate. Robert could still have named Joffrey as heir while having a weapon against Lannister misbehavior.

I prefer my theory of Lyanna being raped by Aerys and then being rescued by Rhaegar. Lyanna was at court. Robert was in The Eyrie. Aerys was a sexual predator. Rhaegar was already married and an honorable man. This would make Jon Dany's elder half brother.

I dunno.

Edit: Of course, I see Aerys' bastards everywhere... Cersei, Jaime, Tyrion, and Jon. If you put those with Aerys' trueborn children, Rhaegar, Viserys, and Danaerys, you have seven. Two years ago I tried to figure out the entire story with a unified theory of everything... Aery's seven children were at the heart of the concept, but I could not make it work.

But if Robert had raped Lyanna, Jon would be in possession of Baratheon traits, and not look so much like his mother. It is known.

 

[redmeat]

Edit: Of course, I see Aerys' bastards everywhere... Cersei, Jaime, Tyrion, and Jon.

Please elaborate on this, or provide a link?

 

[Mesanna]

I prefer my theory of Lyanna being raped by Aerys and then being rescued by Rhaegar. Lyanna was at court. Robert was in The Eyrie. Aerys was a sexual predator. Rhaegar was already married and an honorable man. This would make Jon Dany's elder half brother.

Wow, I hadn't heard this theory before! Is there a thread on it somewhere?

Why wouldn't Lyanna tell Ned the truth on her deathbed? And surely there would be no reason for Ned not to tell Robert what really happened, if it were Aerys rather than Rhaegar who raped her. He was going to war with the Targs anyway; did it matter whether it was because of the actions of the father or the son? Yet all Robert's hatred was for Rhaegar.

 

[Trey Greyjoy]

The Baratheon family was around before Aegon the Conqueror. The Baratheons were the Storm Kings. The first Storm King is a legendary figure at the same time as Bran the Builder. Bran assisted the first Storm King in building Storm's End in the face of angry gods.

The last Storm King was defeated by Aegon's ******* brother, Orys. With Aegon's blessing, Orys took the daughter of the last Storm King as his bride. Orys also took the Baratheon name, heraldry, lands and titles... except King. Since then, the Baratheons are the Lords of Storm's End... the primary house of the Stormlords.

There have been seventeen crowned Targaryen monarchs. Viserys and Dany would make eighteen and nineteen named Targaryen rulers of the Targ dynasty. But Dany is only the fourteenth generation from Aegon. Assuming that the Baratheons kept pace with the Targs, then Robert would be either the thirteenth or fourteenth generation from Orys.

The only other infusion of Targ blood into the Baratheon family came from Robert's father's mother, Princess Rhaelle. Her father was Aegon V... Robert's great-grandfather.

Personally, I don't think that Robert would forget date raping Lyanna.

If Robert is Jon's father, then Eddard was not hiding Jon from Robert's wrath, but from the Lannisters'. Tywin and Cersei would never have allowed Jon to live had they known this.

We know of two of Robert's sons, Gendry and Edric. Both are tall for their ages. The only other of his bastards to survive infancy is Mya... and I cannot recall her height. All three of them have black hair. Jon has brown hair. Jon is not tall. That does not prove anything, but it starts a pattern...

Why would Robert fume over Rhaegar raping Lyanna if he'd done the same?

Wouldn't it make more sense for Lyanna to make Eddard promise to hire a drunken septon and make Robert swear that he and Lyanna secretly wed before Lyanna's disappearance? Then Jon would have been legitimate. Robert could still have named Joffrey as heir while having a weapon against Lannister misbehavior.

I prefer my theory of Lyanna being raped by Aerys and then being rescued by Rhaegar. Lyanna was at court. Robert was in The Eyrie. Aerys was a sexual predator. Rhaegar was already married and an honorable man. This would make Jon Dany's elder half brother.

I dunno.

Edit: Of course, I see Aerys' bastards everywhere... Cersei, Jaime, Tyrion, and Jon. If you put those with Aerys' trueborn children, Rhaegar, Viserys, and Daenerys, you have seven. Two years ago I tried to figure out the entire story with a unified theory of everything... Aery's seven children were at the heart of the concept, but I could not make it work.

Thats whats fun - everyone has their own theories!!

