Most Hated (Major) Character

[Robin Goodfellow]

Punishable by whom? The Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North could do it. But a little girl in Braavos? No.

I'm being more agent provocateur than hard line anti-Arya.

Do we think that Joffrey is evil? Yes. Has he personally killed as many people as Arya? I don't know that he ever killed anybody. Did he order the murders of as many people as Arya? We don't know... mayhaps more, mayhaps less. Yet Joffrey leads this poll and Arya is not even on it.

Is it just because we like Arya that we excuse her actions?

Joff is evil because he likes being evil. Arya is evil because of what happened to her. Arya is a much more sympathetic character because of what happened to her that twisted her view of life and death. It's what happened to her that allows us to excuse her actions.

 

[viZion]

Is it just because we like Arya that we excuse her actions?

Well, yeah. That's what I was implying in my post above. She's a sympathetic, likable character. She has an interesting personality. So we, as readers, like her. She does some naughty things but we still like her as a character because, in the end, we know we're dealing with a fantasy world. Liking Arya does not mean that we, as real life people, condone wanton murder, vengeance, and reciting death lists before we go to sleep. We just think she's cool, man. Joffrey, not so much, because he's an awful a-hole.

 

[No One]

Arya is already evil.

She murdered a stableboy in KL. She ordered the deaths of Weese and Chiswyck. She conspired to murder the Brave Companions. She murdered one of Bolton's guards. She killed the squire when Polliver and the Tickler attacked Sandor. She stabbed the Tickler in the back and repeatedly stabbed him until he was dead. She murdered Dareon.

I'm not saying that those men did not deserve to die. And in the cases of the stableboy, the squire and the Tickler, it could be argued that her life was in imminent danger... and that she was defending herself.

But what had Chiswyck and Dareon done to her? They were liars and cheats without any honor, but they'd done nothing to her. Arya is not an appointed judge nor a licensed executioner. And she did not kill or order people killed out of a sense of justice (well, maybe in Chiswyck's case). She murders or has people murdered to satisfy her lust for vengeance. You don't agree? What is the last thing Arya does before sleeping? Ah, yes, she recites a list of names of people who she wants dead.

And what is Arya doing now? Oh, yeah... she is in training to become an assassin. She does this to further her skills so that she can personally kill everyone on her list.

Arya is evil.

Boaz - Robin and Vizion (hey guys) pretty much summed it up for me, but I just can't leave it alone. Here's how I'd break it down.

Stable boy = him or her.
Weese = A vindictive, childish, choice, but a vindictive man.
Chiswyck = more than justified.
Brave Companions = more than deserve to die.
Bolton's guard = incredibly harsh, but necessary. I'd say this was actually the most unpleasant of the kills though.
Polliver's squire = pretty much, again, him or her (he may not have killed her but what exactly do you think Polliver and the Tickler would've done to her?)
The Tickler = cheered every stab.
Dareon = again, harsh, but screw him - he abandoned the Night's Watch. In itself a death penalty.

How anyone can say that she has no right as judge and executioner is beyond me. We've seen time and again that people with the 'lawful' rights of judgement and sentencing are constantly abusing their power (the only exception, tragically, was Ned), while everyone else - like the brave companions - simply couldn't care less.

As we know, this is not a world full of modern sensibility towards life and death. Arya is simply responding to the disproportionate amount of suffering and abuse that she has endured and seen everywhere around her. Her 'lust for vengeance' was born and conditioned by those events and, in my opinion, is completely understandable. How else is a child who's lost everything supposed to respond? Hell, how would the Jaime of old, or the Hound, or Gregor respond to having everything they valued utterly destroyed?

If Arya is evil, then there isn't a word for Gregor and his men. There's no question that she's on a slippery slope in terms of where Martin's going with the assassin angle, but until she slits Jon's throat I'd like to think that the preservation of Needle means she still hangs very much in the balance.

And besides, you said she was evil - you didn't say if you hate her.

 

[No One]

In the time it took me to write that, there have been several other responses...d'oh!

Anyway, I appreciate that you're playing devil's advocate here Boaz, but you won't get me to agree.

Kill 'em all, Arya. Except Jon.

***

Just to get this thread back on track, I'm amazed at the lack of votes for Tywin. Sure, he had some admirable qualities, but Tywin was ultimately responsible for the Red Wedding, if not the manner of its execution. Strange how the lack of blood on his hands seems to have lulled us into dismissing that fact.

