Most Hated (Major) Character

[Eulalia]

Tryion reminds me of a certain Dr House on TV, who also makes me laugh, by going needlessly blunt, certainly not to avoid unnecessary conflict, I see him as painfully brave. I relate to looking a lot like a plush toy, but startle people with having my own opinions and shooting my mouth off like Tyrion when I really should play it safer. I do play it safer when it comes to strangling and crossbowings! but I like his lack of passivity when the game is on the line.

 

[the smiling weirwood]

Why do you say Olenna is the best player of the Game? From all evidence it seems as though Petyr is able to manipulate her easily.

Dany inspires devotion. All of her subjects are hers, forever. Her Dothraki are fanatical, her former slaves nigh on worship her, and numerous powerful men are held in sway by her beauty. A leader is measured by numerous criteria, but the most important is getting people to follow you, because without that no amount of good sense and prudence in the world will matter. Dany recognizes her own shortcomings in that she has limited to no understanding of the practicalities of rule and is working to correct her own ignorance. That is, more or less, why I consider Daenerys to be one of the better leaders and possessing the most potential of any character so far. She could still go mad, or she could be the best thing to happen to the world for a very long time.

 

[Koopa]

You're just a dany loverboy

Her dorthraki follow her without question, because they have proven to be dutiful people who hold great importance to vows and the fact that they saw her walk into blazing fire, coming out unharmed with three dragons.

So far the majority of the rest who follow her did/do so for either personal gain, or because they have nowhere else to go too, turn too.

 

[the smiling weirwood]

You could at least admit you just have a grudge against her, instead of dismissing a legitimate argument out of hand.

 

[Koopa]

No i didnt. (POSSIBLE SPOILERS FURTHER ON)

1) Jorah -> exiled, but did fell in love
2) Barristan the Bold : kicked out of the kingsguard, went back to the dragons because of it.
3) The unsullied: bought for and set free, but have no homes, no place to go too except to serve Dany.
4) Xaro Xoan : wanted a dragon
5) Pyat Pree: wanted her life?
6) Quaithe : Who knows!
7) Dothraki: already mentioned, add to that that most are old done people, or younglings who where unable to join the other Khalasars that left her. (thousands left, hundreds remained)
8) Doran and his son : want revenge for the past
9) Ilyrio Mopatis: who knows!
10) Varys: who knows!
11) Tyrion: sentenced to death, wants revenge and Tysha
12)handmaids: rescued but most also have no other place to go + true, they also get better lives mostly then they had before, and like her.
13) ...

There are those who love and devote her, but most wo join her flock do so for their own personal reasons. It has nothing to with devotion to her.

 

[Tansy]

There are those who love and devote her, but most wo join her flock do so for their own personal reasons. It has nothing to with devotion to her.

Isn't that the same for any leader - the skill of leadership is keeping them thinking that following you will see them better off than they would be following one of your rivals. Or keep them too scared to rebel

 

[Koopa]

yes and no, In renly and Robert Baratheons case, this was different. People loved them.

 

[the smiling weirwood]

See, you're using opinion as fact. There's no way to know that Dany's followers love her any less than the Baratheons' did, or even that Robert and Renly's subjects weren't just opportunistic sychophants either.

 

[Tansy]

In Robert's case his wife and kids certainly didn't plus a few other people he ruled

 

[Koopa]

In Robert case we have several proof of this, the two knights who first fought for the Dragons, and loater for him, became his fiercest supporters, died for him. We have Jon Arryn, we have Eddard Stark, we have several others, and this ability of his is mentioned throughout the books.

As for his wife and kids, we both know what they where like. Cersei and her oldest son are hated the most in this thread. Also there are hints that Joffrey feelings are ranging from this side to the other (though heavily influenced by Cersei.) We dont know about his other children. (The fake ones) His bastards for most seem to like him. (His real children.)

Its only natural that some Targaryen loyalist remain, and we know that not all banners flocked to him, but many did.

And tsw, i am not just basing this on my own opinion, it is mentioned throughout the books that people loved Renly and Robert for instance. When we hear about Danys followers loving her, it usually comes out of her own mouth. Not from others. The ones who follow dany may come to love her (like the remaing dothraki did, but they as of yet do not,they are not as devoted to them as you say.

I myself have been wondering about her main force, the Unsullied, and the fact is that most of them are bricks. They have been through too much training to just forgo their discipline/teachings at one word.(freedom) While at the same time, the more untrained, and in time the fully trained one may come to love her for it. There is no proof, no canon whatsoever that they do so right now. Right now, they merely have no other place to go to.

The main reasons people flock to Dany or undeniable not for love, as seen through the betrayals she has already faced.

 

[Tansy]

i agree with you really just being Devil's advocate - well about him being well loved but then he liked to drink and wench and act like one of the boys so no wonder his men liked him

 

[the smiling weirwood]

So I'm the Devil now, Tansy? It's true I can be extremely wicked.


Anyway, Dany has more of a cult following. Did you read the part where hordes of freed slaves call her Mother? They chant her title and kiss the ground she walks on. Maybe they don't love her for herself, but they adore her beyond reason. Sure, all those slaves and such are more or less useless, but still.

 

[Koopa]

I am not saying Dany might do some good for westeros (though if the maegi said it right, she cant have children, meaning once she dies a new war is likely to start again.) However i feel you see her through completely rosy glasses. You seem to overlook her characterflaws, wich CAN become problematic. And this is a big deal, if you look at what the same flaws did to her brother and father for example. Also i dislike the fact that she thinks of herself as the righteous queen, cause she is so obviously just another conqueror and contender.