I was going by this: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Robert_Baratheon Which shows his grandmother as a Targ- sorry, I said Grandfather above.

I do think Aerys raping Lyanna is a better theory than R & L running off in love with each other. Ill have to ponder that one during the re-reads!!

As far as Robert forgetting, he has a rather easy way of justifying his actions to himself. I found it curious that he claimed Rhaegar raped her but when pushed by Eddard (I think) as to whether or not that was something Rhaegar would do, Robert admitted he wouldnt. I think he was misplacing his rage. Cersei didnt believe Robert forgot what he did to her, but pretended - and probably internally as well -that he didnt. People who do THAT much drinking and are as violent as Robert was are capable of doing anything then justifying it to themselves.

As far as the genetics go and how people look Im not sure how much credence I give them unless you are speaking about incest. Even if the "seed is strong" simply means Roberts traits are dominant. If he had fathered 4 children with Cersei, there is a 25% chance one of them would have been blonde. The fact ALL her children were blonde was the giveaway. Robert + Lyanna = who knows. I know there's magic and dragons and such in this world, but I think Mendelian genetics still apply. I know this is a source of contention because every time Ive written this or talked about it at conventions people just look at me funny and respond "the seed is strong".

 

[TK-421]

So, Brandon Stark as Jon's father?

 

[Needle]

Thats whats fun - everyone has their own theories!!


As far as the genetics go and how people look Im not sure how much credence I give them unless you are speaking about incest. Even if the "seed is strong" simply means Roberts traits are dominant. If he had fathered 4 children with Cersei, there is a 25% chance one of them would have been blonde. The fact ALL her children were blonde was the giveaway. Robert + Lyanna = who knows. I know there's magic and dragons and such in this world, but I think Mendelian genetics still apply. I know this is a source of contention because every time Ive written this or talked about it at conventions people just look at me funny and respond "the seed is strong".

I'm sure I said this before but if you use actual genetics, there would probably not be a 1 in 4 chance of blonde. Black is dominate. Blond requires 2 recessive genes. If Robert did not carry a recessive ( and all his bastards say he does not) then no blond, ever.

 

[xLORDSNOWx]

So, Brandon Stark as Jon's father?

TK, i think you're missing the point. What they are trying to say is Tywin Lannister is Jon's father due to him raping Lyanna Stark. This was done to get back at The Mad King for turning down the Cersie/Rhaegar betrothal. Either this, or I am starting to believe that their was some kind of massive orgy in which no one can really prove who did what. Young Littlefinger arranged the smutfest in his first taste of managing the whoring aspect of his future to become. It is known!

 

[Boaz]

Trey, my apologies for not being clearer. Robert's grandmother was a Targaryen. Her father was King Aegon V.

As for Aerys + Lyanna = Jon, I first proposed this in a lengthy post on Page 12 of this thread.

You can also find info in Why say Tyrion's a Targ?

 

[redmeat]

TK, i think you're missing the point. What they are trying to say is Tywin Lannister is Jon's father due to him raping Lyanna Stark. This was done to get back at The Mad King for turning down the Cersie/Rhaegar betrothal. Either this, or I am starting to believe that their was some kind of massive orgy in which no one can really prove who did what. Young Littlefinger arranged the smutfest in his first taste of managing the whoring aspect of his future to become. It is known!

wtf? lol

 

[Syphon of Oor-Tael]

Trey, my apologies for not being clearer. Robert's grandmother was a Targaryen. Her father was King Aegon V.

As for Aerys + Lyanna = Jon, I first proposed this in a lengthy post on Page 12 of this thread.

You can also find info in Why say Tyrion's a Targ?

Boaz, I have to say that I am impressed by the line of reasoning for your post of Aerys raping Lyanna with Rhaegar stepping in, with the whole Tower of Joy debacle turning out in the worst way possible.

It is logical that Rhaegar would come to the defense of `his´ queen of beauty. In the end, Rickard and Brandon held Rhaegar responsible but the Mad King cannot be disputed to have done something mad again....

However, there are some reservations I have about Tyrion being a Targ, come to think of it. Suppose Tywin had some doubts about Tyrion´s real lineage. She was the Hand´s wife, so she would be in King´s Landing, that part I´m not disputing. What bothers me is the fact that it seems unlike Tywin to do something like he did with the trickery at the gates. Rather, I think that he would rather crush the life out of Aerys himself.

