Most Disturbing Moment/Event (SPOiLERS!!!)

The Imp

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 25, 2008
Messages
5,377
One of the things I like most about this series is how real it is. Things aren't sugar-coated. You sometimes finish your reading session feeling upset, sad, etc. My question is, in a series that has brought us the death of Ned, the massacre of The Red Wedding, Dany losing Drogo to the betrayal of Mirri Mazz Duur, Tyrion's story of his "marriage", Oberyn's battle with Gregor, etc. I was blown away yesterday by the story Chyswick told about the raping and gang-raping of the Aleman's daughter. For those that don't remember (mods, I hope this isn't "illegal")

“After the Hand’s tourney, it were, before the war come,” Chiswyck was saying. “We were on our ways back west, seven of us with Ser Gregor. Raff was with me, and young Joss Stilwood, he’d squired for Ser in the lists. Well, we come on this pisswater river, running high on account there’d been rains. No way to ford, but there’s an alehouse near, so there we repair. Ser rousts the brewer and tells him to keep our horns full till the waters fall, and you should see the man’s pig eyes shine at the sight o’ silver. So he’s fetching us ale, him and his daughter, and poor thin stuff it is, no more’n brown piss, which don’t make me any happier, nor Ser neither. And all the time this brewer’s saying how glad he is to have us, custom being slow on account o’ them rains. The fool won’t shut his yap, not him, though Ser is saying not a word, just brooding on the Knight o’ Pansies and that bugger’s trick he played. You can see how tight his mouth sits, so me and the other lads we know better’n to say a squeak to him, but this brewer he’s got to talk, he even asks how m’lord fared in the jousting. Ser just gave him this look.” Chiswyck cackled, quaffed his ale, and wiped the foam away with the back of his hand. “Meanwhile, this daughter of his has been fetching and pouring, a fat little thing, eighteen or so—”
“Thirteen, more like,” Raff the Sweetling drawled.
“Well, be that as it may, she’s not much to look at, but Eggon’s been drinking and gets to touching her, and might be I did a little touching meself, and Raff’s telling young Stilwood that he ought t’ drag the girl upstairs and make hisself a man, giving the lad courage as it were. Finally Joss reaches up under her skirt, and she shrieks and drops her flagon and goes running off to the kitchen. Well, it would have ended right there, only what does the old fool do but he goes to Ser and asks him to make us leave the girl alone, him being an anointed knight and all such.
“Ser Gregor, he wasn’t paying no mind to none of our fun, but now he looks, you know how he does, and he commands that the girl be brought before him. Now the old man has to drag her out of the kitchen, and no one to blame but hisself. Ser looks her over and says, ‘So this is the whore you’re so concerned for’ and this besotted old fool says, ‘My Layna’s no whore, ser’ right to Gregor’s face. Ser, he never blinks, just says, ‘She is now’ tosses the old man another silver, rips the dress off the wench, and takes her right there on the table in front of her da, her flopping and wiggling like a rabbit and making these noises. The look on the old man’s face, I laughed so hard ale was coming out me nose. Then this boy hears the noise, the son I figure, and comes rushing up from the cellar, so Raff has to stick a dirk in his belly. By then Ser’s done, so he goes back to his drinking and we all have a turn. Tobbot, you know how he is, he flops her over and goes in the back way. The girl was done fighting by the time I had her, maybe she’d decided she liked it after all, though to tell the truth I wouldn’t have minded a little wiggling. And now here’s the best bit . . . when it’s all done, Ser tells the old man that he wants his change. The girl wasn’t worth a silver, he says . . . and damned if that old man didn’t fetch a fistful of coppers, beg m’lord’s pardon, and thank him for the custom!

this is just so horrible on so many levels. I'm on my 4th (I think) re-read nad this just made me stop what I was doing for a bit, much in the same way the Red Wedding did. I'm not comparing the two events of course, only talking about emothinal impact.

So what comes to mind for you all? big or small, it doesn't matter
 
Yes, that bit was horrible!! Been a long time since I read the books, but didn't something similar happen to another woman? She got pulled from a horse and raped by a lot of men, then ended up pregnant. I want to say her name is Lolly or something similar.

Don't like that stuff. :( Also, it shocked me when the wolf's head was sewn onto Robb's body. I had to read it twice cos I didn't believe it had happened.
 