 

[the smiling weirwood]

Who is righteous in this story? I think Dany is compassionate, at least more so than anyone else in a position of power at this point. I would rather have her as a leader than a Lannister or Stannis or whoever.

You're right though, she does have a bit of mania. Still, I think she is a good leader and becoming better.

If we want to look at it from a purely practical point of view, I suppose Petyr Baelish is the best leader Westeros has seen. So good, in fact, no one but he knows he's pulling the strings of the kingdom. He's utterly without scruples, however, and not someone I could trust. I could trust Dany, or Jon. Jon isn't in a position to lead anyone but the Night's Watch however.

 

[devilsgrin]

Why do you say Olenna is the best player of the Game? From all evidence it seems as though Petyr is able to manipulate her easily.

It certainly didn't seem like Olenna has been manipulated by Petyr at all and i think she is probably the only person who realises how gifted Lord Baelish is at the Game. I would say that she is a better player solely based on the ongoing fortunes and eminence of House Tyrell. As we know, the least scathed House in Westeros - with almost all of their forces intact. Olenna is certainly Mace's string puller. She it was who suggested Margeary for Renly. She it was who then agreed with Petyr over Margeary for Joffrey/Tommen. She probably had significant input in getting Loras Kingsguarded.

I see the collusion between Petyr and Olenna as a coming together of near equals (particularly the seamless transition of the power of the Reach going from supporting Renly to the Lannatheons/Bannisters (i love that wordplay btw)).
Olenna represents the power that a woman has to control and manipulate all the men and events around her - regardless of age or beauty - it all comes back to brains. She has them, uses them, and then uses the cover of being a tottering old woman with her immense bodyguards at beck and call.
Petyr is similar. he shows the potential of even the most minor lords to rise to positions of staggering power. opportunism, brilliance, brutal practicality. However, he has a few blind-spots and his rise has not gone unnoticed. He has yet to make the mistake of declaring against the Iron Throne, but it would be foolish to think that events in the Vale have gone unnoticed at King's Landing.
Olenna is known for her cunning, but is dismissed due to age and gender, Petyr minor lord he was or not, can no longer be dismissed. Too fast a rise... a catastrophic fall ahead? or the Iron Throne itself perhaps.
He certainly doesn't seem like a leader worth mentioning though. He'd be capable, but good i don't know. He's rather jackal like, and as soon as his "followers" particularly those in the Vale of Arryn loyal to House Arryn and not the Regent, see an opening, another jackal will rip his throat out. Sansa perhaps... though she may be better termed a dire wolf... the Stark side in her seems to be coming out... tempered by a greater knowledge of the Game than perhaps even Ned had.

 

[TK-421]

Petyr is similar. he shows the potential of even the most minor lords to rise to positions of staggering power. opportunism, brilliance, brutal practicality. However, he has a few blind-spots and his rise has not gone unnoticed. He has yet to make the mistake of declaring against the Iron Throne, but it would be foolish to think that events in the Vale have gone unnoticed at King's Landing.
Olenna is known for her cunning, but is dismissed due to age and gender, Petyr minor lord he was or not, can no longer be dismissed. Too fast a rise... a catastrophic fall ahead? or the Iron Throne itself perhaps.
He certainly doesn't seem like a leader worth mentioning though. He'd be capable, but good i don't know. He's rather jackal like, and as soon as his "followers" particularly those in the Vale of Arryn loyal to House Arryn and not the Regent, see an opening, another jackal will rip his throat out. Sansa perhaps... though she may be better termed a dire wolf... the Stark side in her seems to be coming out... tempered by a greater knowledge of the Game than perhaps even Ned had.

I agree here. While Littlefinger's position now compared to when the series began is impressive and what he has done to get there is equally impressive, I have always thought that he has bitten off more than he can chew and has met his downfall: a sweet girl named Alayne.

 

[devilsgrin]

oh yes TK, i agree.
The Stark girls are going to be rather dangerous to those who are in their bad-books.

And though Petyr "saved" her, 'Allayne' has seen through him. I would love to see her use him to further her own power, stage a stunning coup and take Winterfell as her own (possibly the Eyrie too with Harry the Heir in her pocket) - disregarding Rickon and Bran utterly, casting Littlefinger into a pit of jackals all-too-eager to shred him.

 

[mrc86]

I now i may be late to the time but i figured id share. I could stand Joffrey Baratheon he may be one on the most evil villians ever. Second behind him would be Cersei who was just as bad.

 

[Wiggum]

You can't honestly think that Sansa is going to outplay Littlefinger can you?

Littlefinger would have her flying within 30 seconds if he even got a whiff of it.

I understand that she's, somewhat, developed as a character, but there's no way she's capable of out manuevering Petyr. A man of the court, whom understood intrigue far more than Sansa's father who had been Lord of the North for however many years and a key player in winning the throne for Robert.

If Martin makes Sansa more politcally capable than Eddard, I will..............I don't know.

Just be surprised I guess.

 

[Boaz]

Wiggs is right. Baelish knows that Sansa is like a falcon. He'll fly her at targets, but someday she'll want to fly on her own. He knows this is coming... he's already preparing for it. But unlike the falcon, Sansa will ultimately be completely tamed. She'll be broken to the fist and learn to make that her life. She's not Arya. Arya will fight back when she sees the opportunity to throw off her shackles.

Sansa will ultimately only be a pretty little bird that recites sayings... unless someone frees her. She'll never be free on her own. Jon, Arya, Dany, and Howland are my guesses for Sansa's savior.