Most Hated (Major) Character

[mercymydarling]

I think everything he's done points towards his sense of strict justice except sanctioning Melisandre's killing of Renly.

I was under the impression that he didn't realize she had. He just believed that she saw his death in the flames. Come to think of it, is it ever mentioned, him being curious about Renly's death?

 

[the smiling weirwood]

No, because he knows very well what happened to him. He's like his brother Robert in that he doesn't see those things that are too painful for him.

He had to have sex with Melisandre in order to produce the shadow babies, or at least that's the method of siphoning his life force I am assuming from the way she attempted to seduce Davos. So he would have known something was going on. Surely he's not stupid enough to believe she would want to bed him for pleasure.

 

[mercymydarling]

Surely he's not stupid enough to believe she would want to bed him for pleasure.

I don't see why he wouldn't think that: as he understands, she came to Westeros for him, because he was the king of her legends... who doesn't want to shag a legend?

 

[Raven]

Does Stannis know about the shadowbabies? I don't think he does, but I might be mistaken.

A good question, one that's widely debated. He clearly knows something, given his apparent remorse over Renly's death (see his remarks about the peach). But how much exactly? We don't really know.

For the purposes of this discussion, though, we can simply substitute the leeches for the shadowbabies in my remarks above. He certainly knew about that.

And from what I understand, Stannis marched on Renly first because he needed Renly's men, not because de-throning Joffrey was less important.

He needed Renly's men to make himself king, but he didn't necessarily need them to dethrone Joffrey. Both Robb and Renly offered him an alliance to do just that. Stannis refused because accepting those offers would compromise his claim on the throne.

Now, you might say that he was justified in doing so - and particularly in the case of Renly, you'd have a point. But the question was whether Stannis was motivated by a desire to deny Joffrey, in particular, the throne, on the grounds that he was a monster. And the answer is that he wasn't. To him, Joffrey was just another usurper, the same as Renly or Balon or Robb. Stannis' priority wasn't stopping Joffrey: it was, and is, pursuing his own claim. De-throning Joffrey was certainly 'less important' than that - it was a subsidiary aim, at best.

I just remain convinced that he honestly doesn't realize he wants it. *g*

Very probably. Nonetheless, his claims that he doesn't want it are somewhat hard to credit.

 

[Ursa major]

Stannis believes that Cersei's sons were not Robert's (something that appears to be the truth), which made him the next in line to take Robert's throne. Like others posting here, I find it uncomfortable defending Stannis, but in the case of Robert's brothers, the one who has (or had, given his demise) the most to explain is Renly, who could have had no doubt that, whatever else was true, his claim to the throne came behind that of Stannis.

 

[mercymydarling]

Stannis believes that Cersei's sons were not Robert's (something that appears to be the truth)

Pretty sure that's as fact as these books get at this point, as they look all Lannister and Jaime has repeatedly thought of both Joffrey and Tommen as his sons.

And in reference to Stannis refusing alliances with Robb and Renly... I didn't quite understand why he would refuse Robb... well. I did. He totally just wants that big, uncomfortable throne all to himself. But an alliance with Robb would have probably worked well in both their favors. An alliance with Renly was a laughable thought at best, though... of all the kings lurking around, Renly was the true usurper of the bunch. Like Cressen thought, Renly was all, "I want to be king, look, I'm king!" and that was about as far as his "claim" went.

 

[Raven]

Like Cressen thought, Renly was all, "I want to be king, look, I'm king!" and that was about as far as his "claim" went.

Well, that and having by far the largest army. Which makes his claim arguably as valid as Robert's.

Also, recall that there is actually a little more to it. Renly's initial plan was to have Robert set aside Cersei for Margaery. Plan B was to help Ned sieze the Regency. Taking the crown for himself was, at best, plan C.

Why is supporting Stannis not plan C? He's blunt about this to Cat - he believes Stannis can't win. Highgarden and the Stormlands would support Renly, but they probably wouldn't support Stannis, because nobody wants Stannis on the throne. (Renly is being cruel when he taunts Stannis with this at the parley, but like all the cruellest remarks, it's true.) And without them Stannis will surely lose.

Yes, Renly reckons he is also much better qualified to be King and is very vain. But ironically, he has a much better claim to be motivated by the desire to stop Joffrey than Stannis does. That's been his aim all along - get rid of the Lannisters.

 

[TK-421]

If anything this little fireside exchange has proven is that none of the Baratheon brothers are fit to rule.

 

[mercymydarling]

I concur. I wish we'd gotten to know Renly better, though, he seemed a pretty interesting sort of guy.

 

[Sapienti]

Does anyone else think Sansa Stark should be on that list? Out of my top three most hated its her taking top honors, then Catelyn and then Joffrey. Other characters have redeemed themselves in my eyes but Sansa has not. She is way too naive and impressionable and has almost no willpower, opinion, or determination of her own. She was responsible for one of my original favorite characters deaths. She's talked into doing whatever people tell her too far too easily for my tastes.