Hey, good to see the mighty Mouse here :). Agreed that the head-sewing simply has to be no: 1 for me, though Imp's sample is certainly a standout disturbing moment.

I imagine, these books being what they are, that there are plenty of candidates for this thread.

A couple of others that spring to mind is Tywin's treatment of Tyrion's young wife and Jaime and Cersei, erm...doing what they do...in the sept where Joffrey's body is being kept. Or doing what they do pretty much anywhere for that matter.
 
Yes, that bit was horrible!! Been a long time since I read the books, but didn't something similar happen to another woman? She got pulled from a horse and raped by a lot of men, then ended up pregnant. I want to say her name is Lolly or something similar.

Don't like that stuff. :( Also, it shocked me when the wolf's head was sewn onto Robb's body. I had to read it twice cos I didn't believe it had happened.
Yes, she was raped and ultimately ended up married to Ser Bron, maybe even more horrible, depending on one's viewpoint.
 
Tywin's treatment of Tyrion's young wife.

I think that one takes the cake for me. Some of the others are barbaric, but war is an ugly business and the fact that they happen is not surprising. But the calculating cruelty to one's child is pretty awful.
 
One of the things I like most about this series is how real it is. Things aren't sugar-coated. You sometimes finish your reading session feeling upset, sad, etc. My question is, in a series that has brought us the death of Ned, the massacre of The Red Wedding, Dany losing Drogo to the betrayal of Mirri Mazz Duur, Tyrion's story of his "marriage", Oberyn's battle with Gregor, etc. I was blown away yesterday by the story Chyswick told about the raping and gang-raping of the Aleman's daughter. For those that don't remember (mods, I hope this isn't "illegal")


Because of that story and his laughter after he told it, Arya killed him with a whisper. He was her first victim and it was deeply satisfying to me.

As for things leaving deep impact on me (besides all those mentioned before in this thread), it had to be examples of lord Randyll Tarly's justice. He cuts seven fingers of a man and leaves him only thumbs and one more for stealing from a septon, orders sick whore to be washed with acid between the legs... and of course, what he did to poor Sam, dead deer and all.
 
The thing that seems so shocking to me about the Innkeeper's daughter's story is the way it is so casually told; the fact that they're bragging and laughing about something so monstrous. I reread this part recently, and it had more of an impact 2nd time round. I was proud of Arya for deciding to off Chyswick because of this!

One of my lasting impressions when I finished the books first time was just how cheap life is in Westeros. I know that there are countless brutalities out here in the real world, but even in war there are things like the Geneva Convention and the fact that most armies (supposedly) try to target military installations rather than civilian targets (NB I'm not trying to start anything on the realities or rights & wrongs of war, just making a general comparison). In Westeros, it is literally defend yourself or die. The violence and death kinda shocked me first time. OK there are the big shocks like Ned, but the casual violence, like torching a village and murdering its occupants, for no reason other than that they were in the way, was really quite bleak. It makes me wonder if life was really like than 600 or 700 years ago. :(
 
The thing that seems so shocking to me about the Innkeeper's daughter's story is the way it is so casually told; the fact that they're bragging and laughing about something so monstrous. I reread this part recently, and it had more of an impact 2nd time round. I was proud of Arya for deciding to off Chyswick because of this!

One of my lasting impressions when I finished the books first time was just how cheap life is in Westeros. I know that there are countless brutalities out here in the real world, but even in war there are things like the Geneva Convention and the fact that most armies (supposedly) try to target military installations rather than civilian targets (NB I'm not trying to start anything on the realities or rights & wrongs of war, just making a general comparison). In Westeros, it is literally defend yourself or die. The violence and death kinda shocked me first time. OK there are the big shocks like Ned, but the casual violence, like torching a village and murdering its occupants, for no reason other than that they were in the way, was really quite bleak. It makes me wonder if life was really like than 600 or 700 years ago. :(
So many things were sad about that story. In addition to the casual cruelty-

the fact that the aleman trusted that an anointed knight would act the part.

the son getting a dirk in the stomach

the daughter not fighting any more when it came to be Chysick's "turn"

the Aleman giving Gregor change when he asked him for it.
 
The thing that seems so shocking to me about the Innkeeper's daughter's story is the way it is so casually told; the fact that they're bragging and laughing about something so monstrous. I reread this part recently, and it had more of an impact 2nd time round. I was proud of Arya for deciding to off Chyswick because of this!