Also, if Tywin raped Lyanna, then Jon would look like a Lannister since Lannister genes are stronger than the other genes. Look at the Stark children, for instance. No, I'm not buying that part. I'd rather believe Stark genes overwriting Targaryen genes...

 

[Boaz]

Sy, I do not recall ever claiming Tywin raped anyone, let alone Lyanna. Mayhaps you meant Aerys instead of Tywin?

I agree that Jon's overwhelming Stark appearance is problematic to the idea of a Targ father. Mayhaps that is why the concept of Rickard, Brandon, Eddard, or Benjen fathering Jon continually rears it's ugly head.

I do not claim to have a shred of evidence or even any substantial clues as to Caersei, Jaeme, and Tyraen Targaryen. It's a crackpot theory. It's a way to pass the time between books.

 

[xLORDSNOWx]

Sorry guys, the whole Tywin + Lyanna = Jon was me putting a monkey wrench in a pile of monkey wrenches. That blame goes to me and the crack infested rant previously posted. We only have a month to go so i wanted to get my crackpot theories out of the way before all of our theories good/bad are null and void or proven true once ADWD is released.

I can't wait to see the crackpot theories once ADWD is complete. Everyone will be saying Littlefinger is Jon's father.

 

[Eulalia]

You mean Littlefinger isn't Jon's father?!

 

[Trey Greyjoy]

I'm sure I said this before but if you use actual genetics, there would probably not be a 1 in 4 chance of blonde. Black is dominate. Blond requires 2 recessive genes. If Robert did not carry a recessive ( and all his bastards say he does not) then no blond, ever.

Thats true! I gave a bad example earlier - effects of weaning myself off caffeine. Still - since his family hasnt been inbreeding, the chances of him not having recessive traits lurking around in the pool is pretty low.

 

[Eulalia]

I don't know about Robert's seed in GRRM's world. But I thought hair colour had multiple alleles involved! Jon Snow's hair in the TV series is pretty dark. (darker than Mark Addy's)

If anyone in the books could rape someone roaring drunk and forget about it, it could be Robert. We have evidence for that. Actually, him having such unshakeable sentiments about Lyanna is strange, except if he had a very controlling nature. Projecting the crime on Rhaegar seems like something he might do, psychologically. Rhaegar does seem like someone who would rescue Lyanna. Fobert did seem rather driven to keep drinking and it doesn't seem likely that it was just about Cersei.

But, it doesn't seem to fit the story line and hints, but hey, who knows?

 

[Koopa]

New trend in Westeros:
1) Robert is a bad bad man.
2)Rhaegar is a saint.
3)Lyanna is an innocent damsel

My version:
1)Robert is drunken old wenching sot who only ever wanted but ever failed to get Lyanna, couldn't be bothered with anything else, and therefore relatively harmless. His love for Lyanna is without question though.
2)Rhaegar is a half-insane cheat who's life was driven by his misinterpretation of some prophecy/vision. Sadly fated to be merely the one whose actions set into motion the song of ice and fire. His love for Lyanna partly driven by what he sees as his destiny.
3)Lyanna ran away without a word ensuring the death of her father, brother and countless northmen (and others) in hindsight. Chose to romp with a married man (who no doubt promised her future fidelity -good one that) over an unmarried man who romped around before his marriage and may or may not have continued to do so throughout their marriage. She may not have been dealt any good hands, but she didn't do well with the cards she was given either.

 

[summeriris]

New trend in Westeros:
1) Robert is a bad bad man.
2)Rhaegar is a saint.
3)Lyanna is an innocent damsel

My version:
1)Robert is drunken old wenching sot who only ever wanted but ever failed to get Lyanna, couldn't be bothered with anything else, and therefore relatively harmless. His love for Lyanna is without question though.
2)Rhaegar is a half-insane cheat who's life was driven by his misinterpretation of some prophecy/vision. Sadly fated to be merely the one whose actions set into motion the song of ice and fire. His love for Lyanna partly driven by what he sees as his destiny.
3)Lyanna ran away without a word ensuring the death of her father, brother and countless northmen (and others) in hindsight. Chose to romp with a married man (who no doubt promised her future fidelity -good one that) over an unmarried man who romped around before his marriage and may or may not have continued to do so throughout their marriage. She may not have been dealt any good hands, but she didn't do well with the cards she was given either.