 

[Eulalia]

Karn, seems like a wise choice. Someday I hope that changes for you, but it's no big deal. All the best.

I love how GRRM takes a likeable character, the fiesty, loyal, honest, tomboy and then pushes the boundaries farther and farther. He's done the same with Tyrion, and I don't suppose he will ever get on the hate list.

Reese should be on there as soon as ADWD comes on, though!

I think it was harder to vote for Joffrey because he already got what was coming. Harder to feel the hate thing, when his days of bullying are over. Still, what a perfectly horrid youth.

 

[No One]

I think it was harder to vote for Joffrey because he already got what was coming. Harder to feel the hate thing, when his days of bullying are over. Still, what a perfectly horrid youth.

Agreed. It may sound like a terrible, terrible thing to say, but in some ways the most satisfying thing about Joffrey's death was Cersei's scream.

 

[chairface]

I actually didn't enjoy Joffrey's death scene at all - I thought it was quite a horrible way to die, and it was the only time where I felt some sympathy for Cersei. The harshness of the thing made me feel like it was ... almost undeserved. And I say this as one of the people who voted for Joffrey in this poll.

What floors me about this poll is the number votes for Walder. The man is hilarious, and I genuinely enjoy reading his scenes, few though they may be. And yeah, sure, he arranged the deaths Robb and Grey Wind, but it's not as though Robb was wholly innocent with respect to the Freys. I'm not saying that murder and violating guest right are the proper responses to a broken oath, but you have to acknowledge that Walder had a legitimate gripe with the Starks. There's also the fact that Tywin pulled the strings that made the Red Wedding happen, as No One pointed out - which puts Tywin above Walder on my most hated list.

Furthermore, Walder killed Cat. Isn't that worth something? I mean sure, she came back, but points for effort, eh?

 

[Blue Mythril]

Joffrey hands down.

My hatred for Catelyn is well known, but she's a character that I love to hate. I enjoy the way the GRRM uses Catelyn to push my social, familial, political, and gender buttons. I may disagree with almost everything she did, but sometimes I wonder if mayhaps she was right on an issue or two. Joffrey never made me feel that way. I just hate him. He was a murdering, lying, abusive, vindictive psychopath.

Like Catelyn, I love to hate Tywin, Cersei, Walder, and Littlefinger. They are just too interesting to be ignored. Their actions are too critical to the ultimate plot resolution to dismiss. And they (sometimes) have justifiable reasons for their actions (crimes). Joffrey never had any justifiable reasons for any thing he did.

I used to hate Tyrion and Jaime the way I hate Catelyn. The hatred for Tyrion lasted only until he gave Luwin the plans for Bran's saddle. My hatred for Jaime died with his saving Brienne from being gang raped, his confession of murdering Aerys II to save the citizens of KL, and his rescuing of Brienne in the bear pit.

As for Stannis... he's petulant and in clear denial of reality. As for Theon... he's a classic small time hood that's in waaaay over his head. As for Jorah... for a guy that wise in most matters, he makes a lot of boneheaded decisions concerning himself. As for Gregor... he's just not a major player in my book... he's merely Tywin's flunky like Slynt was Littlefinger's flunky, Gregor's just better at his job.

Couldn't have expressed it better myself. That's an excellent sumamry of these characters, and my reactions to them as GRRM revealed their humanity (or, in Littlefinger's case, the extent of his lack of humanity).

I voted Joff, although Catelyn Stark and Walder Frey weren't too far behind. Littlefinger would have been second for me, as he's an evil evil man, and I don't like his current sway over Sansa... But I agree, he is an intriguing character that is definitely stimulating the story and events. I don't hate Catelyn in the way that I do Walder (I find him way more creepy than Littlefinger - his tastes for nubile young women, the sheer amount of wives he's been through, and that seedy lecherous cough "heh heh" *shudder*).

It's funny, Tywin I find one of the most ruthless characters in the whole series, and yet I don't feel as passionate about him as I do the others? Not sure why.

 

[No One]

I actually didn't enjoy Joffrey's death scene at all - I thought it was quite a horrible way to die, and it was the only time where I felt some sympathy for Cersei. The harshness of the thing made me feel like it was ... almost undeserved. And I say this as one of the people who voted for Joffrey in this poll.