One of my lasting impressions when I finished the books first time was just how cheap life is in Westeros. I know that there are countless brutalities out here in the real world, but even in war there are things like the Geneva Convention and the fact that most armies (supposedly) try to target military installations rather than civilian targets (NB I'm not trying to start anything on the realities or rights & wrongs of war, just making a general comparison). In Westeros, it is literally defend yourself or die. The violence and death kinda shocked me first time. OK there are the big shocks like Ned, but the casual violence, like torching a village and murdering its occupants, for no reason other than that they were in the way, was really quite bleak. It makes me wonder if life was really like than 600 or 700 years ago. :(

I'm sure these things happened in times of war. Not too mention that slaves still existed in that timeperiod. (at least with the vikings, unless i'm remebering it wrong).

As for (war) atrocities, they still happen today.

In 'some' countries, when a wife is 'caught' of having been raped by another man, she is guilty of adultery, and gets a stoning as punishment.

In WW II, tons of atrocities where committed by both sides. We all know about Hitler and his camps, we know about the camps of the Japanese. The russians whom in the sacking of Berlin raped and plundered to their hearts content, ...
 
Well said Kiwi.

My ex's grandfather was a conscientious objector in WW II Germany, an optometrist. Near the end of the war, he was forced to go to the front. He surrendered. He was in a POW camp where they were starved. He ended up dying in a French prison camp in food riots. His widow and daughter ended up starving and at one point were strafed while on the road. The widow "billeted" a Russian officer to survive. The officer protected her Arya aged daughter from rape because she reminded him of his daughter back home. The Wars of the Roses was notoriously chaotic, also.

I don't have to remind anyone of Abu Graib, that's very current?

If anyone wants to check our some classic experiments in psychology in which they showed that normal healthy people can commit very bad acts while under the influence of authority figures, I have two. The first experimenter, Stanley Milgram could not believe that otherwise normal people would follow directions to shock another human being and yet they did. Just from the direction of a guy in a white coat, for no great reason.

The other experiment, the Stanford Prison Experiment conducted by Phil Zimbardo, showed how healthy students took randomly assigned prison guard and prisoner "roles" much too seriously, people broke down, and the sadistic acts got way out of control all in a matter of days.

I think GRRM is very much trying to illustrate the intrinsic evil of war and blindly following orders, and how lines get blurred.

Anyway, back to ASOIAF.
The first disturbing moment for me was the circumstances and death of Lady the direwolf.
 
I have found the quote I was looking for, proving why Randyll Tarly would be bad hand for peace time.

A stripling in a roughspun cloak and soiled jerkin was being heard when they came up. “I never hurt no one, m’lord,” Brienne heard him say. “I only took what the septons left when they run off. If you got to take my finger for that, do it.”
“It is customary to take a finger from a thief,” Lord Tarly replied in a hard voice, “but a man who steals from a sept is stealing from the gods.” He turned to his captain of guards. “Seven fingers. Leave his thumbs.”
“Seven?” The thief paled. When the guards seized hold of him he tried to fight, but feebly, as if he were already maimed. Watching him, Brienne could not help think of Ser Jaime, and the way he’d screamed when Zollo’s arakh came flashing down.
The next man was a baker, accused of mixing sawdust in his flour. Lord Randyll fined him fifty silver stags. When the baker swore he did not have that much silver, his lordship declared that he could have a lash for every stag that he was short. He was followed by a haggard grey-faced whore, accused of giving the pox to four of Tarly’s soldiers. “Wash out her private parts with lye and throw her in a dungeon,” Tarly commanded. As the whore was dragged off sobbing, his lordship saw Brienne on the edge of the crowd, standing between Podrick and Ser Hyle. He frowned at her, but his eyes betrayed not a flicker of recognition.
A sailor off the galleas came next. His accuser was an archer of Lord Mooton’s garrison, with a bandaged hand and a salmon on his breast. “If it please m’lord, this bastid put his dagger through my hand. He said I was cheating him at dice.”
Lord Tarly took his gaze away from Brienne to consider the men before him. “Were you?”
“No, m’lord. I never.”
“For theft, I will take a finger. Lie to me and I will hang you. Shall I ask to see these dice?”
“The dice?” The archer looked to Mooton, but his lordship was gazing at the fishing boats. The bowman swallowed. “Might be I . . . them dice, they’re lucky for me, ’s true, but I . . .”
Tarly had heard enough. “Take his little finger. He can choose which hand. A nail through the palm for the other.” He stood. “We’re done. March the rest of them back to the dungeon, I’ll deal with them on the morrow.” He turned to beckon Ser Hyle forward. Brienne followed. “My lord,” she said, when she stood before him. She felt eight years old again.