Wow, that Lyanna, who would have thought it? Did she really kill her father and brother herself? Did she personally go out and slaughter an untold number of Northmen? Or could it have been that these actions were carried out by other people who could and did think and act for themselves and who also had their own agendas?

 

[Koopa]

Cause and Reaction

 

[summeriris]

Cause and Reaction

Who's cause and who's reactions? Were the results planned by Lyanna or were they planned by those who used Lyanna's actions for their own ends?

This condemnation of a female character for the actions of the men in the books strikes me as more that a little misogynist. Lyanna did not ask for her father and brother to be brutally murdered as far as I could read in the books, and frankly I don't think I read that she fell in love with a married man and did her best to destroy his marraige either. That seems to come under the heading of 'speculation'. It could be that she did fall in love with Rheagar and she did bear a child to him, but as far as I could understand the books, Rheagar had a brain and he had strength of character. I rather doubt that he was a puddle of wet clay that Lyanna manipulated at her will. Why no condemnation for the fact that she seems to have been bethrothed to someone she did not want against her will?

 

[Koopa]

Lyanna left with Rhaegar without a word of explanation. Against the wishes of her house.

Result: her father and brother have no choice given their complete lack of information to find her and bring her back. They end up demanding her return from Aerys mayhaps helped by Robert Baratheon convinction that Rhaegar has assaulted their daughter.

Aerys the Mad feels offended by the fact House Stark walks into his keep and dares demand something from him. He lives up to his name. Who then proceeds to demand the deaths of a buckload of people.

Eddard who's father and brother just been unjustly murdered, who has no idea what exactly happened to Lyanna, where she is, and what her relation with rhaegar is, and whose own life is threatened by Aerys has no choice to call his banners. Together with Robert Baratheon (his best friend, and Lyanna bethrothed ) and Jon Arryn their somewhat stepfather they go to war. Note that unless i forgot about it, Houses Baratheon, Arryn and Stark did not call for their banners until after Aerys cooked and decreed.

Cause and Reaction has nothing to do with planning. It is what follows after a certain action has been taken. Did she know what was going to happen, did she plan for it, offcourse not. Can she be at the very least partly considered to be the very reason this all went down, (in hindsight) definitely Yes. Take Lyanna and the choice she made away, and all the following would not have happened. It has nothing to do with a dislike for women. It is because i judge both men and women to their own character. And Lyanna's character while no doubt intriguing, interesting, and at times admirable is far from perfect.

I never said she was used by Rhaegar, she made the choice for Rheagar herself knowing that he was married and so on. I daresay she had quite a will of her own. Which is why rhaegar fell in love with her, and choose the cheat on his wife. Fact is Lyanna is pivotal to the entire war that followed. She is the first and foremost reason the war took place. That is undeniable. To make light of her actions and her decisions is wrong. While every other person involved is not entirely without blame (though i don't think eddard had ever any choice). For instance Rheagar should not have cheated on his wife with a highborn lady like that who was at the time bethroted. Aerys should not have cooked and decreed. and so on. BUT she is most definitely not blameless.

As for why i do not condamn the fact that she was bethrothed to a man she did not like. I never said i was okay with that. But you have to keep in mind that the setting is medieval times, not modern day, and it was common for noble borns to be bethrothed at birth. Also she could have refused to marry Robert, i highly doubt her father would have put a sword to her neck if she had refused, without running away with Rheagar. There is that choice as well.

It is said that Arya takes after Lyanna. And like Arya, Lyanna does not think her action through. She does not consider the possible consequences before she takes action. And whilst this is natural for a willful child, it is not for a fullgrown adult. Especially considering the people involved.

Also i want to add that i have nothing against women, i'm all for women's and men's equality, but it need to be true equality. While a lot of work still need to be done for women to get the same treatment, and this work should get done, i've found that too often they are their own enemies, instead of fighting for overall equality, they as often as not are fighting for better treatment then men in certain areas. And that is not right either. Also i dislike the fact that whenever you take a critcial stance against a woman, people are quick to judge you. There is feminisme and then their is feminisme.