What floors me about this poll is the number votes for Walder. The man is hilarious, and I genuinely enjoy reading his scenes, few though they may be. And yeah, sure, he arranged the deaths Robb and Grey Wind, but it's not as though Robb was wholly innocent with respect to the Freys. I'm not saying that murder and violating guest right are the proper responses to a broken oath, but you have to acknowledge that Walder had a legitimate gripe with the Starks. There's also the fact that Tywin pulled the strings that made the Red Wedding happen, as No One pointed out - which puts Tywin above Walder on my most hated list.

Furthermore, Walder killed Cat. Isn't that worth something? I mean sure, she came back, but points for effort, eh?

I had very little sympathy for Cersei or Joffrey in that scene, but after AFFC I've kind of started pitying Cersei, mainly because she just comes off as desperate and, in a roundabout way, stupid (arming the church was as good as suicide). Still a twisted, vindictive bitch though.

And your view that Walder is hilarious makes me laugh, like he's some kind of ******** comedian!? You must really have not liked Cat. It's solely for the sewing of Grey Wind's head onto Robb's body that cinched it for me as far as Walder is concerned.

By the way, how good is it that Dany saw the wolf-headed king in her dream/vision? At the time, it's just all symbolism - only it turns out literally. Brilliant.

 

[The Imp]

I had very little sympathy for Cersei or Joffrey in that scene, but after AFFC I've kind of started pitying Cersei, mainly because she just comes off as desperate and, in a roundabout way, stupid (arming the church was as good as suicide). Still a twisted, vindictive bitch though.

And your view that Walder is hilarious makes me laugh, like he's some kind of ******** comedian!? You must really have not liked Cat. It's solely for the sewing of Grey Wind's head onto Robb's body that cinched it for me as far as Walder is concerned.

By the way, how good is it that Dany saw the wolf-headed king in her dream/vision? At the time, it's just all symbolism - only it turns out literally. Brilliant.

I just had this image of the Twins being laid to waste with dragons, large boulders, etc. One will come down, then the other. It will, of course, happen on Sept 11th Westeros time.

As for Walder, I totally agree. He's vile scum, but I think I've already made my case previously in this thread.

No One, was it you that mentioned Old Boy, or was it Chairface? I was hoping to hear more about it.

 

[No One]

No One, was it you that mentioned Old Boy, or was it Chairface? I was hoping to hear more about it.

Was me. Please peruse the 'HBO commisions season 1, etc' thread, page 5 i think. I put in a bit, which, in retrospect, didn't say anything about Oldboy other than it's must-see. I waxed lyrical over the director though and mentioned the majority of his other films.

To expand a little on Oldboy - it's very dark, very twisted, and not for the overly sensitive (although the director never shows the really nasty stuff directly). It shouldn't be a problem for anyone who can stomach some of the more unpleasant themes of ASOIAF, let's put it that way. In fact, it shares similar themes...

Surely someone can back me up on how great this film is

 

[The Imp]

Was me. Please peruse the 'HBO commisions season 1, etc' thread, page 5 i think. I put in a bit, which, in retrospect, didn't say anything about Oldboy other than it's must-see. I waxed lyrical over the director though and mentioned the majority of his other films.

To expand a little on Oldboy - it's very dark, very twisted, and not for the overly sensitive (although the director never shows the really nasty stuff directly). It shouldn't be a problem for anyone who can stomach some of the more unpleasant themes of ASOIAF, let's put it that way. In fact, it shares similar themes...

Surely someone can back me up on how great this film is

It sounds "wonderful" I'll be sure to see it. According to my research, it's part of a trilogy? The first and third each have the word "revenge" in their names, I think.

Thanks for the reply

 

[chairface]

I had very little sympathy for Cersei or Joffrey in that scene

I guess that just strikes me as kind of... cold. To die clawing at your neck trying to breathe, without knowing how or why, or to watch your child die in that way... I don't particularly care how vile a person is - they don't deserve that.

And your view that Walder is hilarious makes me laugh, like he's some kind of ******** comedian!?

Yes, he is quite funny. He says whatever he's thinking, even (especially?) if it makes people around him uncomfortable. I believe Martin wrote him to be funny (initially), and the way Roy Dotrice reads him is even more humorous than what I had in my head. Before the Red Wedding, he was one of my favorite characters.

You must really have not liked Cat.

I'm actually quite ambivalent on pre-RW Cat. Recently, I think the possibilities for her character to be interesting have improved dramatically, as long as she doesn't continue to be written in the rather one-dimensional way she has so far, as we find out more about her state of mind.

It's solely for the sewing of Grey Wind's head onto Robb's body that cinched it for me as far as Walder is concerned.