Dude, that last guy was ARCHER! And he cut of his finger and put a nail through the other hand! And it was his archer...
 
That passage makes me think that the only difference between Lord tarly and gregor is intelligence. tarly is more clever in the way ne maims and tortures. I'm sure he would call his actions just, but...................
 
The one that grabbed me, and told me that A Game of Thrones was a very, very different kind of fantasy from what had gone before, was the chapter Bran II, when Jaime tosses little Bran from the window ledge:

"The things I do for love."

Cold, man. Cold.
 
The one that grabbed me, and told me that A Game of Thrones was a very, very different kind of fantasy from what had gone before, was the chapter Bran II, when Jaime tosses little Bran from the window ledge:

"The things I do for love."

Cold, man. *Cold.

I don't know. Jaime makes the point, and both of Bran's parents consider it: what would you do if it had been your child? If someone's child you didn't really know caught you, and their telling of the tale would have gotten your children and the woman you loved (and likely you) murdered in a swift heartbeat? True, Jaime doesn't have much fatherly feelings toward Cersei's brood, but there's still something there - and Cersei would have died with them. He did what he did for love, like he said, not simple, mindless, cold, brutal violence like so many other things that happen. True, it's probably the book's first "WHAT THE **** AM I READING?????" moment, but considering Jaime's motivations, I would hardly put it up there in coldness with so many other terrible ******* things that happen. It was love that motivated him.

Buuuuut maybe I am just a Jaime fangirl

OT: The treatment of the Unsullied was something just nuts. How they kill the babies in front of the mothers and then pay the master? ******* ouch.*
 
What Jaime did to Bran is up there on the list for me. Very cold. Very brutal. Unforgivable, even as I warmed up to this character along the way.

Eddard Stark's death. It took me a long time to accept this!

I'm sure there's many more and I feel a re-read coming along...
 
the sheer brutality of Renly's murder by Shadow-Stannis... that was a shocker...
 
After thinking about this long and hard, I think I'd have to go with what somebody said about Lord Tywin's treatment of Tyrion and Tysha. I mean, it was so considered and calculated, a demonstration to his son of where things stood between them... Can't help thinking that the guy got what he deserved in the end.
 
SPOILERS!!!

Most disturbing moment? There seem to be many disturbing moments that happen because of some very disturbing people.

Gregor Clegane and his dogs are disturbing. Rape, murder, attempted murder, assault, torture, robbery... and they're proud of every act.

Vargo and his goats are disturbing. Rape, murder, attempted murder, assault, torture, robbery, maiming, cannibalism... and they're prouder than Gregor's bunch.

Tywin Lannister and his progeny are highly disturbing. Murder, attempted murder, attempted infanticide, attempted fratricide, patricide, incest, treason... Tywin, Cersei, Jaime, Tyrion, and Joffrey are absolute degenerates.

Viserys was disturbing. Attempted murder, threatened infanticide, pedophilia, and he never even really got going!

Balon Greyjoy, his brothers, and his offspring are disturbing people. Murder, seduction, lies, murder, rape, treason, murder, and more murder.

Walder Frey is disturbing. Lechery, lust, treason, murder, murder, murder...

Petyr Baelish is disturbing.

Lysa Arryn and her son are incredibly disturbing.

Yet perhaps the most disturbing moments do not come from the antagonists, the villains, nor the degenerates. I've come to expect horrible circumstances for the Starks and their allies. Bran's defenestration, Eddard's execution, Robb's new head, Sansa's surprise marriage, the murders of the Cassels, Jeyne Poole's horrifying new life, Brienne's end.

Mayhaps the most disturbing moments come when the protagonists, the heroes, and the virtuous are put in untenable situations.

Catelyn sawed Jinglebell's head off.

Robb betrayed Walder.

Arya's prayers and career path.

The death of Qhorin.

Dany's attempts to save Drogo.
 

Similar threads


Back
Top