She did start to show a little promise when Joff was finally out of the picture but quickly rebounded when she got punked by little finger. Her last chapter in AFFC made me more interested in reading about her though and that last line from Littlefinger made her go from just a character I detest to a character I love to hate because I want to see where his plan goes.

 

[Hilarious Joke]

Um. I love Sansa. I want to marry her. To hell with you, Harry the Heir!

 

[thesoothsayer]

Um. I love Sansa. I want to marry her. To hell with you, Harry the Heir!

Hound, is that you? The septons on that island taught you how to read and write?

 

[City of Troy]

Davos. I really... hate... Davos.

The guy himself is a pretty decent dude... but when I turn the page and see "Davos" as the next chapter's title, it makes me want to break something. Davos chapters suck.

 

[TK-421]

Really? Is it reading about Stannis and Mel that you don't like because that is what Davos' POV mostly shows us?

Now GRRM has confirmed that Mel gets her own POV in ADWD. That should bring a fresh perspective, especially since Davos is sent south via the sea to convince the other northern lords to get behind Stannis.

 

[Hilarious Joke]

I get annoyed by Jojen Reed. What a little know-it-all, wah, I have the green-sight, wah!

 

[Syphon of Oor-Tael]

Out of this list, Walder Frey. He's the reason nobody is safe.
Beyond the list: BRAN STARK. GO DIE! DIE! DIE NOW! YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!

 

[soulsinging]

You must be kidding. You include Jorah and Stannis, but leave out Littlefinger???

He's my absolute favorite character. I love Littlefinger.

I voted for Joffrey, just getting the edge on Cersei. Joffrey had no redeeming qualities, just a sadistic, arrogant little brat.

I'm halfway through AFFC and while I still hate Cersei, she is fascinating in some senses, the way she is ruled by paranoia and lets that drive her to destroy the kingdom. I don't like her, but I can see where she's coming from.

Stannis I don't mind. He's ruthless, but there's a method to it and a certain fairness. You know where you stand with him.

Cateyln can be annoying and make a lot of boneheaded decisions, but I always understood why she made them and she did her best under extreme circumstances to do right.

Walder is a solid choice... very little redeeming about him. He's petty and cruel and vain. He'd be right behind Cersei and Joff.

Gregor is a thug, not worthy of hate really.

Theon I don't mind. He's kind of arrogant, but also sympathetic in his difficult position... forced into a family to which he doesn't belong and later resented and dismissed by that family for spending too much time with the family they forced him into.

I never minded Jorah.

Tywin I am ok with as well. He can be ruthless and the way he treats Tyrion is disgusting, but he's also intelligent and wise as a ruler and sees people for who they are. He has no illusions about Cersei and recognizes the faults within his own family for the most part.

 

[soulsinging]

Rational? Spending your life obsessing over a woman who doesn't want you, to the point where you bed her sister and hope her daughter is next?

As for doom or throne, I see no reason it can't be both.

It's not rational, but it's perfectly understandable to me. Speaking as a guy that has been humiliated and had his heart broken by a woman he loved, I can very much relate to being hung up on the past and driven by the conflicting and contradictory desires to both get revenge upon and approval from said woman. I think he's fascinating for this reason... the cynicism masking the blatant insecurity and way he uses his clear intelligence to one up those who otherwise hold every advantage over him. Maybe I'm his only supporter, but he's my favorite character and I'm rooting for some sort of peace and satisfaction for him.

 

[Boaz]

I'm halfway through AFFC and while I still hate Cersei, she is fascinating in some senses, the way she is ruled by paranoia and lets that drive her to destroy the kingdom.

Yes. She's a train wreck... yet, I can't help but watch.

Cateyln can be annoying and make a lot of boneheaded decisions, but I always understood why she made them and she did her best under extreme circumstances to do right.

I've said it before, but I'll reiterate myself here. I hate Catelyn... because... she makes the same mistakes I would make, okay... she makes the same mistakes I have made... she repulses me because she clearly sees others motives and mistakes, and yet blunders from emotional decision to emotional decision in her own life. Like Catelyn, I feel I've taken one, okay... I've taken hundreds for the team, i.e. family, and yet I don't recieve gratitude in return. Yikes!

Now would be the perfect time for Aegon to jump in and shout me down for the whiner that I am. Ahhhhh.... I miss Egg.

 

[soulsinging]

I've said it before, but I'll reiterate myself here. I hate Catelyn... because... she makes the same mistakes I would make, okay... she makes the same mistakes I have made... she repulses me because she clearly sees others motives and mistakes, and yet blunders from emotional decision to emotional decision in her own life. Like Catelyn, I feel I've taken one, okay... I've taken hundreds for the team, i.e. family, and yet I don't recieve gratitude in return. Yikes!

Sounds like the same reason I love Littlefinger... there's something about seeing too much of yourself in a character.