Do we know for sure that Walder is the one who instigated that? I don't remember clearly. Also, I think it's odd that some people emphasize this part of it, rather than the actual murders. Is what they did with the bodies really the worst part of it?

 

[No One]

Chairface - Just to go back to a couple of those points:

Re: Joffrey's death. For the most part, I think justice has to be 'an eye for an eye'. No, it weren't a pleasant way to die. But then, neither is having your head cut off for being a loyal friend and subject of the previous king only to then have your head paraded in front of a family member. Yes, Joff was young, but there's little doubt in my mind that he would've only grown worse with age. I can't find a drop of sympathy for him.

Re: Walder. It's funny cause I just always thought of Walder as a lecherous worm...now I think he's a dangerous lecherous worm. I wonder if a re-read would highlight his sense of humour for me...

And I'm assuming that the robb/greywind vivisection had to be at Walder's order. And yes, it's that 'personal' touch, coupled with the breaking of guest right, that makes things infinitely worse. As we agreed before, Walder had a legitimate gripe against the Starks having been denied the chance to advance one of his daughters to royalty, but if Tywin and Walder wanted to bring Robb to heel then they might've conspired to meet Robb in battle on two fronts rather than use one of, if not the, most basic law of Westerosi civilization to trap him. For me, the vivisection part is the icing on the cake - an absurdly horrific thing to do because they'd already gone so far as to murder him in cold blood.

Now that I think about it though, I'm wondering if it wasn't Tywin's idea? There was never any outward show of Tywin hating the fact that Robb never lost to the Lannisters in open battle, or to the fact that he'd captured Jaime, but we all know it pissed him off something fierce. Can anyone confirm whose idea it was? I'm not sure that it was ever specifically mentioned?

 

[chairface]

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on Joffrey's demise - but either way it's darn fine storytelling.

Also, I think the Walder thing might just come down to me thinking that lecherous old men are funnier than you do.

 

[Robin Goodfellow]

Now that I think about it though, I'm wondering if it wasn't Tywin's idea? There was never any outward show of Tywin hating the fact that Robb never lost to the Lannisters in open battle, or to the fact that he'd captured Jaime, but we all know it pissed him off something fierce. Can anyone confirm whose idea it was? I'm not sure that it was ever specifically mentioned?

After the red wedding Tywin tells Tyrion it was his idea. The conversation went like this:

(After some conversation about who ordered Elia's death)
Tyrion: Was it a soft silk pillow that slew Robb Stark?

Tywin: It was to be an arrow, ad Edmure Tully's wedding feast. The boy was too wary in the field. He kept his mes in good order, and surrounded himself with outriders and bodyguards.

Tyrion:So Lord Walder slew him under his own roof, at his own table? What of lady Catelyn?

Tywin: Slain as well, I'd say. A Pair of wolfskins. Frey had intended to keep her capative, but perhaps something went awry.

Tyrion: So much for guest right.

Tywin: The blood is on Walder Frey's hands, not mine.

Tyrion: Walder Frey is a peevish old man who lives to fondle his young wife and brood over all the slights he's suffered. I have no doubt he hatched this ugly chicken but he would never have dared such a thing without a promise of protection.

Tywin: I suppose you would have spared the boy and told Lord Frey you had no need of his allegiance? That would have driven the old fool right back into Stark's arms and won you another ten years of war. Explain to me why it is more noble to kill ten thousand men in battle than to kill a dozen at dinner?

Clearly Tywin was the mastermind behind the red wedding.

 

[Boaz]

Yes, he masterminded the entire affair... yet, Jaime helped to bring the Boltons around.

It's funny, Tywin I find one of the most ruthless characters in the whole series, and yet I don't feel as passionate about him as I do the others? Not sure why.

I think we don't feel as much animosity towards Tywin as we do towards Joffrey, Cersei, Walder, and Viserys because GRRM always maintains Tywin's patriotism at the forefront of his motives.

Joff, Cersei, and Walder all clutch at power for their own sakes. Clearly Tywin loves power, but he's able to also justify his actions by protecting the realm... He's the most experienced and capable man for the job. He is merely trying to avoid more bloodshed. Of course he and his family gain immensely from his success, but he does not personally gain like the other hated characters when they make decisions of state.

These others plot revenge only for personal reasons. Joff beheaded Eddard, Cersei schemed against Margaery, and Walder murdered Robb all for personal reasons. Joff touched off a revolution, Cersei has allowed the Church to usurp royal authority and throw the capital into chaos, and Walder broke the greatest taboo in Westeros. Of the three, only Walder's can even be rationalized as in the best interests of the realm. Comparatively, Tywin's actions (whether sound policy or not) can be obviously cloaked in patriotism. The annihilations of Houses Reyne and Tarbeck, Tywin's sack of King's Landing, the deaths of Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon, the burning of the Riverlands, the Red Wedding, and the elevation of the Boltons (including the faking of Arya Stark) are all despicable, yet these actions can all be defended (sometimes barely) as necessary for the stability of the realm.

And I don't think that Tywin merely cloaks his actions in a veneer of patriotism. I think he fully believes himself as the defender of Westeros... thus all of his deeds and decisions benefit all of Westeros.

Then again maybe it's not patriotism. Mayhaps it's just the fact that Joff, Cersei, and Walder appear to be so petty that Tywin's grand schemes appear more noble...

 

[The Imp]

Yes, he masterminded the entire affair... yet, Jaime helped to bring the Boltons around.



I think we don't feel as much animosity towards Tywin as we do towards Joffrey, Cersei, Walder, and Viserys because GRRM always maintains Tywin's patriotism at the forefront of his motives.

Joff, Cersei, and Walder all clutch at power for their own sakes. Clearly Tywin loves power, but he's able to also justify his actions by protecting the realm... He's the most experienced and capable man for the job. He is merely trying to avoid more bloodshed. Of course he and his family gain immensely from his success, but he does not personally gain like the other hated characters when they make decisions of state.

These others plot revenge only for personal reasons. Joff beheaded Eddard, Cersei schemed against Margaery, and Walder murdered Robb all for personal reasons. Joff touched off a revolution, Cersei has allowed the Church to usurp royal authority and throw the capital into chaos, and Walder broke the greatest taboo in Westeros. Of the three, only Walder's can even be rationalized as in the best interests of the realm. Comparatively, Tywin's actions (whether sound policy or not) can be obviously cloaked in patriotism. The annihilations of Houses Reyne and Tarbeck, Tywin's sack of King's Landing, the deaths of Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon, the burning of the Riverlands, the Red Wedding, and the elevation of the Boltons (including the faking of Arya Stark) are all despicable, yet these actions can all be defended (sometimes barely) as necessary for the stability of the realm.

And I don't think that Tywin merely cloaks his actions in a veneer of patriotism. I think he fully believes himself as the defender of Westeros... thus all of his deeds and decisions benefit all of Westeros.

Then again maybe it's not patriotism. Mayhaps it's just the fact that Joff, Cersei, and Walder appear to be so petty that Tywin's grand schemes appear more noble...

What you say makes a lot of sense, except, I beleive that if Tywin had to make a choice between the good of the realm and the good of his family, he'd pick his family. I'd make the argument that it's morally/ethically convenient for him that that most of the decisions he's had to make furthered the interests of both, but you can only shake your head in wonder at some of the implicit decisions he's made, or things he's allowed, all for his family.

Tywin is perhaps the most able man in the 7 Kingdoms if you weigh in factors such as sheer intelligence, political and military,astuteness, the ability to lead, the ability to be ruthless when needed, etc. How could such a man allow a sociopathic and power hungry woman who clearly has her own best interests at heart to marry the King? She's family. He indulged his grandson by allowing him to execute Eddard, something clearly not in the best interest of the realm, again, beucase of family. Allowing Ser Barristan Selmy to be booted out of the King's Guard reeks of the same indulgance.

I don't think Tywin is nearly as detestable as his Joffrey, or Walder or Cersei, but, his hands certainly aren't clean.

 

[Boaz]

Imp, I agree. Tywin is absolutely ruthless. I don't know if he's a sociopath, but he certainly does not lose sleep over murdering people. Yes, he's benefitted greatly from ruling the kingdom. His grandsons, nephews, daughter, son, his brother in-law, in fact all of his relatives, have gained in title, prestige, power, and treasure since Tywin first turned Gregor loose on the Riverlands.

 

[Robin Goodfellow]

But Imp...Tywin did not want Eddard murdered, and was not even there when it happened. Later he sent Tyrion to Kings landing to make sure stuff like that did not happen. All your other points are valid but Tywin had nothing to do with Eddard's death, to suggest otherwise is just wrong.

Edit: And he didn't want Ser Barristan booted out either. He said later it was a big mistake, and would have stopped it if he was there.